Mt Pleasant Is now South Carolina's 5th largest city

[Spartan]

I would say that Rock Hill's sprawl is tied to Charlotte to an extent, but that it is still its own place, and its own city. It has its own things happening, its own core, sprawl, etc. Mount Pleasant on the other hand is a direct extention of Charleston. It is a neighborhood just like West Ashley, not a "city" in the sense of it being its own place.

[teshadoh]

I would agree - based on most people's view of what the classic 'metro' is, Mt Pleasant is part of the Charleston metro while Rock Hill isn't quite part of the Charlotte metro. But that is obviously not what MSA or CSA definitions would say - but those definitions aren't often what most people consider a metro to be. The urbanized area definition mostly makes the case that Mt Pleasant is directly tied to Charleston, while Rock Hill still has their own urbanized area.

But Rock Hill also happens to be an exurb, & those are tricky. Camden, Laurens, Moncks Corner & Gafney are other existing or soon-to-be exurbs. Exurb's sprawl is centered around their self, but most often the growth is fueled by an outside force.

[Spartan]

Thats true, but the place is still identifiable as separate, which is the root distinctino between Rock Hill and Mount Pleasant.

[teshadoh]

Thats true, but the place is still identifiable as separate, which is the root distinctino between Rock Hill and Mount Pleasant.

I think we're all in agreement...

[goodbye]

I would agree - based on most people's view of what the classic 'metro' is, Mt Pleasant is part of the Charleston metro while Rock Hill isn't quite part of the Charlotte metro. But that is obviously not what MSA or CSA definitions would say - but those definitions aren't often what most people consider a metro to be. The urbanized area definition mostly makes the case that Mt Pleasant is directly tied to Charleston, while Rock Hill still has their own urbanized area.

But Rock Hill also happens to be an exurb, & those are tricky. Camden, Laurens, Moncks Corner & Gafney are other existing or soon-to-be exurbs. Exurb's sprawl is centered around their self, but most often the growth is fueled by an outside force.

I agree. The reason I feel that much (if not most) of Rock Hill's growth is closely related to the Charlotte boom, is beause of the talk about a possible rail between RH and Charlotte. If most people living in Rock Hill don't need Charlotte, a rail transit line would not be a necessity. I consider that type of growth not dissimilar to the growth around the Atlanta metro, where many towns have exploded into major exburbs as a direct result of growth in the big city itself. Obviously many people still want to live near and enjoy a big city without actually living there. Sprawl? I would say it is a form of sprawl, though I am not completely opposed to it in cases such as this.

[monsoon]

I agree. The reason I feel that much (if not most) of Rock Hill's growth is closely related to the Charlotte boom, is beause of the talk about a possible rail between RH and Charlotte. If most people living in Rock Hill don't need Charlotte, a rail transit line would not be a necessity. I consider that type of growth not dissimilar to the growth around the Atlanta metro, where many towns have exploded into major exburbs as a direct result of growth in the big city itself. Obviously many people still want to live near and enjoy a big city without actually living there. Sprawl? I would say it is a form of sprawl, though I am not completely opposed to it in cases such as this.

You are making assumptions that are not based in fact.

[goodbye]

I did not realize my comment was that far off of reality. I really have no problem with that kind of growth as long as Rock Hill continues to grow its urban core. I see the similarities between this growth and that of areas surrounding Atlanta. I am not calling it a carbon copy, but it definitely should be considered a reasonable perspective.

[scman473]

Rock Hill to Charlotte is Gwinnet to Atlanta.

[teshadoh]

Rock Hill to Charlotte is Gwinnet to Atlanta.

No - Carrollton or Cartersville. Charlotte & Atlanta are on very different scales, what would be Gwinnett would be the Pineville - Hwy 54 corridor. Gwinnett is firmly suburban / edge city, whereas Rock Hill is an exurban city.

[scman473]

No - Carrollton or Cartersville. Charlotte & Atlanta are on very different scales, what would be Gwinnett would be the Pineville - Hwy 54 corridor. Gwinnett is firmly suburban / edge city, whereas Rock Hill is an exurban city.

Yeah, your right and Atlanta is a lot bigger than Charlotte.

[distortedlogic]

Both Rock Hill and Mount Pleasant can give a vast majority of the credit to the booming larger cities they happen to be in reasonably close proximity to. If not for Charlotte's and Charleston's explosion of growth, these two cities/towns would be growing far less, since many of the new residents are seeking a different pace than the major urban cores of the larger cities while still enjoying living closeby. It is happening everywhere. Should we call it sprawl as some would? I am not so eager to answer that one right now.

This is very true. Some people seem to be saying that RH is not close enough or not related enough to Charlotte for it's growth to be considered part of Charlotte's growth. But I do not buy that at all. Another example is Spartanburg or Anderson. To say that one of these would be what ti is today and that all of it;s growth is due simply to the city itself is silly. Even though the people who put out MSA numbers don;t consider the three in the same MSA, it doesn't mean you do away with common sense. Spartanburg and Anderson would not be what they are without Gville, nor would their growth be what it is. And Gville would probably not be what it is without the other two as well. Similarly, it is silly to say that (most) of RH's growth is not due to Charlotte overspill. RH may now be building up it's core, and in the midst of forming it's own identity to seperate itself from Charlotte some. But most of it's growth to this point is due to Charlotte's growth. Otherwise we could also say that Mauldin and Simpsonville growth are not impacted by Gviile's growth since they have DTs and focuses of their own, or that Sptbg and Anderson growth has no overspill from Gville. Though Sptbg and Anderson have viable cities, they depend heavily on Greenville for growth and development. Imagine if all things were the same as they are now, but Gvill's city limits were drawn much larger so that it extended to encompass Pwdersville areas, and areas out to Taylors and wrapping around Greer. That might put the Gviile pop at 300k or more. Many people would then think of Anderson and Sptbg as just Gville suburbs, yet nothing would be any different. My point is, I think it is silly to say that RH is not largely dependant on Charlotte for development. Just as Mauldin, Simpsonville, and even Anderson and Sptbg are largely dependant on Gville. Just as Mt Pleasant and Goose Creek are largley dependant on Charleston. Just as N Virginia is largely dependant on DC, etc, etc.

[scman473]

Oh, I agree. Rock Hill is definitely growing due to Charlotte. Rock Hill is considered a suburb of Charlotte. Same goes with Gwinnet to Atlanta.

[monsoon]

My point is, I think it is silly to say that RH is not largely dependant on Charlotte for development.

Maybe you could give us some examples of the businesses and Universities that would not be in Rock Hill had it been further than 30 miles from Charlotte.

[sonofaque86]

RH is growing because of Charlotte also but i dont think it is totally dependant on Charlotte, but they are also forming their own identity not just as just one of Charlotte's other suburbs.

[krazeeboi]

Rock Hill to Charlotte is Gwinnet to Atlanta.

Oh NOT AT ALL. Gwinnett????

And I for one never said that most of Rock Hill's growth isn't due to its proximity to Charlotte, because I believe it is. However, Rock Hill has enough going for it that people can actually do quite a bit in Rock Hill itself without going to Charlotte.

As of now, I consider Rock Hill to be an emerging exurb of Charlotte, and not really a suburb. The suburbs are Fort Mill, Pineville, Matthews, Mint Hill, Concord, etc. Rock Hill and Gastonia in particular are still far enough removed at this point to not be suburbs.

However, I would think that the comparison of Spartanburg and Anderson to Greenville is a stretch. Spartanburg and Anderson are not emerging exurbs of Greenville. Spartanburg has enough of an identity and corporate base to not be reliant on Greenville for jobs--this is demonstrated by the breakup of the former Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA. Furthermore, Greenville's UA in 2000 was only about twice as large as Spartanburg's, whereas Charlotte's was several times larger than Rock Hill's. And Rock Hill has long had its own identity; it isn't something that's just occurred. The biggest identifier for Rock Hill in this regard is Winthrop University.

[Spartan]

This is very true. Some people seem to be saying that RH is not close enough or not related enough to Charlotte for it's growth to be considered part of Charlotte's growth. But I do not buy that at all. Another example is Spartanburg or Anderson. To say that one of these would be what ti is today and that all of it;s growth is due simply to the city itself is silly. Even though the people who put out MSA numbers don;t consider the three in the same MSA, it doesn't mean you do away with common sense. Spartanburg and Anderson would not be what they are without Gville, nor would their growth be what it is. And Gville would probably not be what it is without the other two as well. Similarly, it is silly to say that (most) of RH's growth is not due to Charlotte overspill. RH may now be building up it's core, and in the midst of forming it's own identity to seperate itself from Charlotte some. But most of it's growth to this point is due to Charlotte's growth. Otherwise we could also say that Mauldin and Simpsonville growth are not impacted by Gviile's growth since they have DTs and focuses of their own, or that Sptbg and Anderson growth has no overspill from Gville. Though Sptbg and Anderson have viable cities, they depend heavily on Greenville for growth and development. Imagine if all things were the same as they are now, but Gvill's city limits were drawn much larger so that it extended to encompass Pwdersville areas, and areas out to Taylors and wrapping around Greer. That might put the Gviile pop at 300k or more. Many people would then think of Anderson and Sptbg as just Gville suburbs, yet nothing would be any different. My point is, I think it is silly to say that RH is not largely dependant on Charlotte for development. Just as Mauldin, Simpsonville, and even Anderson and Sptbg are largely dependant on Gville. Just as Mt Pleasant and Goose Creek are largley dependant on Charleston. Just as N Virginia is largely dependant on DC, etc, etc.

You are off base. While the Upstate is tied together in many ways, Spartanburg and Anderson are by no means exurbs of Greenville. Spartanburg, like krazee said, has its own employment and corporate base. Spartanburg County nets a loss of about 900-1000 people to Greenville County. That is hardly a suburb, exurb, or whatever. Spartanburg is not reliant on Greenville for anything significant. Anderson appears to be slightly more reliant on Greenville, but I suspect that is largely because of Powdersville (an emerging suburb of Greenville) which is in NE Anderson County. If you were to redraw those lines for Spartanburg too, you'd find that Spartanburg's population would be about 150,000. Hardly a suburb. To people here, Greenville is just our neighboring city with whom we share many things- like our airport, and media outlets (TV/radio).

[goodbye]

You are off base. While the Upstate is tied together in many ways, Spartanburg and Anderson are by no means exurbs of Greenville. Spartanburg, like krazee said, has its own employment and corporate base. Spartanburg County nets a loss of about 900-1000 people to Greenville County. That is hardly a suburb, exurb, or whatever. Spartanburg is not reliant on Greenville for anything significant. Anderson appears to be slightly more reliant on Greenville, but I suspect that is largely because of Powdersville (an emerging suburb of Greenville) which is in NE Anderson County. If you were to redraw those lines for Spartanburg too, you'd find that Spartanburg's population would be about 150,000. Hardly a suburb. To people here, Greenville is just our neighboring city with whom we share many things- like our airport, and media outlets (TV/radio).

Perhaps this is the mentality that has kept Spartanburg growing at a much slower pace than Greenville for decades? I understand your thought-process, but I also personally know people who say they don't need Greenville and then refuse to visit, and are missing out on far more opportunities than they have in Spartanburg. I am not saying this to belittle Spartanburg, because I know from first hand experience that it is a growing city that is emerging with its own identity. I just think that it would be a critical mistake for Spartanburg to try to grow without harnessing the overflow of power in the much larger and booming neighbor city. That is where the Upstate Alliance organization has been a great help. But again, I say this to repeat my viewpoint that there can be little doubt that Spartanburg has reaped greatly from the successes of Greenville in recent years.

Spartanburg and Anderson are not exburbs though, that is definitely true.

[Greenville]

Just because a city/town is a suburb does not mean that it can't have its own identity. Alpharetta, GA is clearly a suburb of Atlanta, but it has a downtown area and has many things one can do without venturing into Atlanta. Same goes for Rock Hill. Nobody is saying that it has no identity, but you're kidding yourself if you think that an overwhelming majority of its growth isn't due to its proximity to Charlotte.

While the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA has been split since the 2000 Census, I will be shocked if it isn't recombined again by 2010. While Spartanburg and Anderson are clearly viable cities on their own, they are definitely reliant upon Greenville. It will be a shame if the Census numbers don't reflect that.

[monsoon]

Rock Hill has had its on identity long before Charlotte became a major force in the Carolinas. How many of you making comments here have actually been to downtown Rock Hill and are familiar with the local industry and Winthrop University?

Anyone making the statement that "Rock Hill is just a suburb of Charlotte" is either not knowledgeable of the area, or simply city bashing. The comparisons to the Atlanta metro area are really irrelevant to this converstation. Charlotte is not another Atlanta and the area is not developing in the same manner.

[krazeeboi]

Just because a city/town is a suburb does not mean that it can't have its own identity. Alpharetta, GA is clearly a suburb of Atlanta, but it has a downtown area and has many things one can do without venturing into Atlanta. Same goes for Rock Hill. Nobody is saying that it has no identity, but you're kidding yourself if you think that an overwhelming majority of its growth isn't due to its proximity to Charlotte.

Atlanta's sprawl has totally consumed Alpharetta and is thus a very inaccurate comparison. There is nothing to tell you that you've left Atlanta and entered Alpharetta except town limit signs. When one leaves Charlotte on I-77 south, the vastly underdeveloped land between it and Rock Hill clearly tells you that you've left Charlotte, and once you get to the Cherry Road exit in Rock Hill, you'll know you've entered into another urban area. Practically all of Alpharetta's amenities are directly tied to Atlanta in every way (and I know, as I used to visit Alpharetta occassionally to visit a friend who lived out there). Rock Hill would still have Winthrop, the local mall, its great parks system, etc. had Charlotte not existed, as it largely came into its own before Charlotte became such a powerhouse, as monsoon has stated. Alpharetta on the other hand never stood a chance. Again, Rock Hill's growth is directly tied into proximity to Charlotte, no question. But the fact that Rock Hill is a relatively established place with its own amenities and benefits independent of Charlotte is one significant factor in its appeal as an alternative to Charlotte.

[goodbye]

Rock Hill has had its on identity long before Charlotte became a major force in the Carolinas. How many of you making comments here have actually been to downtown Rock Hill and are familiar with the local industry and Winthrop University?

Anyone making the statement that "Rock Hill is just a suburb of Charlotte" is either not knowledgeable of the area, or simply city bashing. The comparisons to the Atlanta metro area are really irrelevant to this converstation. Charlotte is not another Atlanta and the area is not developing in the same manner.

So you are not willing to look at another perspective on the growth then? I never claimed Rock Hill is a suburb of Charlotte. I did state that much of Rock Hill's recent population explosion could reasonably be attributed to the big city just across the border. Whether someone believes it is a form of sprawl or not does not negate the possibility that Charlotte is spreading out enough to be compared with the Atlanta megalopolis in at least a small way. What I see possibly happening is a future meshing between Rock Hill, Fort Mill, and Charlotte, eventually creating a contiguous region of suburban development not completely unlike Atlanta, though obviously not of the same magnitude. Show me why this is unreasonable because I am in no way attempting to bash any city, just contribute another viewpoint.

BTW, I'm not arguing against any of these cities. Greenville has its fair share of sprawl in all directions - as does Columbia, Charleston, and etc. It has become a common theme all across the South.

[Spartan]

Perhaps this is the mentality that has kept Spartanburg growing at a much slower pace than Greenville for decades? I understand your thought-process, but I also personally know people who say they don't need Greenville and then refuse to visit, and are missing out on far more opportunities than they have in Spartanburg. I am not saying this to belittle Spartanburg, because I know from first hand experience that it is a growing city that is emerging with its own identity. I just think that it would be a critical mistake for Spartanburg to try to grow without harnessing the overflow of power in the much larger and booming neighbor city. That is where the Upstate Alliance organization has been a great help. But again, I say this to repeat my viewpoint that there can be little doubt that Spartanburg has reaped greatly from the successes of Greenville in recent years.

Spartanburg and Anderson are not exburbs though, that is definitely true.

It has nothing to do with any "mentality." I have also lived in Spartanburg for the majority of my life at this point. I am stating facts. We all know how great Greenville is. I am not denying Greenville's influnce on Spartanburg. Obviously we in the Upstate are all interdependant on each other, otherwise we would not have a CSA that encompasses all of us. I am, however, saying that Spartanburg is not reliant on Greenville like so many people seem to think. It is not a suburb in any way, shape, or form. Believe it or not, it has its own suburbs. Shocking to some I suspect. People have a tendancy to dismiss Spartanburg as a large suburb or an unimportant second city without investigating the facts first.

While Spartanburg and Anderson are clearly viable cities on their own, they are definitely reliant upon Greenville. It will be a shame if the Census numbers don't reflect that.

Since many people seem to think this, I want to know how, and based on what argument. Nobody has been able to prove this statement to me yet.

As for Rock Hill.... I think of it more as Marrietta, not Gwinnett. But thats not really accurate either. Atlanta has no real edge cities, where Charlotte is absorbing well formed towns.

[scman473]

I think Anderson is reliant on Greenville somewhat, but not Spartanburg.

[CorgiMatt]

I think Anderson is reliant on Greenville somewhat, but not Spartanburg.

I was in Anderson for a weekend in May and when I rode to Greenville that Saturday evening I was surprised to see how much country was along I-85 between Anderson and Greenville. And the exit to downtown Greenville from the interstate was lonely. Just me and my truck. This was 9 o'clock at night. By the way, I went into downtown Anderson before going to Greenville and there was not one soul anywhere. Just me and my truck. They must all go to downtown Greenville on Saturday night for their downtownin', and they must have already all been there when I got into downtown Greenville, because they sure weren't coming in off the interstate with me. Do the Spartanburgans come across the countryside from the other direction to Main Street Greenville as well?

[Greenville]

It's a lot more developed between Spartanburg and Greenville than between Anderson and Greenville (and closer, too). You can tell that Anderson is not linked to Greenville to the extent that Spartanburg is. More things are gradually developing between Greenville and Anderson (e.g., Powdersville and Piedmont), but it obviously has a long way to go.