North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[New Name]

^I assumed the whole speech was meant to "make WI feel bad." Passive aggressive politics; but it shouldn't change the rhetoric:

"Because you all have worked together, and your governor and your transportation folks have worked together, we're going to be making some announcements," LaHood said. "I'm not going to be making it today, but I want you to know because of the leadership of the state on high-speed rail, you all are going to be in the high speed rail business."

- WBTV3 http://www.wbtv.com/....asp?S=13519704

Edited November 19, 2010 by The Escapists

[John Thacker]

How much is required to do something with the Raleigh station? I mean, it's the busiest station in the system with the smallest parking lot and interior space. I know the Union Station idea is still in the planning stage, but I for one am not impressed with the current design and think it should be a multi-platform, multi-layer station that's connect on all three sides of the wye..

There's no chance of getting money for the Raleigh station before the planning moves further along. Due to NEPA and the rules for using federal money, a lot of awards are conditioned on what has plans and environmental documentation and approvals ready to go, not what makes the most sense from a larger perspective.

Hopefully that oft-delayed final Tier II EIS for SEHSR will come out mid 2011 as currently promised, and we'll get a Record of Decision. The Charlotte upgrades are nice (but expensive), but the real synergies for the project come with linking up to the Northeast Corridor.

[John Thacker]

Similarly, has any NC passenger rail line proposed electrification- such as the CATS commuter train line? That allows trains to accelerate faster, saving time, too.

No, all the studies performed so far have suggested that it wouldn't be an efficient use of money on any NC or VA line because ridership wouldn't increase nearly enough to pay for it. The SEHSR website has a discussion of this listed in its FAQ. It could happen in the future if conditions warrant, but it's not worth doing now at the expense of other priorities.

I agree that DC to Richmond/Petersburg improvements should be a high priority especially until the Tier II EIS gets its ROD. Restoring the S-line from Raleigh to Petersburg saves sixty to ninety minutes just from taking a shorter path, not counting the improvements from having a fully grade separated upgraded track there. Linking up with the NEC is the real game-changer, and it's what's capable of selling the upgrades as a truly interstate and viable (and profitable) project that's a good use of federal money.

The WI and OH governor-elects are doing the right thing for the country, in the end. Those projects are *not* as good uses of federal money as SEHSR (or certain other projects like NEC upgrades, potentially things I'm less familiar with like CA.) As the SEHSR FAQ says:

The US Department of Transportation, in reviewing the high speed rail plans for 23 states, concluded that the SEHSR will produce more revenue than any other proposed corridor. It was estimated to generate $2.54 in public benefits for each dollar spent to build and operate the corridor, and SEHSR was the only proposed corridor projected to cover its total operational costs from the fare box.

The money was allocated because of politics, in an attempt to buy support throughout the country.

Edited November 20, 2010 by John Thacker

[mallguy]

The money was allocated because of politics, in an attempt to buy support throughout the country.

Agreed 100%. Funny how no state that went for McCain got much of anything in the first round of HSR grants, isn't it, and how swing states were showered with cash?

[burt]

Agreed 100%. Funny how no state that went for McCain got much of anything in the first round of HSR grants, isn't it, and how swing states were showered with cash?

Virginia was a swing state and did not go for McCain, yet its grant was a paltry $45 million. The Commonwealth is key to NC's wishes for higher speed connection to the Northeast.

[Nindec]

Virginia was a swing state and did not go for McCain, yet its grant was a paltry $45 million. The Commonwealth is key to NC's wishes for higher speed connection to the Northeast.

Not to mention the fact that CA received 2.3 billion, IL received $1.1 bil, and WA received almost $600 million. None are exactly swing states. While a lot of the allotment was probably political, it looks to me like less an attempt to shower money on swing states, and more an attempt to get a solid geographic funding spread -- which hopefully will make funding HSR politically easier down the road.

The fact that the largest recipients didn't include any McCain states seems more a function of which states went for McCain. Most '08 red states are pretty rural, and of those that aren't, I can't think of any with well-formed rail plans.

But yes, I'm also really hopeful some of this money will jumpstart Virginia improvements. The government needs to get serious about reducing Raleigh to DC travel times.

[mallguy]

Not to mention the fact that CA received 2.3 billion, IL received $1.1 bil, and WA received almost $600 million. None are exactly swing states. While a lot of the allotment was probably political, it looks to me like less an attempt to shower money on swing states, and more an attempt to get a solid geographic funding spread -- which hopefully will make funding HSR politically easier down the road.

The fact that the largest recipients didn't include any McCain states seems more a function of which states went for McCain. Most '08 red states are pretty rural, and of those that aren't, I can't think of any with well-formed rail plans.

But yes, I'm also really hopeful some of this money will jumpstart Virginia improvements. The government needs to get serious about reducing Raleigh to DC travel times.

Even Obama's own map showing high speed rail corridors shows them going through plenty of red states. Of the red states with corridors, none of them got much of anything, leaving a large swath of the US (red states) with high-speed rail routes unfunded. (And note that although Missouri received a grant, it was just a small grant for work making a connection to IL.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ARRA_High_Speed_Rail_Grants.jpg

CA, IL and WA--heavily blue states-- received large grants. As did FL (a swing state that is key for Obama in 2012). Notably, TX was basically left out- no hope of Obama getting its electoral votes so why bother?

Obama's method of spending on this program could do long-term damage to passenger rail's future- if the public views HSR as just a way for Obama to fritter away money to his supporters, rather than money invested to create true HSR, it'll face a difficult future. If Obama had used all HSR grants to improve the Northeast Corridor, for example, average train speeds could have significantly increased and Amtrak's market share could have significantly improved, but that wasn't done.

[mallguy]

Also, did the NCDOT ever think about getting new equipment for the Piedmont- or DMUs, rather than the secondhand passenger cars and new or secondhand locomotives that are used?

The Piedmont trains are overpowered- the locomotives can pull way more cars than the typical 3 or 4 car trains. The NY MTA has the same issue with overpowered locomotive-hauled trains on some branch lines in Long Island, resulting in high costs, and is thus replacing those trains with diesel multiple units (DMUs), which don't have a separate locomotive.

With the passenger cars now 40-50 years old, at some point newer ones will have to be bought- why didn't the NCDOT get newer ones from Day 1?

[orulz]

With the passenger cars now 40-50 years old, at some point newer ones will have to be bought- why didn't the NCDOT get newer ones from Day 1?

I'm guessing that you have to make a really large order, or piggyback on somebody else's order, to get a decent enough price on new railcars. Buying used and refurbishing is cheaper than buying new no matter how many new cars are bought, but the difference is especially pronounced when you have a small budget to acquire a very small fleet like NCDOT.

[Nindec]

According the NYT, North Carolina will get "less than $10 million" from the HSR money Ohio and Wisconsin refused. The biggest winners are, not surprisingly, California and Florida.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/us/10rail.html?_r=1

[mallguy]

I'm guessing that you have to make a really large order, or piggyback on somebody else's order, to get a decent enough price on new railcars. Buying used and refurbishing is cheaper than buying new no matter how many new cars are bought, but the difference is especially pronounced when you have a small budget to acquire a very small fleet like NCDOT.

Good point.

The additional $10 million that NCDOT is getting (referenced in the immediately prior post) could perhaps be used to piggyback off of a NJ Transit or Metro-North (or another commuter railroad) order, as those railroads order cars pretty frequently? I was on the NJ Transit Pascack Valley Line last weekend and the cars were great- large windows, ideal for intercity service, with some adjustment.

[dubone]

http://www.fra.dot.gov/Pages/press-releases/231.shtml

It appears we only got $1.6m.

[ERJ170]

http://www.fra.dot.g...eases/231.shtml

It appears we only got $1.6m.

What a JOKE! This is absolutely disgraceful. NC has the best initiative, the longest history, and one of the best reasons with the line from DC to NC and we only get 1.6 million! How absurd.. Politics is just a big crock these days. I'm so disappointed in the US politics that I just.. Arrrgh! California is the brokest state in the nation and they are getting all the money. Florida is building a rail line beside an interstate with 3 stops.. Yeah.. I'm ticked..

I wish NC will just have to continue with the slow but steady pace we have been going. I'd be happy when there are 6 or 8 trains a day between DC and NC.. but I would also love to see 2-3 trains a day between Asheville and Morehead City; Wilmington and Raleigh; Greenville/Washington and Charlotte. I mean, there aren't the most people in those areas, but intrastate travel is quitecommon...

[John Thacker]

If Obama had used all HSR grants to improve the Northeast Corridor, for example, average train speeds could have significantly increased and Amtrak's market share could have significantly improved, but that wasn't done.

To be fair, the reason that the NEC didn't get much is that states didn't really apply. And states didn't really apply because states didn't have Environmental Impact Statements sitting around for projects waiting to be funded, and the Feds made it clear that they wanted to fund some projects that could get started before Obama's term was up, not fund projects that wouldn't break ground until a (possibly two-tier) EIS was done in 8 to 10 years.

The Feds also made it clear that they had a strong bias in favor of funding "true" high speed rail, even where that means funding fast trains in areas that won't be profitable, like in FL, or funding an entirely useless set of tracks that will set idle until ten times as much money is spent, like in California (where the first set of tracks is going from Borden through Fresno to Corcoran, and won't be used at all until far more tracks are built. (I'd much rather they spend money on Anaheim or San Diego to LA, or something in NorCal, or anything that actually has incremental value and would build support.) Apparently the gambit is working for CA in a sense, as a big part of the reason that the Feds are giving CA more money is so that the initial tracks will actually make it to Bakersfield and thus connect two cities people have at least heard of. The plans still don't include electrification, rail cars, or the passing tracks that will eventually be needed.

Florida also got a lot because Florida had funded a high speed rail authority that produced an EIS and costs for building rail. The state and state's voters looked at the cost and decided that they didn't want to pay for it, so they put it on the shelf a few years ago. When the federal monies became available, they pulled it off the shelf and submitted it. So they had a plan ready to go.

VA was hurt by not having extensive planning documentation. NC was hurt by not having the Tier II EIS for the Richmond to Raleigh portion done. Yeah, the Charlotte upgrades are nice, but you sell SEHSR based on the Richmond-Raleigh link up to the NEC.

Still, I'd rather have seen North Carolina rewarded more for actually investing in rail over the last ten years, being willing to put her own money into it instead of waiting for federal funds alone. And for the project actually being profitable and useful. (The Ohio plan that just lost its money only predicted an average speed of 38.4 mph, according to their application.)

Edited December 11, 2010 by John Thacker

[mallguy]

To be fair, the reason that the NEC didn't get much is that states didn't really apply.

True. If Obama had stepped back and thought, "what's the best way to get the best bang for the buck per HSR dollar" I think that more investments in the Northeast Corridor would have been made, perhaps through grants to Amtrak/commuter railroads rather than states.

Regular mass transit applications for federal dollars have to meet pretty strict financial cost/benefit criteria. I don't see that any formulae were required for HSR allocations; I still think that they were given out to projects that were good, but were also somewhat politically-based.

Amtrak also has a long list of upgrades that it'd like to make to the Northeast Corridor, as do local commuter railroads. Metro-North, for example, is in the midst of replacing the catenary on portions of the line between NYC and New Haven and when that's done, the Acela will be able to speed up a lot more (rather than being limited to 90mph). The project will be done in I believe 2020; that's one project underway that could have been accelerated with good HSR funding.

Given the much higher passenger and train counts in the Northeast Corridor, a dollar invested in it will benefit a lot more people than would projects in most of the rest of the US, which have shorter and more infrequent trains.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1246045294707&cid=1241245669222

Edited December 11, 2010 by mallguy

[ERJ170]

Soooooo.... looking at this link to Progressive Railroad, it looks like 2 refurbished locomotives was supposed to be christened today in Greensboro? So are these locos for the 3rd frequency, 4th frequency, or to replace the loco damaged in the Mebane accident?

the NCDOT’s Rail Division plans to christen two refurbished locomotives for North Carolina's Amtrak tomorrow at the J. Douglas Galyon train depot in Greensboro. The project was funded by federal stimulus dollars.

The motive power will be used on North Carolina Amtrak’s Piedmont route between Raleigh and Charlotte.

[sax184]

So are these locos for the 3rd frequency, 4th frequency, or to replace the loco damaged in the Mebane accident?

The answer is yes to all of the above except the Mebane accident portion. The loco damaged in Mebane either is being or will be rebuilt.

Here is a photo of one of the two locos, engine 1810- City of Greensboro. Right behind it is the City of High Point. Pics were taken at the Capital Yard in Raleigh last month.

[John Thacker]

Amtrak also has a long list of upgrades that it'd like to make to the Northeast Corridor, as do local commuter railroads.

They do, but if you look at their document for NEC upgrades, they still haven't done the Environmental Impact Statements and other planning documents.

You can't understand how the HSR money was awarded without understanding the planning process.

1. It takes 7-10 years to do a one or two tier EIS for a major project.
2. The money had to spent well within that time frame, for many reasons, including the legislation specifying, the Administration wanted it to start before the end of the term, and the general desire for "shovel ready" projects-- it isn't much of a stimulus to a recession if you spend it 8 years later.
3. The programs that got funding were programs with big EISes for large corridors completed or almost completed.

The NEC just didn't qualify. It didn't matter if Amtrak or states had asked for money as in that document, nothing could have been spent until 7 or 10 years of NEPA-required planning was done.

[mallguy]

They do, but if you look at their document for NEC upgrades, they still haven't done the Environmental Impact Statements and other planning documents...

Those are good points- there are projects already underway in the Northeast Corridor though that could surely use funding, such as the New Haven Line catenary upgrades. There is no way that should take until 2020. ETA: I'd think that the whole HSR grant pool could have been used to help put the NEC into a state of good repair by repairing and replacing worn-out track, catenary, signaling and more--nothing more than just accelerating long-deferred maintenance. Plus the ARC tunnel between Manhattan and NJ that was just canceled was already under construction.

ETA again: wow, great news on the new locomotive. Do we know what kind they are, and what railroad they're from? They seem like some Metro-North units, but I can't really tell.

Edited December 18, 2010 by mallguy

[kdub1]

Those are good points- there are projects already underway in the Northeast Corridor though that could surely use funding, such as the New Haven Line catenary upgrades. There is no way that should take until 2020. ETA: I'd think that the whole HSR grant pool could have been used to help put the NEC into a state of good repair by repairing and replacing worn-out track, catenary, signaling and more--nothing more than just accelerating long-deferred maintenance. Plus the ARC tunnel between Manhattan and NJ that was just canceled was already under construction.

ETA again: wow, great news on the new locomotive. Do we know what kind they are, and what railroad they're from? They seem like some Metro-North units, but I can't really tell.

The engines are from Toronto's GO Transit

[ERJ170]

So, from this link from the News & Observer, the midday Piedmont train will be reduced from Feb 14 to May 21 from daily to 3 times a week while Norfolk Southern does track maintenance. All additional trains running the route will have 15-20 minutes added to their schedule as the route will require slower train speeds. They noted the result will be smoother and on-time trains..

[John Thacker]

Plus the ARC tunnel between Manhattan and NJ that was just canceled was already under construction.

Actually, the ARC tunnel was ineligible for HSIPR funds. If you look at its Record of Decision (linked), it was approved by the Federal Transit Administration, not the Federal Railroad Administration. If you read the FRA guidelines (linked) for applying for the money, you'll note this:

3.5.4

Eligibility Restrictions

Pursuant to the provisions of Sections

301, 302, and 501 of PRIIA, the

following activities are ineligible to

receive Federal funding under this

solicitation:

...

• Projects for which commuter rail

passenger transportation is the primary

intended beneficiary (see Appendix 1); (emphasis added)

The ARC tunnel's environmental and planning documents indicated that commuter rail was the primary intended beneficiary; hence, it was ineligible for funds under the HSIPR program administered by the FRA. It could only apply for Federal Transit Administration funds, and had already done so.

This was a problem more generally for the Northeast-- most states in the area have been more interested in the Northeast Corridor from a local commuter rail than intercity rail (often to other states, since so many of the states are small geographically) perspective, so they didn't have as much environmental work on the shelf that was intercity focused. And any documentation that played up the commuter rail benefit would end up leading to an FRA rejection.The regulation isn't entirely pointless-- it is partially to prevent the same project from being funded by both agencies, ending up being overfunded at the expense of other projects.

Now, if the ARC tunnel had been included as part of a larger corridor-wide application, that could have been intercity rail focused. But as a single project, all its documentation was commuter rail (transit) focused, which was a problem for the FRA and the HSIPR funds, under the stimulus law and the budget.

All just reinforces my earlier points about how working the regulations and the contracting system was so important.

Edited January 12, 2011 by John Thacker

[mallguy]

Actually, the ARC tunnel was ineligible for HSIPR funds...

All just reinforces my earlier points about how working the regulations and the contracting system was so important.

Did not realize- your post is very interesting and very informative.

Sounds like the Obama administration missed the forest for the trees- rather than making grant rules as it did, and having various administrators overlooking different types of railroads, the administration should have thought, "what investments in HSR will result in the highest rate of return, and how can we get those investments to happen?"

I still maintain that if the administration had looked at HSR that way, the money would have been focused on the decrepit Northeast Corridor, rather than scattered across "higher-speed rail" projects "must-win" states for 2012.

[John Thacker]

I still maintain that if the administration had looked at HSR that way, the money would have been focused on the decrepit Northeast Corridor, rather than scattered across "higher-speed rail" projects "must-win" states for 2012.

Well, it's not entirely the Administration's fault, it's also the fault of the Administration's party in Congress, which wrote the bills. The restriction on commuter service was explicitly contained in the stimulus law.

There wasn't a majority in Congress for "use a bunch of federal money raised from taxes nationwide to build the best HSR network wherever it may be." Plenty of people, even those considering themselves rail advocates, wanted to make sure that their state had a "fair shot" at the money. This was especially since people viewed it as a "stimulus" law, so they wanted to put the money to use in their own state rather than stimulate elsewhere. Other people intentionally wanted to use the money to try to seed various projects, without giving the projects enough to be fully built out, in the hope that this would force hands later and get people to finish the job regardless of cost. And then you also had the people that really, really wanted to spend money on "true" HSR, even where it only marginally makes sense (like FL), instead of highly rated upgrades that didn't have as exciting top speeds. And it turned out that when the feds didn't require any matching funds, that states would throw out plans that they would never choose to fund themselves because it was "free" money, whereas North Carolina has a long and steady history of the state spending money on improvements.

There's a small handful of Republicans like John Mica (new House Transportation Committee chair) that would be willing to fund HSR in sensible places like the Northeast Corridor, but voted against the bill for funding it in poor places. However, the Administration, probably rightly, estimated that any such votes gained by focusing the money on the right places (plus extra votes from Republicans located in those rail-friendly areas) would be outweighed by Democrats voting against the bill if their state wasn't going to get anything.

You can see one report from America 2050 of their estimation of where it makes sense to build rail. Unsurprisingly, the NEC and California routes that include either LA or SF rank highest. DC to Richmond ranks very well, as does Seattle to Portland. FL ranks poorly, as does the now canceled Midwest routes. Building CA HSR only out in the Central Valley is very poor; I suppose one idea is that they'll link up to Riverside, LA, and San Diego eventually, but it would be better to start with something that works first.

Apparently the new FL governor is waiting for a feasibility study and considering returning their money as well. If so, hopefully NC and VA would actually get some of the reallocated money this time. It would also mean that the worst, least viable projects would all be canceled (except for the silly idea of starting the CA HSR in the wrong place.)

[mallguy]

You make good points and certainly are knowledgeable on the issues.

I don't know whether or not the Florida HSR project is a good one (from a cost/benefit analysis), but even though it seems odd to be building a new HSR line where there isn't even existing high-frequency service, and for only 84 miles (which negates some of the benefits of having high speeds), I'm hoping that it goes through and is built, so at least the US will have a real HSR line, at long last.

In general though I am irked at frittering away HSR money for marginal projects. It'll give the Wendell Cox "rail is always a waste" types more ammunition.