Triangle relocation thread

[Movingsouth]

Wow, what you described is exactly what I am looking for and Cary seems to be what I am not looking for. It looks like the children, once they hit college age, move out in Cary. Living in CH may allow my daughter the opportunity to continue to live with us during college and not feel that she needs to move out. I'm saying that now because she's only two . I may feel different in 16 years. Also I think SAT scores do mean a lot, although not everything. The scores are very similar to where we live (NYC northen suburb). Thanks for the site.

Basically everywhere in the country that is a city in its own right rather than a bedroom community like Cary will have higher crime than Cary.

Here's how I look at it: Chapel Hill is a lively, dense college town with students, nightlife, etc... plenty of places and opportunities for people to meet and interact in an unscripted, interesting manner. My guess is that may have something to do with it. Not that Franklin Street caters to a rough crowd in any way or students are criminals. Whereas most of Cary is a sprawling suburb where you live "within 20 minutes drive from everything!" but close to nothing, and the streets look pretty but are sterilized and monotonous to the point of nausea. (I personally wouldn't want to live in most Cary neighborhoods.)

Nothing illustrates this better than, Cary's age/population distribution - a huge dip in the 18-25 range:

Versus Chapel Hill's - a huge spike in the 18-25 range.

At a place like Meadowmont or SV what you're basically getting, is an (improved, more walkable and interesting) slice of Cary, within Chapel Hill's school district and with better access to interesting cultural amenities of the town. I'd guess that there's not a whole lot of crime at either one, but you'd have to call or visit the Chapel Hill PD to get a for-sure answer.

As for schools, read this N&O Article about area SAT scores and decide for yourself whether you think SAT scores mean anything or not.

[RaleighRob]

It's also interesting to look at those 5-15 age ranges. Cary's has wild spikes and fluctuations there....certainly indicative of the horribly crowded schools. (I imagine most of suburban Wake County's looks the same.) Chapel Hill on the other hand has a much more stable line in that range...which would be a clue that schools have more time to adjust for needed growth. (I bet ITB Ral's line in that range is similarly stable...as compared to North Raleigh & Cary.)

[sax184]

OK, I got the Chapal Hill tax rates directly from Orange County for 07. The total including CH city, county tax and school district tax is .016135 per $1 or 1.6755/$100. Vehicle tax is the same. I'm glad to hear the tax rate is on assessed value that will help, but I am still estimating around $8,000 for a 600K house, not too bad. It's true Raleighrob that the increased servives so outway the extra in property tax. I'm glad to know you feel that way about Chapel Hill.

Also, if anyone has heard anything about those other neighborhoods in Chapel Hill that I mentioned, Lake Hogan Farms along with two new communties, Claremont and Winmore please let me know.

Thanks again and a realtor search will be my next move.

[orulz]

Just FYI - you may want to check out this thread on another forum to hear some comparison/contrast between Meadowmont & Southern Village. Here's my take:

Similarities:

They are the two best examples of New Urbanism in the triangle, and both more urban and denser than basically anything Cary has to offer. That means less privacy and less yard space, but more parks and much more opportunity to spontaneously interact with neighbors. Both have elementary schools on-site, with greenway trails leading right up to them so kids can walk / bike to school.

Differences: SV:

+The commercial area of SV has a few more amenities - a church, Weaver Street Market (Co-op organic grocer), the Lumina (independent 8-screen stadium seating movie theater), concerts & movies on the Village Green, etc.

+Lots of young families in SV.

+SV is somewhat less expensive than Meadowmont

-SV is further from town and further from the rest of the Triangle.

-Some folks on city-data say that the build quality is lower than Meadowmont, be your own judge though

Meadowmont:

+Has a larger grocer (Harris Teeter - though IMO it's just typical upscale chain grocery fare, not quite as "cool" as Weaver Street"

+Closer to RTP, Durham, Raleigh

+Build quality is supposedly somewhat higher than SV

+Future transit stop?

?According to city-data, somewhat older/more mature than SV (older families, empty nesters)

-Village center is smaller: has restaurants & grocery, that's pretty much it

-More expensive

I would also encourage you to be flexible as far as square footage is concerned. 2300 vs 2700sf isn't a huge difference. Ask yourself if, with a family of three, you really need that extra space. It sounds like you'd spend more of your time out and about the neighborhood at SV or Meadowmont than you would at a fortified cul-de-sac subdivision in Cary so perhaps you wouldn't miss the space at all.

[ncwebguy]

I went to Lake Hogan Farms a couple of weeekends ago to pick up an air conditioner off Craigslist.

It has *no* retail amenities, but does have a pool, tennis courts, etc. And it isn't really near anything either.

I think it is on a bus route too, but it seemed kinda cul-de-sac-ish. There were some roundabouts that were for traffic calming, not that there was much traffic to begin with. There are a lot of common areas, but that does put space between houses, so it is a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.

The sad thing with Cary, Apex, and Morrisville is they *could* have had several communities in the style of Souther Village, Meadowmount, etc. But they *love* the "shopping here, houses there" model of Kildare Farms, Preston, Crossroads, Beaver Creek, etc.

[Movingsouth]

Thanks so much for all this insight. I am a little confused about Lake Hogan Farms (already built) and Winmore (under construction) being in Carrboro. Under the MLS is states that they are all in Chapel Hill. Also the zip comes up 27516 and not 27510. Is Carrboro furthur away from RTP? Any advantage to living in Chapel Hill vs Carrboro?.

Thanks once again

Just FYI - you may want to check out this thread on another forum to hear some comparison/contrast between Meadowmont & Southern Village. Here's my take:

Similarities:

They are the two best examples of New Urbanism in the triangle, and both more urban and denser than basically anything Cary has to offer. That means less privacy and less yard space, but more parks and much more opportunity to spontaneously interact with neighbors. Both have elementary schools on-site, with greenway trails leading right up to them so kids can walk / bike to school.

Differences: SV:

+The commercial area of SV has a few more amenities - a church, Weaver Street Market (Co-op organic grocer), the Lumina (independent 8-screen stadium seating movie theater), concerts & movies on the Village Green, etc.

+Lots of young families in SV.

+SV is somewhat less expensive than Meadowmont

-SV is further from town and further from the rest of the Triangle.

-Some folks on city-data say that the build quality is lower than Meadowmont, be your own judge though

Meadowmont:

+Has a larger grocer (Harris Teeter - though IMO it's just typical upscale chain grocery fare, not quite as "cool" as Weaver Street"

+Closer to RTP, Durham, Raleigh

+Build quality is supposedly somewhat higher than SV

+Future transit stop?

?According to city-data, somewhat older/more mature than SV (older families, empty nesters)

-Village center is smaller: has restaurants & grocery, that's pretty much it

-More expensive

I would also encourage you to be flexible as far as square footage is concerned. 2300 vs 2700sf isn't a huge difference. Ask yourself if, with a family of three, you really need that extra space. It sounds like you'd spend more of your time out and about the neighborhood at SV or Meadowmont than you would at a fortified cul-de-sac subdivision in Cary so perhaps you wouldn't miss the space at all.

[sax184]

Some more notes: I agree with RaleighRob on the tax issue. If you go visit Cary and look at Wake County schools, you will eventually find kinds studying in trailer/modular units on the fields outside the schools. Oh, and your kids might have their school change every couple of years.

Basically, the difference between Orange County (Chapel Hill) and Wake County (Cary) is this- both are interested in providing "the good life" with economic opportunity, good public services, good schools, etc. The primary difference is that in Orange County, people accept that taxes are the dues you pay to live in a civilized society, where in Wake County, there is a considerable knee-jerk anti-tax movement which believes you can bury your head in the sand and not worry about the costs of infrastructure, particularly in regards to education and transportation.

So the two counties have different problems. Orange County has higher taxes, less commercial tax base to take the heat off residential taxpayers, and increasing income inequality between rich and poor. Wake County has the latter, too, but it is not nearly as sharp. Wake County has more affordable housing, but it also has greater problems with commons issues. (i.e. water conservation, how to plan and fund schools appropriately, public transportation) But your taxes are lower in Wake, and that's all that matters to some people.

In short, if I had your $$$ and could pick, I'd live in Chapel Hill/Carrboro instead of Cary, and I'd live in Southern Village first, then Meadowmont. I wouldn't live in Lake Hogan Farms. It's like all the suburbanism of Cary that bores people to death coupled with the higher property taxes of Chapel Hill/Carrboro/Orange County.

I'd also have a realtor show you some of the subdivisions on N Greensboro St in Carrboro from Estes Drive up to Fayetteville Rd, and within Chapel Hill, The Oaks and the Greenwood area.

[RaleighRob]

Thanks so much for all this insight. I am a little confused about Lake Hogan Farms (already built) and Winmore (under construction) being in Carrboro. Under the MLS is states that they are all in Chapel Hill. Also the zip comes up 27516 and not 27510. Is Carrboro furthur away from RTP? Any advantage to living in Chapel Hill vs Carrboro?.

Thanks once again

[Movingsouth]

Thanks, that's what I found out. In the same subdivision you can have a CH address or a Carrboro address. There is a huge difference in the zip codes though. The housing in zip 27510 is much, much less and the grammer and middle schools are different than CH (27514,16). We want to stay in within the 27516 zip and something close to 40 or 54.

Chapel Hill and Carrboro are two separate towns whose borders have scrunched up so close that:

A) You can literally walk from the downtown of one to the downtown of the other.

B) They share a school system. (Currently separate from Orange County but that may change someday.)

C) They also share a bus system, water/sewer system, and (I think) EMT service.

D) Zip codes overlap between the borders of the two. In fact, because of this, I think a member of the Carrboro Town council even has Chapel Hill for his street address!

So don't feel bad if confused. For commuting to RTP, I would look more at a home's proximity to I-40 (and other major highways like NC 54, NC 86, or US 15-501), more than whether it has Carrboro or Chapel Hill as the address.

As far as living in one vs the other...not much difference really. Same school system and other basic amenities. Carrboro has a tad more "bohemian" feel than Chapel Hill...but that's about it. Half of the time I'm over there, the only way I can tell whether I'm in one or the other is due to a different font on the street signs!

[sax184]

Thanks so much for all this insight. I am a little confused about Lake Hogan Farms (already built) and Winmore (under construction) being in Carrboro. Under the MLS is states that they are all in Chapel Hill. Also the zip comes up 27516 and not 27510. Is Carrboro furthur away from RTP? Any advantage to living in Chapel Hill vs Carrboro?.

Thanks once again

[Movingsouth]

Thanks for your reply. I've spent some time doing online research on Carrboro and there is definitely more crime their than CH according to City-data and Sperlings best places. Also some of the grammer and middle schools are not rated nearly as well as those of CH according to greatschools.com. I have also read that Carrboro will have its own highschool for 2007/08 open to all but seniors this first year. I am also concerned, going by greatschools.com, that East CH High is rated not as well as CH High. I saw that Meadowmont goes to East CH Highschool. Is there any substantial difference that you are aware of? Should I have any concern, especially since my daughter is only two. I am especially "sensitive" to this because I was a police officer in a terrible school district with some really rough neighborhoods and I saw first hand what happens to these kids. Thankfully, I never lived there. I am thinking something in the 27516 zip Chapel Hill/Carrboro subdivision may be an option if we cant find anything in SV or Meadowmont. They have only four homes currently listed.

Thanks again

Chapel Hill is probably 6-9 minutes shorter drive time to RTP than Carrboro, depending on where you are. A drive from Southern Village to RTP will be the same as most of Carrboro to RTP, though, because you need to get through the Fordham Blvd/Manning Drive intersection at rush hour. It's a logjam because it's the closest highway intersection to UNC Hospital.

Chapel Hill is a little closer to the rest of the region. Carrboro is flatter and easier for walking/biking. Both have very good schools, same water, and free transit. Chapel Hill has better transit (bus) access to RTP, Raleigh and Durham. Chapel Hill is more expensive, but both towns have strong home appreciation rates.

[sax184]

Thanks for your reply. I've spent some time doing online research on Carrboro and there is definitely more crime their than CH according to City-data and Sperlings best places. Also some of the grammer and middle schools are not rated nearly as well as those of CH according to greatschools.com. I have also read that Carrboro will have its own highschool for 2007/08 open to all but seniors this first year. I am also concerned, going by greatschools.com, that East CH High is rated not as well as CH High. I saw that Meadowmont goes to East CH Highschool. Is there any substantial difference that you are aware of? Should I have any concern, especially since my daughter is only two. I am especially "sensitive" to this because I was a police officer in a terrible school district with some really rough neighborhoods and I saw first hand what happens to these kids. Thankfully, I never lived there. I am thinking something in the 27516 zip Chapel Hill/Carrboro subdivision may be an option if we cant find anything in SV or Meadowmont. They have only four homes currently listed.

Thanks again

[Movingsouth]

Thanks for the sound advise and links. Newsweek had an article where they ranked E Chapel Hill HS #37 in the country and Chapel Hill HS in the 70s, so I quess I have nothing to worry about.

That's all the questions for now :-). I'm sure I will have more in the future.

I apprecitate everyones insight.

I think you may be reading a little too much into the numbers at this point.

First, schools. Chapel Hill and Carrboro are in the same school system, and have many of the same programming approaches (small high schools rather than big, 3000 student behemoths, etc). If there is a difference in quality between the two CH high schools, it is probably that one of them is better than 99.8% of the high schools in state of NC, and the other is better than 99.7% of them. To me, it's kind of like arguing how much car performance one loses by switching from a Ferrari to a Porsche. They're both incredible cars, and it's hard to tell which one is better. Carrboro High School is brand new and I think everyone expects it to perform similar to the other two high schools.

On the crime side of things, it seems Carrboro does have higher crime stats, but I can't remember anyone choosing one town over the other (Chapel Hill or Carrboro) with safety from crime being the deciding factor. I think the general perception is that both places are pretty safe. Maybe ask some residents when you come visit.

Other resources:

www.chapelhillnews.com

www.carrborocitizen.com

Good luck!

[Movingsouth]

Hi, I found theses comments about Chapel Hill on a blog. Is there any merit to this?

Thanks

The town must do something about the increase in gangs in town, this county, and in Durham. My child tells me that her high school has several gangs in there and that other local high schools also have seen an increase in gangs. There are black, white, Hispanic, Asian, and all girl gangs increasing all over town and making there way into the lives of residents here. Crime is on the increase and at times it does not feel as safe as it once was.

Also, there should be a little more control on those students from Carolina that love to urinate and abuse our property on Franklin Street on weekends and before and after football games. Police should crack down more on alcohol and drug use among those students and limit the hours that students can get drunk before they have football games on campus. Students need to respect the community more and business owners on Franklin Street more. Each year, you get these lude wannabe gangsters and more and more rude students with each freshman class. I hope they do not turn this town into a ghetto.

Other than these things, this is a nice place.

[RaleighRob]

Heh, no offense friend, but you're from New York and you're worried about gangs in North Carolina? Chill...don't believe everything you read.

I mean every city and larger town in the country these days has some sort of nominal gang activity. It's inevitable. Fortunately, it's also usually restricted in scope to a few bad neighborhoods and most everyday citizens notice no effect of it. Heck, even white-bread suburbs like Cary and Knightdale have reported some activity (usually some graffiti and so forth) but most of us wouldn't even know about it if it hadn't been in the news.

Now the second paragraph of that quote has some valid points about wild college kids acting crazy at times...that's expected in the Triangle to a certain degree when you consider we have like 10 colleges and universities here. But if I recall the neighborhoods you mentioned you were looking at in the Relocation Thread, you're gonna be no where near most of the collegiate action anyways.

Heck, I live three blocks from NC State and I rarely see/hear of anything more than a small house party. The thirty and forty-somethings in my neighborhood throw bigger parties than anyone else there...LOL!

[Movingsouth]

Well, there may be some merit to this, but it looks like the problem may be in Durham. Comments?

Thanks

Student survey on gangs ditched

The Herald-Sun (Durham)

Officials and consultants have shelved the idea of surveying middle school students in the Durham school system about the prevalence of gangs in their schools and neighborhoods. ...One such critic, Allen Murray, a staffer at the UNC-based National Research Center on Rural Education Support, wrote officials to say that anything less than active consent would be "highly unethical" and "far outside the standards used by reputable organizations."

Hi, I found theses comments about Chapel Hill on a blog. Is there any merit to this?

Thanks

The town must do something about the increase in gangs in town, this county, and in Durham. My child tells me that her high school has several gangs in there and that other local high schools also have seen an increase in gangs. There are black, white, Hispanic, Asian, and all girl gangs increasing all over town and making there way into the lives of residents here. Crime is on the increase and at times it does not feel as safe as it once was.

Also, there should be a little more control on those students from Carolina that love to urinate and abuse our property on Franklin Street on weekends and before and after football games. Police should crack down more on alcohol and drug use among those students and limit the hours that students can get drunk before they have football games on campus. Students need to respect the community more and business owners on Franklin Street more. Each year, you get these lude wannabe gangsters and more and more rude students with each freshman class. I hope they do not turn this town into a ghetto.

Other than these things, this is a nice place.

[Movingsouth]

Heh RaleighRob, no offense taken, thanks for your feedback. I did work in a city just north of NYC with lots of kid gangs when I was a police officer, which I'm sure was 10x worse than anything going on over there (mostly stabbings/assaults). I currently live in a northern (rural type) suburb of NYC with a population of 4,700). One of the reasons we moved here was because of virtually no crime (1 on a scale to 10) and great schools. However; after 2 years, we find ourselves very secluded (over 2 acres) with no sence of community. We really feel this way now that we have a daughter. Also the winters are terrible, the cost of living is "through the roof", and it's a "keep up with the Jonses" type of neighborhood. Chapel Hill seems to be ideal and I'm looking forward to seeing it for myself come November.

I did a search on school gangs and the only thing that came up was that thread on Durham. Which doesnt sound like such a big deal.

Thanks again

Heh, no offense friend, but you're from New York and you're worried about gangs in North Carolina? Chill...don't believe everything you read.

I mean every city and larger town in the country these days has some sort of nominal gang activity. It's inevitable. Fortunately, it's also usually restricted in scope to a few bad neighborhoods and most everyday citizens notice no effect of it. Heck, even white-bread suburbs like Cary and Knightdale have reported some activity (usually some graffiti and so forth) but most of us wouldn't even know about it if it hadn't been in the news.

Now the second paragraph of that quote has some valid points about wild college kids acting crazy at times...that's expected in the Triangle to a certain degree when you consider we have like 10 colleges and universities here. But if I recall the neighborhoods you mentioned you were looking at in the Relocation Thread, you're gonna be no where near most of the collegiate action anyways.

Heck, I live three blocks from NC State and I rarely see/hear of anything more than a small house party. The thirty and forty-somethings in my neighborhood throw bigger parties than anyone else there...LOL!

[davidals]

Hi, I found theses comments about Chapel Hill on a blog. Is there any merit to this?

Thanks

The town must do something about the increase in gangs in town, this county, and in Durham. My child tells me that her high school has several gangs in there and that other local high schools also have seen an increase in gangs. There are black, white, Hispanic, Asian, and all girl gangs increasing all over town and making there way into the lives of residents here. Crime is on the increase and at times it does not feel as safe as it once was.

Also, there should be a little more control on those students from Carolina that love to urinate and abuse our property on Franklin Street on weekends and before and after football games. Police should crack down more on alcohol and drug use among those students and limit the hours that students can get drunk before they have football games on campus. Students need to respect the community more and business owners on Franklin Street more. Each year, you get these lude wannabe gangsters and more and more rude students with each freshman class. I hope they do not turn this town into a ghetto.

Other than these things, this is a nice place.

[sax184]

Yes, but no. I don't specifically know school details, but awareness is good. Paranoia (i.e., the blog post) is not. There is a general gang presence in CH/Carrboro, not major, but it's here, and has caused a few problems. Just chatting with law enforcement and folks in my neighborhood (not one of the wealthier ones in town), there is the perception that the town isn't necessarily being as proactive as they could be, especially when it seems to stay in one or two specific sections of town. This of course is how small problems escalate with the passage of time, so a hands-off or totally dismissive approach is a disservice to both residents, parents, property owners AND to at risk youth. I think that most problems here are drifting over from Durham, so I definitely do not endorse paranoia, but don't think we should sugar-coat anything either.

As for college kids, this was a college town before it was anything else, so though I am long past college, I tend to accept that they are part of the landscape here, and that's how it is. Attempting to turn a neighborhood a block away from frat row into some enclave of swank is - to me - a retreat from reality.

[Movingsouth]

Hi again,

Sorry, I tried to paste this onto the relocation thread, but it wouldn't work. Im sure the moderator will help me out, thanks.

I'm still searching on the better areas of Chapel Hill to relocate to before I contact a realtor and go down there. It seems that if I limit myself to 27516 (Chapel Hill proper), I am limiting much of the inventory. I am not considering 27514 as the demographics seem too young for us, 45 and 39 with a 2 year old. I don't plan on moving until next summer, so things could change. Also the longer we wait to relocate, the higher we can go in our price range (625K vs 550K). I do want to stick with Chapel Hill proper. I am not interested in Carborro, Durham or Chatham. I have found that some of 27516 is considered Carborro and most of 27517 is considered Chatham or Durham with some arears still Chapel Hill and CH Schools.

How are the neighborhoods of 27517 that are still considered Chapel Hill with its school system? Do they compare favorably with those of 16? Any closer to RTP?

Thanks again

[RaleighRob]

Basically, to stay in Chapel Hill/Carrboro School System you need to

A) Be Inside the City Limits of either Chapel Hill or Carrboro;

B) but Only in the parts in Orange County. Chapel Hill's city limits actually extend into Durham County, but kids there would go to Durham County Schools. Chapel Hill (and maybe Carrboro's) addresses/zip codes extend into Chatham County and those kids would go to Chatham County Schools.

Basically, and I know this could confuse folks from up north...in most of NC, schools are strictly determined by county. In 95% of the state, regardless of what your address or zipcode or city limits say, you go to a system of schools run by the county and they assign you to the specific school based on your locale (among other things).

Orange County, however, is a leftover of the early early days when cities had separate school systems from the counties. Chapel Hill & Carrboro have kept a separate school system from Orange County basically because they have more money and more taxes and higher population. It's a unique situation compared to the rest of the Triangle.

However, when their borders stretch into other counties, (ie, Durham & Chatham) they cannot separate the kids from those counties' school systems. That would take an act of the NC Legislature, I'd imagine.

As far as specific zip codes and so forth, don't rely too much on them. They are arbitrarily drawn lines by the postal system that rarely has anything to do with a city's actual borders or neighborhoods. (Particularly since most were drawn out in the 50s.)

For instance I know of one zip that stretches from downtown Raleigh's most urbanized areas...past some historic mansions, past some housing projects, through sprawling suburbia, and all the way out to country fields and farms. Using it to search for homes thru a realty website would surely get you a funky mix! LOL And I'm pretty sure it's not a unique case in NC but more likely the norm.

[Movingsouth]

Damn, that's confusing. I will probably get a better idea after I speak to a realtor, see more listings, but especially go out there and drive around. It really is very different than here in NY, especially Westchester County. Thanks for your feedback on this.

Basically, to stay in Chapel Hill/Carrboro School System you need to

A) Be Inside the City Limits of either Chapel Hill or Carrboro;

B) but Only in the parts in Orange County. Chapel Hill's city limits actually extend into Durham County, but kids there would go to Durham County Schools. Chapel Hill (and maybe Carrboro's) addresses/zip codes extend into Chatham County and those kids would go to Chatham County Schools.

Basically, and I know this could confuse folks from up north...in most of NC, schools are strictly determined by county. In 95% of the state, regardless of what your address or zipcode or city limits say, you go to a system of schools run by the county and they assign you to the specific school based on your locale (among other things).

Orange County, however, is a leftover of the early early days when cities had separate school systems from the counties. Chapel Hill & Carrboro have kept a separate school system from Orange County basically because they have more money and more taxes and higher population. It's a unique situation compared to the rest of the Triangle.

However, when their borders stretch into other counties, (ie, Durham & Chatham) they cannot separate the kids from those counties' school systems. That would take an act of the NC Legislature, I'd imagine.

As far as specific zip codes and so forth, don't rely too much on them. They are arbitrarily drawn lines by the postal system that rarely has anything to do with a city's actual borders or neighborhoods. (Particularly since most were drawn out in the 50s.)

For instance I know of one zip that stretches from downtown Raleigh's most urbanized areas...past some historic mansions, past some housing projects, through sprawling suburbia, and all the way out to country fields and farms. Using it to search for homes thru a realty website would surely get you a funky mix! LOL And I'm pretty sure it's not a unique case in NC but more likely the norm.

[RaleighRob]

I can understand your confusion...in college I dated a Duke Student from outside Boston and had to explain that NC counties actually have way more of a governmental role than in most states up North. As opposed to up there where cities or townships have so much more of a role.

Basically in most of NC it's like this...

City (or town) jurisdiction: Police, Fire, Zoning, Water, Sewer, sidewalks, minor streets (ie, non-state roads), street lights, stoplights, stormwater, garbage/recycling, building permits, city property taxes.

County jurisdiction: Schools, EMT service, libraries, human & health services, senior services, jails/sherriff, courts/legal matters, child welfare, elections/voting systems, county property taxes.

(For those not living in the city limits of a city or town, the county takes over most of those services...or occasionally an HOA will.)

I've probably missed a few but those are the biggies.

Then of course there are those rare exceptions like where I mentioned ChapelHill/Carrboro kept a separate school system from Orange County for various reasons.

[Gard]

Damn, that's confusing. I will probably get a better idea after I speak to a realtor, see more listings, but especially go out there and drive around. It really is very different than here in NY, especially Westchester County. Thanks for your feedback on this.

[Captain Awesome]

For instance I know of one zip that stretches from downtown Raleigh's most urbanized areas...past some historic mansions, past some housing projects, through sprawling suburbia, and all the way out to country fields and farms.