The Confederate flag issue rekindled

[Captain Worley]

I think the true purpose of the flag 'controversy' is to distract us while more nefarious deeds are done.

[Spartan]

P.S. The NAACP has been very cowardly about this whole issue. The agreement (read: compromise) was that the flag would be removed from the state house dome and put in a memorial on the state house grounds. That was supposed to make everyone happy. That occurred, and shortly thereafter the NAACP was upset and changed its mind. I don't get it. Why agree to the compromise if it's not good enough? For that reason, there are probably many people in our state who are against taking down the flag simply because they don't want to let the NAACP get what they want after going back on their word. That is not doing much to advance minorities, is it? It is creating divisiveness, and that is a shame. That is the last thing we need.

[krazeeboi]

P.S. The NAACP has been very cowardly about this whole issue. The agreement (read: compromise) was that the flag would be removed from the state house dome and put in a memorial on the state house grounds. That was supposed to make everyone happy. That occurred, and shortly thereafter the NAACP was upset and changed its mind. I don't get it. Why agree to the compromise if it's not good enough? For that reason, there are probably many people in our state who are against taking down the flag simply because they don't want to let the NAACP get what they want after going back on their word. That is not doing much to advance minorities, is it? It is creating divisiveness, and that is a shame. That is the last thing we need.

[g-man430]

Why? There has to be a story about the true reason for opposing the development. I see it here in Atl all the time, black and white communities, NIMBYs.

[krazeeboi]

^I think that, along with potential parking problems, is a legitimate concern. I'm assuming that so far, everything has gone smoothly in this regard?

[g-man430]

^^^Yes, indeed.

[waccamatt]

I thought the original agreement only had to do with the flag coming down from atop the dome, and not necessarily where it would be placed thereafter? I could be wrong about that, but that's what I thought.

[The_sandlapper]

I agree. It has different meanings to different people. I think it would be fine in museum's, private gallery, etc.. If that's your bag then that's your bag. State grounds is different story It was obvious that when the flag was put up it was just to spit in the eye of desegregating the state, (Of course this was not stated officially but it was on the capitol building in the 60's right around that time).

Anyway it does make the state look bad, it has influenced outside opinion of the state, businesses have noticed, the issue does seemed to be embedded in the idea that SC can't move forward becuase we can't let go of the past. Again the rest of the world is responding and saying we are not on SC time. I would hate to see how the issue would again drag a poor, disadvantaged state further down the cultural divide it has already established for itself, but that seems to be a way of life here. Again I would hate the negative publicity if would bring on the state and too the unfortunate collegiate institutions, however I would support the ban and encourage the NCAA to hold events elsewhere. (and for the record I would support bans in FL, AL, AR, TN, & MS since there state flags have similar, or inverted images of the confederate battle flag)

[monsoon]

It's my opinion the state could go a long ways towards settling this issue for both sides if it would do what NC does and fly the First National Flag of the Confederacy instead of the Confederate Battle Flag in order to honor its Confederate veterans. North Carolina flies this flag on its capital on Confederate Memorial Day which it has decided is May 10th.

The more commonly known battle flag was designed as an after thought because the First National Flag was so similar to the USA flag that troops would get confused in the field. Thus the second design was created specifically for fighting battles and was mostly forgotten until it was adopted by hate groups, namely the Klux Klux Klan which spring up in the 1920s. In the 1950s when racial tensions were getting really high because the Federal government decided it needed to end the racist policies in the South, the battle flag appeared on many state capitals, including South Carolina, as a political message they were not going to stand for it. The feds won on the civil rights issues, but the flag remains in SC as a relic of that era.

For the South Carolinians who truly want to honor the Confederate dead then I don't think they would have any problems with using the first national flag of the Confederacy. For people who truly want to see the battle flag taken down because it represents racism, then I don't thing they would have a problem either. For the rest, who see this as a Black vs White issue well, they can go to hell as they really are not interested in compromises on the issue and are in it instead for selfish reasons.

First National Flag of the Confederacy

[whitehourseview]

The more commonly known battle flag was designed as an after thought because the First National Flag was so similar to the USA flag that troops would get confused in the field. Thus the second design was created specifically for fighting battles and was mostly forgotten until it was adopted by hate groups, namely the Klux Klux Klan which spring up in the 1920s. In the 1950s when racial tensions were getting really high because the Federal government decided it needed to end the racist policies in the South, the battle flag appeared on many state capitals, including South Carolina, as a political message they were not going to stand for it.

[krazeeboi]

For the South Carolinians who truly want to honor the Confederate dead then I don't think they would have any problems with using the first national flag of the Confederacy. For people who truly want to see the battle flag taken down because it represents racism, then I don't thing they would have a problem either. For the rest, who see this as a Black vs White issue well, they can go to hell as they really are not interested in compromises on the issue and are in it instead for selfish reasons.

[Charleston's Son]

I am a 21 year old African American male, and I can honestly say I am sick of discussing this issue in my short years of political discourse. For lack of a better phrase, I am over it. The flag does not offend me if it is on someone's personal vehicle, or on some other piece of private property. This does not include subdvisions where other families may be offended, sorry. The rural areas perhaps, populated areas, NO. At least not in my backyard.

However our state's situation is totally different. In my opinion the solution is glaring and rather simple, take it down. The State Capitol is not private property, it is indeed public property and represents EVERY citizen in the Palmetto State. Stay with me. If you have a state that is roughly 30% African American, How in the heck do you fly a flag that symobically/historically represents/ed-dependent on your political slant-the state imposed oppression of the said group? The answer is easy, you do not! For those in the African American community and other groups that are apathetic about the issue, they probably feel the same about today's weather and their appearance. So those that make the argument "Some black people don't even care", forget about it 'tis not applicable. Those African Americans that do not care are in the minority of the minority and any person with some functioning neurons can deduce that the flag at the State Capital is inappropriate and misplaced.

This state needs to show respect to all of its citizens. Yes those Confederate Generals fought a war and should be honored, but in the appropriate setting. A previous poster suggested a Greenville museum that already honors that era... Yes, Go forth! It belongs somewhere like that. My ancestors-all of whom have been in SC since arrival to these shores-must be respected as well. As a product of my forefathers who endured generations of state-imposed segregation/oppression, I feel this is my way of honoring and respecting their lives and standing up for what they could not articulate. Get rid of it, it is ugly, and it hurts.

[monsoon]

Ironically, given what you said, if SC had not participated in the slave trade and instead operated a society based on today's morality, then your ancestors would have never come to this country and we would not be having this discussion because if you still existed, it would not be in SC. I think we get on dangerous ground when we try to judge people of centuries past based on the societal norms of today.

If we erase every public symbol of the Confederacy, and future generations have no idea what happened during those times, it is not unreasonable to believe that something like it could not happen again. It also eliminates from memory the struggles that a lot of people went through to end it. It is a very important part of SC's past and attempts to erase it, and/or be bitter about it, just isn't productive.

[Mr.Marc]

I think that at the very least we should put up a real Confederate Flag that actually pertains to SC (in the new location of course), as the one that flies today originated in Virginia, and very few South Carolinians fought and died under it. The 1st flag of the Confederacy (the stars and bars) seems appropriate to me.

You said you agree that a flag at a monument in a different location would be acceptable. Keeping in mind that the Memorial Park may still technically be "state" property -I honestly don't know who owns it- do you think the NAACP would agree with that idea?

[CorgiMatt]

As far as I'm concerned they should put it in a museum. Three of my great, great grandfathers, one of whom I have a picture, were Confederate soldiers. They survived the war, but they could have been killed. For that reason I do feel there is a place for displaying the battle flag under which they fought. The cause they fought for is a subject of disagreement among many, but they were pretty much in a situation in which, like what else were they going to do?... where else were they going to go?.... if they didn't suit up and go off to war.

While I've already stated that a museum would be fine with me, I do have an alternative solution that could possibly work. Personally, I think the Confederate battle flag should be not behind but attached to the Confederate monument if not placed in a museum. The problem is that the Confederate monument never should have been placed in its current position, where it blocks the view of the State House's front door and the George Washington statue as you drive down Main Street, and even while you're sitting at the stop light at Gervais and Main. Given what I have already stated, that the battle flag should be on and not behind the monument if it is not in a museum, I think the monument, flag and all, should be placed in one of the green squares south of the Capitol, the square just to the north of the Daughters of the Confederacy monument and south of the Strom Thurmond Statue, which faces south. The Confederate monument should face north. This to me would carry much symbolism. The Daughters of the Confederacy monument would be behind the Confederate soldier monument, for support of the Confederate soldier who has gone off to war, and Strom Thurmond is walking south as though coming back from Washington (very loosely interpreted as also coming home from the North), and the State House would stand between the North and all involved. All the senators (2?) who want to see the Confederate battle flag (a would-be official part of the Confederate soldier monument) from their offices can get first dibs on those offices, and one day when no one cares or even one day when they all look out of their windows and say "man let's put that flag in a museum," it will take its final resting place. Or maybe everyone would come to an agreement that the monument (monument = soldier and battle flag) shall forever be just fine between old Strom and the Daughters.

[Spartan]

Sure. It originates from the Army of Northern Virginia.

"The Army of Northern Virginia was the first to design a flag with the cross of St. Andrew, and Gen. P. G. T. Beauregard proposed adopting a version of it as the standard battle flag of the Confederate army. One of its virtues was that, unlike the Stars and Bars, the Southern Cross was next to impossible to confuse with the Stars and Stripes in battle. "

"What is now called the Confederate flag was never the official banner of the Confederate States of America, whose secession prompted the Civil War. It was actually a battle flag first used in 1861 by the Army of Northern Virginia, commanded by Gen. Robert E. Lee. Other military units followed suit, and eventually the flag

[Mr.Marc]

Thanks Spartan.

My take on this is that everyone should be educated on the flag's origin. Georgia has adpoted the original flag of the Confederacy and it seems to bother few there (this flag however, is their state flag). SC already has our own state flag and most "battle flag" supporters seem to think the confederate flag is superior to it.

Again, I think the people that claim to know the history of the flag should be eduated on its origin and maybe we could finally come to some kind of compromise. I would be in favor of removing the current confederate flag from the flagpole on the statehouse ground and perhaps placing it elsewhere on state house grounds near a confederate memorial. However, I also think the original flag of the confederacy should be placed next to the battle flag to ensure the TRUE history of the Confederate flag is known to all who would actually care to visit the monument(s).

[GvilleSC]

In a sense, the State House and grounds are a museum in their own right. The State House has much history itself and all of the monuments honor South Carolina's history. I say move the monument like CorgiMatt suggested, display both flags as HAMMETTM said, and display a plaque next to the flags that give's Spartan's historical information. It'd be a great history lesson for all of the visitors.

[Charleston's Son]

Ironically, given what you said, if SC had not participated in the slave trade and instead operated a society based on today's morality, then your ancestors would have never come to this country and we would not be having this discussion because if you still existed, it would not be in SC. I think we get on dangerous ground when we try to judge people of centuries past based on the societal norms of today.

If we erase every public symbol of the Confederacy, and future generations have no idea what happened during those times, it is not unreasonable to believe that something like it could not happen again. It also eliminates from memory the struggles that a lot of people went through to end it. It is a very important part of SC's past and attempts to erase it, and/or be bitter about it, just isn't productive.

[monsoon]

Metro, this sounds like a latent justification for slavery and is not working for me. This is another argument all together, but lets stick with the here and now. The fact is that you're here now, I am here now, and as I type people are probably coming in the United States right now, legally or illegally. We have to address this issue because it will not just go away. It is not about bitterness, it is about respect for all citizens of the state. We are in the 21st century, those that take pride in themselves know their history and all that is associated with it. The Swatiska is that pressure point for many Jews and it is not displayed at any New York City Gov't buildings. It represents state-imposed oppresion for that group and so much more. In knowing my history, the Confederate Flag represents the generational disenfranchised African American that had no choice. At last check, most museums were public and served the general purpose of preserving history and educating the public too, move it there, not the state capital.

[g-man430]

It's common sense that without NCAA tournaments here in South Carolina, were losing many tourism and economic dollars, so I don't see why our state government is so retarded that they can't figure that out and just take down the stupid flag.

[krazeeboi]

Ironically, given what you said, if SC had not participated in the slave trade and instead operated a society based on today's morality, then your ancestors would have never come to this country and we would not be having this discussion because if you still existed, it would not be in SC. I think we get on dangerous ground when we try to judge people of centuries past based on the societal norms of today.

[Spartan]

True, but our tourism industry is still doing pretty well inspite of that. Have you see the number of hotels going up in Myrtle Beach? Have you been to Greenville lately? Charleston? Its not hurting our business that much, though I will grant you that it would potentially be better without the boycott.

[interestedexpat]

Just a wee bit off topic. I find it ironic/sad/irritating that people on the board were unanimous in condemning Anderson County for reinstating the blue laws. I believe the words "backwards" and "cultish" were used. Or at least something like that. And yet the confederate flag issue gets serious discussion?

Anderson is backwards for blue laws, but South Carolina should seek informed compromise on the confederate flag? I don't know guys and gals. I'm inclined to agree with the guy who said let them fly it on their truck, but keep it off public property. For most of the world (and most South Carolinians) it represents a racist south that I don't want any part of.

I'm against the blue laws BTW. And I think the Anderson County Council will reverse its decision in the next couple of months. Will our State have the same guts to do the right thing about the flag controversy? I doubt it. We'll make some kind of compromise to appease those who want to look with fondness on a symbol that for most people represents repression.

[monsoon]

^Yes it was off topic as it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It seems to me there is a topic on this subject so please go post your concerns there.