Artist proposal for Plaza on Fayetteville Street

[ChiefJoJo]

Alright, I will be there and will say my peace. Can't let gramma from Smithfield turn this into another version of the chandeliers (Las Vegas?). If this project is denied too, Raleigh will probably not do any significant, unique public art projects of in the next 10 years. The Plensa work is a must have.

Who's with me?

[ncwebguy]

Will there be something a little more than "this is just a dream/concept" presented? Or are they trying to kill it before the details are hashed out?

Is there a public comment period, or is it "the public can come and watch us talk". Where is this meeting being held? Council Chambers? Somewhere else?

[dmccall]

Not much to report about tonight's meeting. It was actually in a meeting room and was really a personal rehash of the project by Larry Wheeler. A Kimley-Horne engineer spoke and basically said 'yeah we have a lot of things to figure out.'

The only revelation of the night was that Plensa was asked to do something for Miami at the time we asked him and he turned Miami down for us!

In a couple of weeks Kimley Horne people and the lighting and water people for the Centenial project in Chicago will meet to try to work out some details. Things like how the grid is supported, how the water gets to the center axis, how elevations work out, how the grid handles birds and ice, and others will be discussed.

[ChiefJoJo]

I have an idea for the Plensa "City Square" piece. One of the problems we heard about last week was the issue of how to support the grid above the plaza. The engineer for KHA talked about supporting poles on the edge of the plaza near the green space or using cable attached to the surrounding buildings. To me cables are the best option as they would have the least visual impact. For the cables to work, deals must be signed to be able to attach the poles to probably 4 or more privately owned buildings around the square. That could be tricky.

The issue was also raised about protecting the beautiful vista we now have between the Capitol and Memorial Auditorium. I agree that this is crucial for the City Square to be approved. How high must it be to protect the vista? 30 feet? 40 feet? The right number is probably in that range. For the pole idea, that presents a big problem as one can imagine how big they will have to be to sufficiently support a rigid metal grid 40 feet overhead (utility poles are usually on the order of 20-25 feet tall for comparison). They might be bigger than utility poles, maybe 2 feet in diameter (the load is going to be much higher than a few traffic signals)... and nobody wants to create more visual clutter in our beautifully renewed vista. So what do we do?

I propose to combine both ideas by placing large poles (or even ornate concrete columns if the budget is available) outside of the square and the main vista (well outside where the roadway would be at the edge of the public right-of-way). These poles could be large enough to support the grid of LEDs, fountain water pipes, etc., and would also serve a dual purpose as supports for street lights and banners (MEAC tournament or announcing off-Broadway shows at the Progress Energy Center) along the exterior of the "pedestrian zone" at the edge of the plaza near. Cables would be attached to the top of the poles and suspend the grid in place at 30-40 feet (or whatever height is specified) above the main plaza green space.

Imagine large poles or columns behind the cyprus trees very close to the BB&T and BofA bldgs on each side instead of directly beneath the exterior of the grid (where those 2 people are on the right) of the green space...

There are many benefits to this idea.

1. Maintain the vista!

2. Reduce potential visual clutter of poles within the plaza.

3. Steel poles or concrete columns could serve dual purpose for street lights and announcement banners for city events, and could even be designed as individual works of art.

4. Eliminate the need for involvement of adjacent property easements or other legal agreements in order to attach cables to buildings. This could also serve make maintenance easier in the future.

5. Give the LED grid a sense that it is floating or suspended in air, rather than simply supported by poles.

I'd be interested to hear some feedback on this.

[Transplant]

Why are poles needed for the LED array? Why couldn't some Eye-bolts be used? Adjacent buildings would need to sign off, but I don't think that would be an obstacle.

As for the water feature..... not sure how important it is, but it seems to be the biggest challenge.

[ChiefJoJo]

Why are poles needed for the LED array?

It's rigid grid that is several hundred square feet in area, so it's going to be heavy regardless of the material used. The engineer from the Arts Commission said they were looking at poles or cables at this point to support the canopy. I thought cables might prove difficult if they want to permanently attach them to the bldgs with easements and such. This could be a waqy around that while reducing visual clutter of poles and even creating new art opportunities in the process.

[dmccall]

I'll bet that what ends up being proposed is four lightweight poles on the corners, inside of the bordering street, that act as fulcrums with a pulley on top (like a sailboat mast), with 4 heavy-duty superstructures built very close to the buildings, well outside of the vista, that are the main support units. Each of these will need to have a wench because the tension of the grid will need to change after it stretches with weathering. I don't think that the 4 building owners will allow a tie in, so we'll have to go with these superstuctures.

Getting the water up there is a neat trick. As JoJo and I discussed, they will probably need a 2-3" pipe. In order for the pressure to be equal, it would probably need to enter from above at the middle of the water wall, instead of at one end of it. The pipe can either come in from a side. The other option is an upside down, square U shaped pipe that comes out of the ground or a "T" shape from the middle. This is the easiest approach, but is visually cluttering. I don't think that a white, 3" pipe would obscure the vista too much, but would certainly be seen and not as fascinating as the water flying in from above.

[bdp]

how thin are the wires in the grid going to be? I kind of envisioned the pipe running up the inside of one of the poles on the corners, with a thin metal pipe that blends with the wire grid carrying the water to the center. I may have totally the wrong idea of what the wire grid will look like.

[Jones_]

My first thought was that a heavier, self-supporting square, or 4-square structure would be built and hung from a center pole passing through it. The wires would be arrayed within either the square or 4-square pattern. The weight of the water is substantial and at 62.4 lbs per cubic foot adds additional structural challenge to the settup.

[Justin6882]

I hope they can get all the planning and implement it for the $2mil allotted - does anyone have any idea how much something like this normally costs?

[Damien]

The Plensa presentation is on RTN right now. I thought I would post in case anyone wanted to watch it.

[Eastwestrob]

The Plensa presentation is on RTN right now. I thought I would post in case anyone wanted to watch it.

Please update us ASAP for those that can't watch it

[Subway Scoundrel]

I'll bet that what ends up being proposed is four lightweight poles on the corners, inside of the bordering street, that act as fulcrums with a pulley on top (like a sailboat mast), with 4 heavy-duty superstructures built very close to the buildings, well outside of the vista, that are the main support units. Each of these will need to have a wench because the tension of the grid will need to change after it stretches with weathering. I don't think that the 4 building owners will allow a tie in, so we'll have to go with these superstuctures.

Getting the water up there is a neat trick. As JoJo and I discussed, they will probably need a 2-3" pipe. In order for the pressure to be equal, it would probably need to enter from above at the middle of the water wall, instead of at one end of it. The pipe can either come in from a side. The other option is an upside down, square U shaped pipe that comes out of the ground or a "T" shape from the middle. This is the easiest approach, but is visually cluttering. I don't think that a white, 3" pipe would obscure the vista too much, but would certainly be seen and not as fascinating as the water flying in from above.

I thought you went to Dental school ? Looks like you are also a plumbing professional !!

[Tayfromcarolina]

I like. 1 mile beam into the air.

[dmccall]

I thought you went to Dental school ? Looks like you are also a plumbing professional !!

Well I do fight moisture every day!

[Damien]

Please update us ASAP for those that can't watch it

There wasn't anything new. It was a re-run of the original presentation, but I never got a chance to see it so I was glad I caught it. However, it did give me a better understanding of the project. I might have read about a stage being incorporated in the project in this forum, but I didn't recall it. There is a permanent stage in the proposal made out of the same black granite that the road will be, which he elaborated on slightly. I like the way he played up the kid interaction part. He said it would be a great place for concerts, but also a great place for young kids to play around and pretend they are putting on a play, which I know I would've loved when I was a child. I also liked the way Plensa handled the questions, especially the question from the lady about the light beam interfering with air navigation. He told her that pilots use gps technology now instead of landmarks/lighting, but she just kept harping on it. Sounds to me like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about trying to stir up controversy just for the sake of argument. He seems like a charming gentleman, and hopefully this project won't go the way of the chandeliers.

[bsutton1]

Any updates?

[ChiefJoJo]

New article on Plensa's revised design here. It looks like they are going to use a fountain instead of a waterfall and a smaller grid. On a personal note, it looks like they are going to use a version of my idea by suspending the grid very high over the capitol vista with poles on the plaza's edge. The article mentions the council will consider this in August... fingers crossed!

[DanRNC]

What is the extension they are talking about? Is that further down to the Progress Energy PE Center (future sites 2 and 3)? $10 million seems to be a large amount.

[Justin6882]

hmm the whole point of the cascading water was that it was more natural than shooting water out like a fountain. I really hope this thing turns out the way Plensa had envisioned and not some watered down version...but at this point it does look like they are trying to make it happen, just within the engineering restraints that it has.

[ncwebguy]

I don't think we have to worry, but I hope this doesn't look as bad in 10-20 years as the "fountain" that was in front of Briggs Hardware/Raleigh City Museum, or the reflecting pools/fountains in front of the Wake County Courthouse.

How much water is going to be propelled? Will it be misty or filtered so as to be clear?

Lights one foot apart should be able to create the kind of letters and numbers shown in the time/temperature example in some of the early sketches. It could also do some neat patterns, or event specific things like MEAC tournament or Stanley Cup Playoffs.

$10 million is a lot to continue fayetville street from what will be the south end point to Raleigh Memorial, especially since part is going over the Marriott/Site 1 parking deck. Unless there was an "exit" off Fayetville Street just south of Plensa Plaza into and out of the below ground deck. Extending Fayetville Street between sites 2 and 3 shouldn't be too expensive either, since it is just a parking lot now. Finish with a "circle" in front of the theater complex, or to a T with South Street, might cost some, but not that much.

[ChiefJoJo]

What is the extension they are talking about? Is that further down to the Progress Energy PE Center (future sites 2 and 3)? $10 million seems to be a large amount.

Yeah, that's it. The entire 1-400 blocks of Fayetteville St was "only" $9.3M. I think part of the relevance is how the cost of the art project and the actual street extension will be divided up. The $10M was probably a conservative figure to account for some amount of plaza work before the money for Plensa's art was donated by Goodmon. There are also some sketches from the south end master plan that showed a significant plaza between Lenior and South St in front of the PE Ctr. That could be part of the extra funding.

[avery]

I looked at the front page of the N&O this morning and they had a shot of Fayetteville Street on it. I was surprised to see how many street lamps there were.

Are they going to have to rip up pavement to put in Plensa's plaza or is it going to be located where construction has not yet started?

[Justin6882]

located where construction hasn't started - between Two Hannover and BofA Plaza.

[sax184]

New article on Plensa's revised design here. It looks like they are going to use a fountain instead of a waterfall and a smaller grid. On a personal note, it looks like they are going to use a version of my idea by suspending the grid very high over the capitol vista with poles on the plaza's edge. The article mentions the council will consider this in August... fingers crossed!

Shhh....don't tell any senior citizens from Smithfield...