Virginia Beach Light Rail and Transit

[scm]

Yes and no. In theory one way traffic is fine. However, take a trip to Old Town Fairfax. They recently converted BACK from one way traffic to two way traffic in their "DT" district.

What this would look like is very much what Wilson and Clarendon Boulevards look like between the Rosslyn and Clarendon Metro stations. I would start it where Broad runs into VB Blvd around Witchduck. The problem east of Pembroke is that you run into PA High School -- and putting it north of the HS would cut their baseball field in half (given the clout of their baseball program, no way) and cut the campus off from the football field. That is probably a non-starter. What might work is buying the strip mall that Michael's is in and demo'ing it, and put the start of a one way Broad through there.

It would completely change the face of Town Center -- and is a great potential to make it much more urban -- zero setback, higher density -- push the Town Center look N of VB Blvd, and stretch it all the way to Witchduck. Great idea, wonderful vision, with marvelous potential. Probably why it will face tough sledding in VB.

[urbanvb]

Kinda off topic but I always thought Broad Street would be a great place for development but the large apartment complex there will probably keep that happening for many years to come. As for them tearing down the old KMart strip center I highly doubt it. They are in the midst of expanding the center and are building an addition beside Michaels.

Edited July 27, 2007 by urbanvb

[mistermetaj]

I thought a while back there was a conference held at PA in which plans for moving the school out of that area were brought up? Anyone remember anything like that or am i just falling for whishful thinking?

What this would look like is very much what Wilson and Clarendon Boulevards look like between the Rosslyn and Clarendon Metro stations. I would start it where Broad runs into VB Blvd around Witchduck. The problem east of Pembroke is that you run into PA High School -- and putting it north of the HS would cut their baseball field in half (given the clout of their baseball program, no way) and cut the campus off from the football field. That is probably a non-starter. What might work is buying the strip mall that Michael's is in and demo'ing it, and put the start of a one way Broad through there.

It would completely change the face of Town Center -- and is a great potential to make it much more urban -- zero setback, higher density -- push the Town Center look N of VB Blvd, and stretch it all the way to Witchduck. Great idea, wonderful vision, with marvelous potential. Probably why it will face tough sledding in VB.

[Padman]

It has been discussed, but only at a preliminary level. Ultimately, PA High School probably will be replaced or rebuilt elsewhere, but not anytime soon.

[Henry_Ryto]

The City of Virginia Beach would never do it: too much tax revenue generated by Pembroke Mall.

[scm]

The City of Virginia Beach would never do it: too much tax revenue generated by Pembroke Mall.

LIke I said, requires some vision as to what revenue would be created by the entire district, stretching from town center to Witchduck could create. No one said "remove" Pembroke Mall - they just said re-configure part of it. It would be some years before it happened, but compare the Ballston-Clarendon corridor for tax revenue and you can see the long term advantage.

Where vision is required, VB leadership is asleep at the switch. Knee jerk, dismissive reactions are the norm. At least Norfolk had, and continues to have, a vision, and the leadership to get things done. Maybe there is hope in next year's mayoral race........

[urbanvb]

Things are already underway to a small degree to stretch our DT. Take for instance TC West which has been idle for awhile but the listings for the property are on the MLS, last I checked. It's probably only a matter of time especially as TC enlarges such as the newly announced tower on the Pilot property as well as block 11. Also the prospective urban Walmart which will be on the fringe. I can imagine especially after TC has been built out the values of nearby strip centers (such as on VB Blvd) will go through and roof and some may go the way of the wrecking ball for more urban type structures. Also, down Columbus heading due west there are a lot of possibilities. There is the small mobile home park just beyond the post office as well as a small parcel across from the 7-11. The grid goes down a bit further west where some industrial type business are located that one day may be attractive to developers. All this to say I think the urban growth will probably indeed go west since east and north of TC are pretty built out and properties south are already building up and out (Bonney Road ala CityView).

Edited July 29, 2007 by urbanvb

[scm]

Things are already underway to a small degree to stretch our DT.

I agree, Urban -- I think the real gem of this is Euclid Road and Pocahantas Village. The Kellam Road crossing of the tracks gives N-S access, w/o the Pembroke mess. I may have to start keeping my eye open for sales in there.

Anyone know if there is a proposed LR stop between Newtown and the eventual one at Town Center? Will TC be the first when VB eventually gets on the LR bandwagon?

[RJWGMU]

Anyone know if there is a proposed LR stop between Newtown and the eventual one at Town Center? Will TC be the first when VB eventually gets on the LR bandwagon?

I don't know if the city has expressed any ideas for stops, but It would probably stop at Witchduck (I think there should be a parking deck there) and then proceed to TC. Without a parking deck at Witchduck, the traffic on that road will remain horrible. Then I am sure after Pembroke, the next stop would be Rosemont and/or Lynnhaven, then Hilltop, then Convention Center, then Ocean Front.

That's how I would do it anyway

I still say they forget the NS Tracks and build an entirely elevated system down the middle of VB Blvd for most of the way, with pull offs for local stops. Then they could have express trains that stop at the Oceanfront, Pembroke, DT Norfolk, and Naval Station Norfolk, as well as other trains that stop at every stop. The express trains would be more likely to persuade the "is it quicker to drive or ride" commuters, making them more willing to give up their car for a straight shot.The money has to come from somewhere though and I don't know where!

Edited July 30, 2007 by RJWGMU

[Henry_Ryto]

I agree, Urban -- I think the real gem of this is Euclid Road and Pocahantas Village. The Kellam Road crossing of the tracks gives N-S access, w/o the Pembroke mess. I may have to start keeping my eye open for sales in there.

Anyone know if there is a proposed LR stop between Newtown and the eventual one at Town Center? Will TC be the first when VB eventually gets on the LR bandwagon?

The 1999 proposal had a stop at Witchduck Road.

As that would be in walking distance of my apartment, I'd certainly use it.

[urbanvb]

I still wonder where a stop would be located in Pembroke as I don't really know of any available space near the proposed line.

[vdogg]

Dick's parking garage immediately comes to mind. Pedestrian bridge connects it to the rest of TC, and the added benefit of having a light rail stop immediately adjacent to an underused parking garage. That location seems to make the most sense to me.

[scm]

Dick's parking garage immediately comes to mind. Pedestrian bridge connects it to the rest of TC, and the added benefit of having a light rail stop immediately adjacent to an underused parking garage. That location seems to make the most sense to me.

I think you put it east of Market (the street just to the east of Dick's) -- right behind that building on the lake. There is a pretty nice sized area behind the Circuit City bldg (south of the tracks) that could be cleared for bus stalls and kiss and ride lanes, with easy access from Independance -- also keeps the trains from blocking Independance when stopped east bound. Easy pedestrian access right up Market to TC, or a TC circulator bus that loads at the bus stalls. And you still have the city owned Dick's garage for limited (read expensive) commuter parking.

[vdogg]

Beach ranks near bottom of 50 cities for public transit

OMG.

According to the survey, fewer than 1 percent of Virginia Beach workers used public transportation, which placed the city third from the bottom in rankings. Even in Houston, known for its eight-lane highways, more workers rode public transportation.

[gosm]

Beach ranks near bottom of 50 cities for public transit

I just wanted to say that I feel that public transportation in this city is terrible.Maybe more people would take the bus to work or to the mall,if they ran more.I live near Pleasure House Rd,and there are no buses after 6pm.I own a car,but would love to save the gas money by taking a bus.I know alot of people who would do the same,but for those who dont own cars and would like to visit our new town center area after dark,they are out of luck,if they dont live in certain areas of the city.Thanks for letting me rant.

[urbanvb]

I agree Gosm. Unfortunately our current system leaves a lot to be desired. One can only hope things get better especially as Norfolk goes forward with its LR. It sounds like VB is really considering linking it with TC so that maybe that will really push our officials to do more. Oh and welcome to the forum.

[urbanfan]

Beach ranks near bottom of 50 cities for public transit

OMG.

Interesting how they mention Houston, which just now is enjoying the benefits of Light Rail. Less than two years old. Maybe even younger. Wonder where they would be without it. Time to jump on board VaBeach.

[Henry_Ryto]

At last Wednesday's RAC Transportation Committee meeting, Linwood Branch pushed an idea from Virginia Beach Vision. They want the Dome site to serve (in part) as a transportation hub, with it as the eastern terminus of a LRT/BRT line coming down the Norfolk Southern ROW. They want in in the pending Resort Master Plan; the only question was whether it could now be put in with it already being RFPed. (Staff is suppose to be looking into it.)

It should come up at this Thursday's (3 P.M. at the convention center) meeting of the full Resort Advisory Commission. As a Commissioner, I'll certainly push for it to be LRT-specific.

Linwood wanted the Resort Area business associations to chime in on it. If enough big guns (i.e. Vision, VBHMA, etc.) line up behind this, LRT in Virginia Beach will almost certainly become a reality.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Henry_Ryto

[urbanvb]

Thanks for the update.

[Henry_Ryto]

At last Wednesday's RAC Transportation Committee meeting, Linwood Branch pushed an idea from Virginia Beach Vision. They want the Dome site to serve (in part) as a transportation hub, with it as the eastern terminus of a LRT/BRT line coming down the Norfolk Southern ROW. They want in in the pending Resort Master Plan; the only question was whether it could now be put in with it already being RFPed. (Staff is suppose to be looking into it.)

It should come up at this Thursday's (3 P.M. at the convention center) meeting of the full Resort Advisory Commission. As a Commissioner, I'll certainly push for it to be LRT-specific.

Linwood wanted the Resort Area business associations to chime in on it. If enough big guns (i.e. Vision, VBHMA, etc.) line up behind this, LRT in Virginia Beach will almost certainly become a reality.

I just got out of the RAC meeting, and very little happened. Councilman Uhrin assured us that Transportation would be covered in the Resort Master Plan.

I'm fustratated with the degree that they seem they think they can fudge the "LRT or BRT?" question. The system you choose is going to affect routings and land uses in the Resort Area.

I had a speech ready to go on the need and why it should be LRT. I didn't get to give it.

[vdogg]

Is light rails next stop Va. Beach

The plot thickens!

City leaders are looking at Norfolk

[vdogg]

Beach light rail deserves second chance

It is no coincidence that Norfolk

[7citiesVA]

Who actually believes that Virginia Beach will hop on board with this light rail? Should it be left up to the citizens to vote or should the city lead on this one?

I hope Va Beach hops on board and I think they will eventually but how long will they wait?

The benefits of running it all the way to the oceanfront down the ROW is a no brainer now that there is a town center, but I just hope that its not 10 years from now that they decide to act. In 1999 i can say maybe Va Beach wasn't ready, but whats the excuse going to be in 2008. Opportunities like this require action NOW, not putting it on the back burner to see if Norfolk will be successful. (If they hop on board, there is no way norfolk or va beach will be unsuccesful with light rail)

In 1999 i think the mentality of the Va Beach citizen was alot different than it is now. There is more of a big city mentality now. I love this area but sometimes i get sick of waiting for it to make progress and watching cities like Charlotte and Atlanta boom only makes it worse. I know we have just as much potential as they have, maybe even more.

Its bigger than light rail at this moment for me. I feel this is whats going to make or break this metro. The other metro's are kicking our a** at this point. Norfolk and Va Beach are the leading cities for Hampton Roads. (I wish they were one big city) If the light rail is extended and the line is a success/or even if it isnt, this will be the beginning of change as far as the cities not being looked at as separate but as one entity in a physical sense and mentally. The rest of the 7 cities will only follow suit bringing about a more unified region which will open the doors to bigger and better improvements/opportunities/developments.

Edited November 15, 2007 by 7citiesVA

[vdogg]

Tommorrow in the city council meeting there will be a public hearing on the acquisiton of the norfolk southern right of way. Also, on the consent agenda, there is an ordinance to be voted on that states "The acquisition, by agreement or condemnation a portion of city property for public transportation, linear park, multi-use trail, public utilities, parking and other public purposes of the abandoned Norfolk Southern Railroad right-of-way from Newtown Road to Birdneck Road" .

I'm getting a good feeling about this, because this is a very strongly worded ordinance that basically states that "You will either sell it to us at a reasonable price, or we'll take it from you". This is the first serious step, beyond lip service, that i've seen the beach take towards transit along this corridor. I'm usually wary about the use of eminent domain, but this is one instance where they are actually using that power for its intended purposes.

[urbanfan]

Tommorrow in the city council meeting there will be a public hearing on the acquisiton of the norfolk southern right of way. Also, on the consent agenda, there is an ordinance to be voted on that states "The acquisition, by agreement or condemnation a portion of city property for public transportation, linear park, multi-use trail, public utilities, parking and other public purposes of the abandoned Norfolk Southern Railroad right-of-way from Newtown Road to Birdneck Road" .

I'm getting a good feeling about this, because this is a very strongly worded ordinance that basically states that "You will either sell it to us at a reasonable price, or we'll take it from you". This is the first serious step, beyond lip service, that i've seen the beach take towards transit along this corridor. I'm usually wary about the use of eminent domain, but this is one instance where they are actually using that power for its intended purposes.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree. This is going to mire down into a huge legal battle. Of which NS has the money to do it right. Even with eminent domain, the beach doesn't get that land for free. It has to pay fair market value for the property. That's where the issue is right now. NS feels that the beach is not offering a fair market value for the property. The beach does. So we go to court. What happens if NS wins. The beach has to pay the amount that NS was shooting for all along or drop the eminent domain suit, and they are out more tax payer dollars to pay for the court costs and lawyers. However, there is still a chance that VB would win the dispute, but you're still out a hefty sum of taxpayer dollars to pay for the court costs and lawyers. I think VB would be better served trying to meet NS in the middle.