2030 Transit Plan

[ChiefJoJo]

sales tax did just drop .25%

[monsoon]

The Observer has written an article on the recent decisions of the MTC. It focuses on some of the disappointment about the streetcar plans being effectively shelved. And while the article does get right that the CATS plan for building this line would not get federal money and thus is an unbuildable plan, it then goes on to suggest, by parroting Tober, the North line was only picked because only because the North has 3 votes. That's an amazingly bad conclusion given that the vote to build the train to the North was unanimous and this plan afterall was Tobers. What about the $2 billion of TOD already announced for this line?

The Observer out to focus on why Tober continues to waste money on the South LRT and why his staff proposes plans that can't get funding.

[dubone]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the political self-interest displayed by the nortern mayors should spur a reorganization of the MTC. Charlotte takes on the debt risk, has a significant percentage of the population, and a significant percentage of the tax proceeds, yet it has only an equal vote on this council. As a result, they forced a vote that lead to a significant subsidy for the Northern towns that is almost certainly beyond the tax proceeds they bring for the system.

I think metro's sentiments are very much the same as much of the leaders and residents in the northern towns. That is, that the projects in Charlotte, regardless of the billions of dollars in development, tens of thousands of riders, and major institutions served, are less important than the project that will help their property values and development in those towns. That is despite only hoping to get 3000-4000 riders after 20 years of service (roughly 2000-3000 new riders over the projected express bus riders). There is still resentment that the South line went first, and that the Northeast line is starting at the same time as their sacred line.

The streetcar serves neighborhoods that have a population greater than the northern towns combined, only they are of the demographics that actually ride transit, and are also within walking distance of the line, unlike most of the population in the north, who would use cars to go to the transit line. The streetcar neighborhoods also have more of an economic and social connection to the destinations on the line, causing more trips and all day use. The streetcar also serves areas that are challenged, allowing them to start turning around economically and socially.

The North line never has hopes for federal funding, but that doesn't faze its fans, it simply hardens them to their deserving of more of the local money, even though most of it is raised in Charlotte. The streetcar, and projects like it around the country, are the very subject of the federal small starts funding aparatus, but it hasn't started yet. Somehow, a one or two year delay in that funding system is expected to imply that the streetcar would never get federal funds, which actually puts it on equal footing with the north line, rather than making it less viable.

However, despite the haughtiness and selfishness of the northern town leaders, I actually fault two others equally for the failure of the streetcar plans. For one, the Mayor of Charlotte. The mayor attempted to be unifying and conciliatory in trying to avoid one area fighting over the funding. He basically bowed to the selfishness of the northern mayors. Instead of fighting to keep the money that Charlotte raises for the system in the city, he gave it away. He failed the city, his constuents.

Second, I blame the seemingly incompetent project manager for the streetcar project, Willie Noble. For one, he actually did use strong language implying that the streetcar would be built in the timeline always given (roughly 2009/2010). Although we all knew that might vary some based on slight budget changes, and federal funding timelines, none of us even had the slightest hint from the public meetings directed by him that it would be delayed by 10-15 years. If he had been honest with the public, there could have been a public campaign in support of this project. Hundreds showed up to the MTC meeting in support of this project after the MTC had already decided this. But it would have been almost certain that East Charlotte could have put more emphasis on getting streetcar over the Independence line if there had been open knowledge that it was also in jeopardy. Mr Nobel was terrible at communicating most aspects of the streetcar line to the public, with UP people often knowing more about the project from public documents than he often exhibited in conversation. He often needed to be corrected by the consultant working on the project. I'm certain that if he had been a more informed and passionate advocate for the project he was managing, he could have tapped into more support from the leaders and from the public.

The selfish northern leaders sure won, taking full advantage of the submissive Charlotte mayor. Next, we'll hear plans to cut out most of the Charlotte stations from the North line to save money (again, even though Charlotte is funding much of the line). I'm sure the MTC will again comply because of the same political realities.

Oh well, I don't need any of these transit lines for myself, so I guess I'll just revert to my own selfish desires and put my name in to repeal the tax. That is, after all, the only fair thing if everyone in the county reverted back to uninspired self-interest.

[Mobuchu]

And it was obvious at the MTC meeting that all debate and decisions were made by the members before they sat in front of the public. There were probably many arguments leading up to that meeting as it was all over the news. In order to appear as though the MTC does not make decisions based on politics it held those debates behind closed doors, and finally agreed in order to appear unnanimous.

[uptownliving]

The onus is really on the North line to secure funding this year. If that doesn't happen then expect to see the Center City streetcar jump back to the front with small starts funding.

[dubone]

Is that a realistic possibility, U/L? I mean, it almost sounds like MTC/CATS isn't even pursuing funding, as it isn't doing any more with design. Are you saying you would expect a new prioritization vote come up once Small Starts funding gets detailed and approved?

I kind of feel like CATS already knows what that funding structure would be, so I'd be surprised if federal approval for that really became the impetus for a change. However, I suppose if it went along with a failure to secure private funds for the North line, it might cause a reassessment.

[monsoon]

The Feds don't fund street car systems. This keeps getting lost in these arguments. The rules are written to specifically exclude them from funding. As far as I can see there is no Plan B for building it without federal funding as there was for the North line. If it were Plan #1 right now it would not be built.

As far as the Northern mayors looking out for their interests, that is what they are supposed to do. I am not sure why this is a surprise. The people here did not elect them so the people could pay taxes for the people in Charlotte. As it is, there is a 58 station rail/bus project and a 10 mile streetcar system proposed for the county. Only 5 of these stations will be in the northern towns so if anything they are being more than gracious and fair in their accommodations. They did afterall vote to build the South LRT first. Sadly Charlotte city manager and her transportation chief are responsible for wasting tens of millions of dollars on this project. It's not a good showing for the North making this project possible in the first place.

Of course, Charlotte is always free to go and build it's streetcar system without the MTC.

[uptownliving]

The Feds don't fund street car systems. This keeps getting lost in these arguments. The rules are written to specifically exclude them from funding. As far as I can see there is no Plan B for building it without federal funding as there was for the North line. If it were Plan #1 right now it would not be built.

[dubone]

Ironically, it seems that the only transit mode the federal rules are trying to exclude are commuter rail lines. Thus, no federal funds for the North line.

If the 60000 people along the streetcar route had the same vote on the MTC as the 60000 people in North Meck, such an ill-favored technology would not have first priority on CATS list.

[uptownliving]

Is that a realistic possibility, U/L? I mean, it almost sounds like MTC/CATS isn't even pursuing funding, as it isn't doing any more with design. Are you saying you would expect a new prioritization vote come up once Small Starts funding gets detailed and approved?

[monsoon]

....

From that quote it seems to me that the exact opposite of what you stated is true. That Small Starts is being designed specifically to fund streetcars...not exclude them....

[dubone]

Then why is MTC not pursuing small starts funding for the North line? It would seem that the people whose careers are oriented to the funding of these lines wouldn't spread the lines that the streetcars is a good candidate for small starts, but the North line isn't worth even submitting for funding. It would seem that if the inverse is true, they should fire all of their consultants and hire you to manage the federal funding process.

I'm not an expert on the federal rules, and certainly you might be right. But the professionals, and those that meet regularly with the FTA, are saying the opposite of your position.

[monsoon]

^There are several on the MTC that don't think CATS has given the CR line a fair showing with the Feds on this matter.

[A2]

Tober is stupid as ASS!!

The is one of the reasons Tober gives for backing off the Streetcar Line:

Because streetcars travel in traffic and replace existing bus routes -- and because future development can't be counted -- federal formulas don't favor them, said CATS CEO Ron Tober.

^^^That is the comment pulled directly from the "O". What in the HELL does he think has been going on with developer after developer (ie Grubb) banking on the Streetcar and the line. So, what makes it easiser to count on development from light rail lines then, Mr. Tober???Who in the hell is this NUT?!

I for one, wish this dumbass would pack up his dumbass bags, and get the hell out of Dodge.

Geeez what a freggin MORON!

(sorry for the vulgarity, I really am a nice guy. However, shear stupidity pisses me off, especially when it is coming from Tober's stupid ass lips )

A2

[dubone]

A2, that isn't his choice. That is the federal rule. None of us in the Charlotte region like that rule, as it hurts us as a fast growing region that wants to fit transit into it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[monsoon]

There are articles on line about the poor job that Tober did in Cleveland. I saw where it was referred to as a nightmare.

[A2]

A2, that isn't his choice. That is the federal rule. None of us in the Charlotte region like that rule, as it hurts us as a fast growing region that wants to fit transit into it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[uptownliving]

(sorry for the vulgarity, I really am a nice guy. However, shear stupidity pisses me off, especially when it is coming from Tober's stupid ass lips )

A2

[uptownliving]

LOL, did you bother to read the entire document. That is what the House proposed. The end result was this in the final bill

[monsoon]

.....

The bottom line is that its not easy to build transit lines, especially with all the red tape you have to go through at the FTA. What they are trying to do with Small Starts is make it easier to get money for projects that typically would not qualify under the New Starts program.

[monsoon]

Ok, but he is still Dumb as Ass.

A2

Somehow that does not surprise me metro. Now we are the bagholders left with this buffoon .

[ChiefJoJo]

Ironically, it seems that the only transit mode the federal rules are trying to exclude are commuter rail lines. Thus, no federal funds for the North line.

[A2]

^^^My problem is that they did not involve the public in what the process involved and instead decided to brush the money problems under the rug so to speak. This is a HUGE problem since Public perception is everything with massive projects such as the South Line. IMO, Tober gets an "F" for not being delicate to an issue that already has the media ready to jump on any news that has the words overbudget and behind schedule in it.

A2

[uptownliving]

Tober gets a raw deal here IMO. Everyone makes it sound like CATS just fumbled away $100M+ from pure incompetence. CATS has to follow (sometimes difficult to explain) federal rules... and part of that includes publishing cost estimates. Over time, these estimates change and the budget HAS to be dealt with in order to make the project work. Would you rather they just stop construction half way and give the other $200M back and have no rail line? I don't think anyone else would have done a substantially better job given recent market conditions.

[monsoon]

None of these are excuses for so much money being wasted on this project.