West End Summit update

[ATLBrain]

Do you know if ASP has obtained a sky plane exposure variance? His buildings are shown as being built up to the street, but in the CF district, you are only allowed 65' tall from the street, then a building must step back 1' for every 1.5 vertical feet you go up. Also, does he need an FAR Variance? It looks like a lot of development for a somewhat small site.

Ok... I plead ignorant. You inside-baseball guys know the language, but I don't. What is a CF district? Where is it in Nashville?

[Richard Lawson]

Ok... I plead ignorant. You inside-baseball guys know the language, but I don't. What is a CF district? Where is it in Nashville?

CF means core commercial frame. It dictates how the buildings can be constructed. If you go back to the images on this site, you'll see that at the top of the building there are floors that are stepped, almost wedding cake like. That's required in the zoning for skyplane setbacks. Most of the zoning in the central business district is core commercial or CC and the restrictions are different. It allows much higher denisty that CF, making projects like Signature tower possible. CF is outside the central business district as well as the others.

As to an earlier question on floor area ratio, I think the site can handle it but I'm not certain of the site's size. I tried getting on the planning department's maps but it wasn't working tonight, at least not for me anyhow. I think the setback is satisfied by the sort of conclave aspect of the design, which you can't see on the image on this site. Go to http://www.aspcompany.com/featured/westend.htm can see it.

[NewTowner]

As to an earlier question on floor area ratio, I think the site can handle it but I'm not certain of the site's size. I tried getting on the planning department's maps but it wasn't working tonight, at least not for me anyhow. I think the setback is satisfied by the sort of conclave aspect of the design, which you can't see on the image on this site. Go to http://www.aspcompany.com/featured/westend.htm can see it.

That picture also reveals a large pickup/dropoff sidewalk cut-through which the previously released renderings had been conspicuously blurry on. That's a comic tragedy for li'l ol' me, who had previously praised the WES for having scrapped plans to include such an obvious concession to drive-thru "culture", at the palpable and inexcusable expense of the pedestrian. That courtyard is actually not a courtyard at all, but an insulting and depressing NASCAR-style pitstop.

It's a crying shame. I hope people don't let the height of this project trick them into supporting such an aggressive anti-pedestrian, hostile streetscape maker such as this. I withdraw my support of the West End Summit, until the sidewalk is restored in plan and the courtyard becomes a courtyard for actual real-life human beings.

Designerbee, please take a little inspiration from actual Courtyards and Plazas--as seen in the upcoming News Place project in Savannah or any twinky Tuscan hill town--and make the argument you know you need to make. I have faith in your abilities, and while I know you may have your hands bound and your mouth gagged because people are often handicapped by the realities of the workplace, I hope you are trying your best to give us a more intact public realm (until you are removed from the project and shipped off to Los Angeles, of course).

[ATLBrain]

CF means core commercial frame.

OIC, thanks for the explanation. I remember reading something when the Corinthian Lodge sold to ASP that he then had enough land to build up to 900,000 sq. ft.. But that's all I recall.

[Richard Lawson]

I did a story on NashvillePost.com that throws some questions into the Palmer deal. I could post the whole thing here if allowed. But I'm not sure I can based on rules. It's a subscription site. Here is the link for those who do subscribe. I'm not certain who is moderating this but if they tell me I can add the full content I will.

[Rural King]

Due to copyright laws UP does not allow posting of whole articles, rather we allow forumer's to post commentary about an article and then provide the link to said article. This avoids any issues with copyrights and sends traffic, and thus ad/subscription revenue, to the source site if folks wish to read the article.

Here are the board rules:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=260

[Richard Lawson]

Due to copyright laws UP does not allow posting of whole articles, rather we allow forumer's to post commentary about an article and then provide the link to said article. This avoids any issues with copyrights and sends traffic, and thus ad/subscription revenue, to the source site if folks wish to read the article.

Here are the board rules:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=260

Understood about the copyright laws. Our site though is $117 per year. And for us, there really isn't an issue with copyright as long as permission is given by us. In this case, I'm one of the ones running the operation.

However, here is the link

http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2006/5/5...al_or_just_talk

[ATLBrain]

Richard, could you boil it down for us? Why is WES in doubt? How much financing does ASP have? How open/public is he being with his WES information? He strikes me as the antithesis of Giarratana (ASP is private and TG takes the PR route to the max). Is that a fair assessment? Obviously, ASP has had much success with other buildings, he would know if he's ready to make a public announcement about WES groundbreaking wouldn't he?

[hayesmw]

CF means core commercial frame. It dictates how the buildings can be constructed. If you go back to the images on this site, you'll see that at the top of the building there are floors that are stepped, almost wedding cake like. That's required in the zoning for skyplane setbacks. Most of the zoning in the central business district is core commercial or CC and the restrictions are different. It allows much higher denisty that CF, making projects like Signature tower possible. CF is outside the central business district as well as the others.

As to an earlier question on floor area ratio, I think the site can handle it but I'm not certain of the site's size. I tried getting on the planning department's maps but it wasn't working tonight, at least not for me anyhow. I think the setback is satisfied by the sort of conclave aspect of the design, which you can't see on the image on this site. Go to http://www.aspcompany.com/featured/westend.htm can see it.

When I looked at the website, it appears that the eastern most building is built up to the street. In the CF zone, this would be required to step back after 65' vertical. Am I wrong here?

[ATLBrain]

That picture also reveals a large pickup/dropoff sidewalk cut-through which the previously released renderings had been conspicuously blurry on. That's a comic tragedy for li'l ol' me, who had previously praised the WES for having scrapped plans to include such an obvious concession to drive-thru "culture", at the palpable and inexcusable expense of the pedestrian. That courtyard is actually not a courtyard at all, but an insulting and depressing NASCAR-style pitstop.

NT, I think this is the older rendering. As such, we haven't seen a clear rendering of the latest, tweaked version of this project. I'm still unsure what the plaza will look like now. In the latest (fuzzy) one, it looks like the dropoff function is served by a cut off and entrance on the 17th Ave side.

[smeagolsfree]

According to the Tennessean, Alex Palmer now has the financing approved for the WES... He may very well have a office anchor and is being quite about it.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...21/0/BUSINESS09

[hayesmw]

According to the Tennessean, Alex Palmer now has the financing approved for the WES... He may very well have a office anchor and is being quite about it.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...21/0/BUSINESS09

Maybe its not BBS. Their lease does not expire until 2010. Also, many of the dates do not match. ASP Co. does not have a contractor on board, yet they stated they'll start construction in June. How could they start construction so soon w/o a contractor? Hopefully ASP is delivering this in 2008 with a new tenant from out of town. It would be a shame to loose BBS from downtown. Also, w/o the height variance outlined in the article, this could really be challenging to build. neighbors of the project might not want something that big so close to them. I do hope it gets built though and that the lot east of the symphony is developed with office. It would be great to see both of these buildings go forward.

[bluff2085]

This project looks awesome! How far will the building be separated from the downtown core?

[smeagolsfree]

Maybe its not BBS. Their lease does not expire until 2010. Also, many of the dates do not match. ASP Co. does not have a contractor on board, yet they stated they'll start construction in June. How could they start construction so soon w/o a contractor? Hopefully ASP is delivering this in 2008 with a new tenant from out of town. It would be a shame to loose BBS from downtown. Also, w/o the height variance outlined in the article, this could really be challenging to build. neighbors of the project might not want something that big so close to them. I do hope it gets built though and that the lot east of the symphony is developed with office. It would be great to see both of these buildings go forward.

That does seem odd. Richard Lawson is doing a story at the Post to address the same question. One possible explanation would be that he starts the hotel component first before the office component is started. Who knows what he has going on behind the scenes.

To answer the question from bluff2085 as to how far the project sits from the CBD.... The CBD sits between roughly 2nd and 9th ave. This project is on 16th and West End about a half mile form the core on the other side of the interstate.

Check the development maps out on the UP home page too. Go to the Nashville map and that will give you an idea of where the project is compared to the other projects going in town.

[ATLBrain]

It won't be completely by itself out on WE. These buildings will join the existing Palmer Plaza on block away, the u/c Adelicia (and a possible twin) three blocks away, another proposed 10-story bank building one block away at 19th and WE, 9-story Roundabout Plaza two blocks away, and a cluster of 6-12 story buildings scattered around the surrounding blocks.

[ATLBrain]

I do hope it gets built though and that the lot east of the symphony is developed with office. It would be great to see both of these buildings go forward.

Michael, I thought you were involved in the project adjacent to SSC. Or is that the Central Parking property? Do you know anything (that you can say publicly) about plans for the CP lot downton. Richard Lawson speculated that CP may be needing space soon.

[nashvol85]

It won't be completely by itself out on WE. These buildings will join the existing Palmer Plaza on block away, the u/c Adelicia (and a possible twin) three blocks away, another proposed 10-story bank building one block away at 19th and WE, 9-story Roundabout Plaza two blocks away, and a cluster of 6-12 story buildings scattered around the surrounding blocks.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/nashv...nt=P1010176.jpg

Here's a nice little view of the cluster of buildings (on the left) that lead up to the Palmer Plaza/new WES area.

[NewTowner]

NT, I think this is the older rendering. As such, we haven't seen a clear rendering of the latest, tweaked version of this project. I'm still unsure what the plaza will look like now. In the latest (fuzzy) one, it looks like the dropoff function is served by a cut off and entrance on the 17th Ave side.

That would be SOOOOO much better. The problem is, the rendering on their website was portrayed as being more accurate (in some specific geometric sense, I confess)--and I cannot help but wonder if the NASCAR plaza-slaughtering West End pitstop was intentionally fuzzed for the public rendering in order to, in the words of Ice T, keep our heads ringing. Palmer may have remembered the frustration Giarratana had to contend with regarding the original mockup of the Signature and its sidewalk destroying Drive-Thru--which as you notice, Tony G has thankfully removed (Bless You, Tony!).

I admit, I write with a lot of smack, but in this case I humbly offer a plea to the good folks at Urban Planet:

If it does indeed turn out that the West End Summit has forsaken a marvelous opportunity to create a cafe plaza between its supposedly retail-grounded towers, and replaced it with a large scoop of roadway which will sever West End's already pitiful sidewalk and make the whole scheme look like an anti-urban redneck 90s office park, please please please:

Protest it, and demand better. For Nashville! We must remember that architecture, while it can be compelling in the air, meets the human experience at the street.

[ATLBrain]

[url="http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/nashvol85/?action=view

[nashvol85]

Thanks for the link. This area will fill-in nicely in the next few years.

The twins of WES would go just to the right of the Darth Vader-looking building on the right (that's Palmer Plaza which stands across West End and down a bit from where WES will go).

Adelicia will go just beyond the green roofs in the middle foreground next to the jagged roofed, 9-story, white apartment building (almost dead center of this photo). There's talk of adding a second tower on the DT side of Adelicia.

The green roofed building is Wesley place I believe. It's a parking garage with condo units on top and retail in the bottom if I'm not mistaken. The jagged roofed building is the apartment tower "20 and Grand" (for its street location). I haven't heard news about a second tower...would this be closer to Music Row or would it be closer to 21st?

The three towers in the gulch will go in the middle area to the right of the DT cluster here (just past the angular BMI building which is white and only about 8 stories tall). Encore DT (in sobro) would be visible from this angle just to the right of Bellsouth... and behind the Gulch Triplets (Icon, Terrazzo and sliver).

The Gulch tripletes should start to nicely fill in the 10-12 block rift between the mid/high rises on West End and the high rises downtown. I think it's only a matter of time after that happens before you see either the Broadway car lots sell their land for development or find a way to develop their land while maintaining a car dealership on site (personally I think that would be very interesting).

It looks like this photo was taken from the Vandy Medical Center.

I took it this summer from the 10th floor of Medical Center East, South Tower (before it even opened). My Aunt is a secretary for some of the doctors that were moving into that building, so I got some special access to the top floor...it's got a great view!

[ATLBrain]

I haven't heard news about a second tower...would this be closer to Music Row or would it be closer to 21st?

Music Row

The Gulch tripletes should start to nicely fill in the 10-12 block rift between the mid/high rises on West End and the high rises downtown.

That's partly why I'd prefer to see the new CC go in the gulch. With the two purported 40-50-story hotels adjacent to it, that would be a nice start.

[Richard Lawson]

Michael, I thought you were involved in the project adjacent to SSC. Or is that the Central Parking property? Do you know anything (that you can say publicly) about plans for the CP lot downton. Richard Lawson speculated that CP may be needing space soon.

Active this morning. I read over The Tennessean story this morning. I think what I wrote for NashvillePost forced the issue. Note that he said he has a financing commitment, that is, the banks will loan money if certain conditions are met. Only Palmer knows the conditions.

[Hankster]

Active this morning. I read over The Tennessean story this morning. I think what I wrote for NashvillePost forced the issue. Note that he said he has a financing commitment, that is, the banks will loan money if certain conditions are met. Only Palmer knows the conditions.

When I read that two banks have committed to financing, that sounds like a done deal to me. How do you know there would be conditions needed to be met? I guess one condition would be the approval of the skyplane variance, which I would assume will not be difficult to obtain. Is there any reason to still be skeptical of this project breaking ground?

[Richard Lawson]

When I read that two banks have committed to financing, that sounds like a done deal to me. How do you know there would be conditions needed to be met? I guess one condition would be the approval of the skyplane variance, which I would assume will not be difficult to obtain. Is there any reason to still be skeptical of this project breaking ground?

A lot of construction loans have conditions. For example, the bank says sure we'll loan the money if you have 50% of your condos presold. That was the condition for Viridian. Signature Tower is less so. There may be similar conditions on the condo portion of one tower in addition to a condition to that there be some level of leasing on the office tower.

[hayesmw]

Michael, I thought you were involved in the project adjacent to SSC. Or is that the Central Parking property? Do you know anything (that you can say publicly) about plans for the CP lot downton. Richard Lawson speculated that CP may be needing space soon.

Nope, not me. Barry Cos out of Atlanta. It's the family that owns most of CPC's stock that owns that parcel.

Given CPC's financial situation, I can't say that I'd see them go into a new building anytime soon. I think they own their HQ as well, so I'd assume for now they are staying put.

Can't say anything about the lot other than I would expect BBS to make a decision about this parcel, WES or staying in their current building in the next 1-50 days.

Should be soon.