Artist proposal for Plaza on Fayetteville Street

[ChiefJoJo]

I'll be at the meeting tomorrow - anyone want to meet there? Maybe get lunch before or after?

Justin, I'll be there too. Lunch before would be good for me. Anywhere but Times Bar--I ate there yesterday.

BTW, the young "let's do something daring" guy on WRAL was ChiefJoJo. Great seeing you out their J!

I had been a supporter of Plensa (was even there at Plensa's presentation in Feb), but sorta cautious after Allen's comments in the media came out (see above posts)... but when someone shoves a camera in your face, it kinda puts you on the spot. My overall feeling is so long as the view is untarnished (now i don't think it is), I'm all for doing something bold and daring. I agree that the wires looked very thin and I didn't even notice them until nightfall. I have to think this isn't the end of it. We need to raise more money and make this work somehow. In my gut I have this feeling that the city needs to somehow throw caution to the wind on this one...

[DanRNC]

If this city can't keep a patch of grass green they have bigger problems than I thought.

[Justin6882]

^Hahaha, my thoughts EXACTLY Dan - sheesh

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

If this city can't keep a patch of grass green they have bigger problems than I thought.

Agreed, however, what I refer to is the very loud calls the city will get from the suburban dwellers who will call to say if I can't water my lawn then you can't turn on a fountain or wast water on this project/grass/trees. Just like they did for Kane's North Hills fountains. Also the height of the trees when looking down the street is very important with the view of the new F. st.

[DanRNC]

My new slogan for Raleigh:

"Welcome to Smalltown, USA where Our Brains are Stuck in the Past".

[yoga]

My new slogan for Raleigh:

"Welcome to Smalltown, USA where Our Brains are Stuck in the Past".

[DanRNC]

Or:

"Raleigh: The City that Always Sleeps".

Ok thats enough.

[dmccall]

Did I mention that about 6 jumbo jets tried to land on Fayetteville St last night with those lights on?

[reed]

Meeker to recommend proceeding with artwork:

http://www.wral.com/news/9646997/detail.html

I guess there is still hope.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Meeker to recommend proceeding with artwork:

http://www.wral.com/news/9646997/detail.html

I guess there is still hope.

Did you see the results for this survey?

[bsutton1]

I did the poll earlier. I was surprised at the results.

Any word of what was said at the meeting?

[reed]

Didn't even notice the survey at first.

How depressing.

I'm anxious to find out what happened at the meeting, though.

[carynative]

According to WRAL, the council voted in favor of it! That is GREAT news!

[cophead567]

alright, that is amazing news. great to hear

"voted unanimously to proceed with......"

unanimous? didnt expect that at all

[Justin6882]

I was at the meeting earlier today - yep all the council members voted to send this to the arts commission with several questions and a directive to do this in 30-45 days instead of the normal 90. This doesn't mean it will definitely proceed (I don't think), but its a good sign they didn't just kill it right then and there.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I was at the meeting earlier today - yep all the council members voted to send this to the arts commission with several questions and a directive to do this in 30-45 days instead of the normal 90. This doesn't mean it will definitely proceed (I don't think), but its a good sign they didn't just kill it right then and there.

Great! Thank you for the update

[ChiefJoJo]

Allen pisses off arts community

They voted to send it back to the Arts Commission for direction.

EDIT: Justin's got it. I think this is the best outcome supporters could have hoped for given the circumstances... although I don't know what the Arts Commission will do about the "view corridor" thing.

[ncwebguy]

Russel Allen did not get his "let's kill this now before we waste any time on it" deathwish. Boo hoo. But this vote can not be taken as "approval" either. Didn't the chandeliers get approval from the arts commission only to be voted down anyway? I hope that showing how the Capitol to Memorial Auditorium vista was not only preserved but enhanced will help increase support on the council for the project.

I hope the demo was documented well enough and shown to Plensa to get his response. Did the "sample" reflect what he had in mind? Maybe he'll come up with other ideas based on the temporary installation and public response to it. This might lead to further cost savings:

- trees only used to hide the support poles

- Brick instead of grass on the plaza reduce maintenance costs (and use NC red clay)

- a reduction in the total lighting area, since the "small" net made a significant statement

If Raleigh is backwards looking and "always sleeps", the project down would have been voted down *without* the test. I hate that I didn't go last night to check it out -- I thought it would have been kept up till after tonight's council meeting. To go from "a majority of the council is against it before seeing the demo" to "unanimous approval after the demo shows an ability to admit they were wrong. Or the WRAL report saying it was doomed had bad information.

The NIMBYs who were wrong about the RBC Center and reopening Fayetville Street are now desperate to find something else to fight. After winning the chandelier fight, they feel empowered to take this down as well. It has nothing to do about "Raleigh style" and everything to do with "give up on downtown and don't tax my North Raleigh/Cary/Knightdale Wal-Mart-Applebees-I-don't-want-to-live-in-a-world-class-city style."

[ChiefJoJo]

I should say that about half the council seemed to be opposed to this proposal in it's current form, so this project should in no way be considered safe.

The Assistant City Manager showed a ppt slideshow with some new renderings and engineering drawings that are much closer to the real thing than what we've seen before. They also took several pictures along the "vista" to see the effects of the mockup. IMO you have to look very hard to even see it during the daytime and at night it only appears (as Meeker put it) as a strand of thin "Christmas lights" across the street. I hope they release the new renderings so we can all see the more detailed drawings and cost estimates.

[dmccall]

I didn't take today's meeting as a good thing at all. Yes, the Council didn't kill it today, but they essentially passed the buck to the Arts Commission with important meaning between the words: make drastic changes so the middle of the street isn't screwed up or else...

This is disturbing to me because they are basically going to have to ask Plensa to make a mirror image design instead of a focal point design. It's also disturbing because Councilors Isley, Taliaferro, and Crowder still bemoaned the obstruction of our new street. They did not clarify whether or not they meant visually or trafficwise. If they meant visually, it is proof that they aren't paying attention. Anyone who is bothered by the visual obstruction caused by the light strands is either myopic or hallucinating. At night, the glare from street lights and storefronts FAR dominates the dainty little light coming off of the grid. Traffic-wise is certainly a debatable aspect. I think negotiating 4 90-deg turns is annoying. However the assistant City Manager mentioned the risk of an 18-wheeler trying to go through there and hitting the light structures and supports. The poles and grid will be internal to the traffic square! Tsat 18-wheeler's driver would have to be WAY off course and illiterate, too. Why not turn off all of the streetlights on Capital Blvd. Some pilot might want to land there.

I think Plensa eventually will take the hard line and say "this or find someone else". Like I wrote Sunday night on Raleighing, the rejection of this specific Plensa design doesn't necessarily mean we can't have a cool art piece on F St. Perhaps there is a cooler design that fits into the space better. Perhaps this project ought to be placed between Sites 2 and 3 and be a showcase instead of fitting it into Hannover's setbacks. Perhaps we should look into an LED or LCD fountain. That's something nobody has. I dunno.

I do think that the Councilors handled today with class, though. They laid all of the groundwork for a future dismissal of Plensa by admitting their own fault that they didn't stress the preservation of the view before leading Plensa out on Fayetteville St that rainy day. Count me as one who doesn't think this will get done, but count me as one who does not say this necessarily means we are afraid of art or backwards.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Russel Allen did not get his "let's kill this now before we waste any time on it" deathwish. Boo hoo. But this vote can not be taken as "approval" either. Didn't the chandeliers get approval from the arts commission only to be voted down anyway? I hope that showing how the Capitol to Memorial Auditorium vista was not only preserved but enhanced will help increase support on the council for the project.

I hope the demo was documented well enough and shown to Plensa to get his response. Did the "sample" reflect what he had in mind? Maybe he'll come up with other ideas based on the temporary installation and public response to it. This might lead to further cost savings:

- trees only used to hide the support poles

- Brick instead of grass on the plaza reduce maintenance costs (and use NC red clay)

- a reduction in the total lighting area, since the "small" net made a significant statement

If Raleigh is backwards looking and "always sleeps", the project down would have been voted down *without* the test. I hate that I didn't go last night to check it out -- I thought it would have been kept up till after tonight's council meeting. To go from "a majority of the council is against it before seeing the demo" to "unanimous approval after the demo shows an ability to admit they were wrong. Or the WRAL report saying it was doomed had bad information.

The NIMBYs who were wrong about the RBC Center and reopening Fayetville Street are now desperate to find something else to fight. After winning the chandelier fight, they feel empowered to take this down as well. It has nothing to do about "Raleigh style" and everything to do with "give up on downtown and don't tax my North Raleigh/Cary/Knightdale Wal-Mart-Applebees-I-don't-want-to-live-in-a-world-class-city style."

Well said!

[Subway Scoundrel]

Looks great!

Hey, maybe since Larry Wheeler is such a very big supporter of this and most modern art. He can help find some of the money that will be needed for cost overruns? If I am correct he is the NC Museum of Art's director and has just gotten millions from the state budget to add the new NC Art Museum, maybe he can help?

He also has gotten millions from private investors including the land that the prison was on that the NCAM will take over. It was paid for by private funds.

[rjgeary]

I listened to the Council today, and heard six of the eight members say clearly, don't put a big (raised) plaza in the middle of our new street. In other words, don't mall up the 500 block with a 100-foot wide plaza so a big truck can't even get around it without being in danger of brushing the LED support poles. The biggest issue IS NOT the view (though from a distance it looks like one old set of CP&L poles never got put underground). The issue is the obstruction -- who told Plensa we wanted a mini-mall in the 500 block anyway? Nobody ever decided that, and now the Council is trying to quietly say to Plensa/Goodmon/Wheeler, if you were told by somebody that we wanted a big plaza there, we don't. So, I agree with dmmccall -- the instructions were to scale it back or move it somewhere else.

[DanRNC]

They stated the view was the issue which in the mock up was not affected. Now its that buses and trucks can't maneuver the street. Give me a break. Oh yea I forgot about the parades which everyone seems to be so obsessed with. If I was Plensa, Wheeler, and Goodmon I would tell this city to stuff it sideways. Personally I vote for a giant hay bail with rotating displays on top. For the upcoming fall you could stick a pumpkin on top, for winter a Christmas tree (oops that will be going down to Southpoint), easter eggs/crucifix for spring. In the summer you can lean on it while you suck down your good old-fashioned lemonade like granny used to make when she fed pigeons 200 years ago on F Street.

Low maintenance: the bird poop will be absorbed, no worries about dying grass here, trucks and buses can run right over it and easily moved to make way for all the parades going up and down the streets. Planes won't be able to see it either so we've eliminated that potential disaster. Actually it may help to slow down a plane landing on Fayetteville St. when the pilot mistakes all those gas lamps for runway lighting and decides to put er down on America's Main St.

Best of all, its not very daring, will appeal to the lowest common denominator, its not modern, and won't alienate all the ladies or war heroes from Smithfield, Dunn, Bunn, Lizard Lick, Timbuktu, BBQsville or North Raleigh.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I think negotiating 4 90-deg turns is annoying. However the assistant City Manager mentioned the risk of an 18-wheeler trying to go through there and hitting the light structures and supports. The poles and grid will be internal to the traffic square! Tsat 18-wheeler's driver would have to be WAY off course and illiterate, too.

The idea that someone would say that puzzles me. First of all, 18 wheelers are not allowed inside the beltline. Only and only if they have a delivery but you never see that. Most deliviers are done from warehouses in smaller trucks.

In fact, I have seen many 18 wheelers pulling a jack-knife turn on Wade Ave at the exit from Ridgewood shopping on the bottom side of Tripps because there is a sign before that place on Wade Ave. says "Trucks not allowed" (or there use to be). Plus, all deliveries are from the back of the building.

You never know but I am sure they would be aware. Everyone on this board, think about the last time you say a 18 wheeler inside the beltline and notice the next time you see one.