So-called "Exodus" of businesses downtown - Is a crisis brewing?

[cstonesparty]

My 23 year old nephew and his wife live in an apartment downtown.  He told me this weekend that they're not going to renew their lease 'because of the change in vibe downtown.' She doesn't walk to her office alone anymore either.  

The extent of issues down there is debatable, but it's having an actual impact on people and their decision-making.  As much as we all want to celebrate the best aspects of downtown, need to recognize that stuff is happening that's changing behavior and decisions of residents and visitors...  Hope we're not heading back to the 70s/80s era conception of downtown.  

[GRLaker]

1 hour ago, cstonesparty said:

My 23 year old nephew and his wife live in an apartment downtown.  He told me this weekend that they're not going to renew their lease 'because of the change in vibe downtown.' She doesn't walk to her office alone anymore either.  

The extent of issues down there is debatable, but it's having an actual impact on people and their decision-making.  As much as we all want to celebrate the best aspects of downtown, need to recognize that stuff is happening that's changing behavior and decisions of residents and visitors...  Hope we're not heading back to the 70s/80s era conception of downtown.  

Did he provide any examples at all to describe the new vibe?  I’m not questioning his view; just curious what changes they have started to notice. 

[Prankster]

1 hour ago, cstonesparty said:

My 23 year old nephew and his wife live in an apartment downtown.  He told me this weekend that they're not going to renew their lease 'because of the change in vibe downtown.' She doesn't walk to her office alone anymore either.  

The extent of issues down there is debatable, but it's having an actual impact on people and their decision-making.  As much as we all want to celebrate the best aspects of downtown, need to recognize that stuff is happening that's changing behavior and decisions of residents and visitors...  Hope we're not heading back to the 70s/80s era conception of downtown.  

This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread about people deciding with their wallets and their feet if they feel safe downtown.
I’ve lived here 54 years, and have seen the ups and downs. Nobody wishes to see downtown grow and succeed more than me. 
But if people think that shaming and judging the general public on their perceptions, they will lose that argument every time. Perception is reality for the public, and the only way to change that perception is to make sure to mitigate as much of the negative as possible.
Safety is more than likely on the top of most people’s list. 

[Zads]

2 hours ago, cstonesparty said:

My 23 year old nephew and his wife live in an apartment downtown.  He told me this weekend that they're not going to renew their lease 'because of the change in vibe downtown.' She doesn't walk to her office alone anymore either.  

The extent of issues down there is debatable, but it's having an actual impact on people and their decision-making.  As much as we all want to celebrate the best aspects of downtown, need to recognize that stuff is happening that's changing behavior and decisions of residents and visitors...  Hope we're not heading back to the 70s/80s era conception of downtown.  

If they're closer to Wealthy/Cherry area, south of that. I can understand. Lot of unhoused people are there and all the missions. But if they are further north, I would wonder what makes them feel so unsafe. Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions, especially when it comes to safety, but I think this is just one example in a small pot. The vibe of downtown in my perspective since living nearby the last 5 years has only continued to increase in "vibes" and safety.

[Khorasaurus1]

1 hour ago, Zads said:

If they're closer to Wealthy/Cherry area, south of that. I can understand. Lot of unhoused people are there and all the missions. But if they are further north, I would wonder what makes them feel so unsafe. Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions, especially when it comes to safety, but I think this is just one example in a small pot. The vibe of downtown in my perspective since living nearby the last 5 years has only continued to increase in "vibes" and safety.

What's confusing to me is that the south end of downtown (Heartside, etc) hasn't changed that much in the last five years. There were always gatherings of homeless people at the missions and in Heartside Park. It doesn't seem that much worse to me now.

I will say this though - I put a lot more stock in the experience of someone who lives downtown vs someone who refuses to go downtown and yet claims to be an expert on it.

Though here's my anecdote to add to this thread - our company is doubling our square footage in our downtown office, and we currently have team members that commute from Lansing to downtown GR because they'd rather be here than our suburban Detroit office that's a similar distance from their homes.  We have a hybrid work schedule with three in-office days required.  No complaints about "crime" or "vibe" from any of our employees or clients that have come here. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Khorasaurus1

[whitemice]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:25 PM, Zads said:

Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions, especially when it comes to safety, but I think this is just one example in a small pot

Yep,  if vacancy stays under 5% - or not - then we'll know.

On 6/19/2023 at 3:26 PM, Khorasaurus1 said:

What's confusing to me is that the south end of downtown (Heartside, etc) hasn't changed that much in the last five years

Same feeling; I mean, it just isn't that different. The pandemic was a blip - when the shelters were closing, etc.. - but it looks very much like things have reverted to the norm  [... but the media loves a downtown/city crisis and can't bear to let it go]

On 6/19/2023 at 3:26 PM, Khorasaurus1 said:

I put a lot more stock in the experience of someone who lives downtown vs someone who refuses to go downtown and yet claims to be an expert on it

Yep.  We are all trading anecdotes but I hear the same things from the same people I heard in the before times.  People who don't go downtown don't because they don't want to for whatever reason - and are often pretty eager to tell you why.  The people who did go downtown still go downtown.  The people I know who had downtown offices but got moved, including before the pandemic, talk about missing their downtown offices.

[joeDowntown]

Wonder if some of the issues with the homeless population now vs ten years ago has to do with the type of drugs on the streets now. Someone had mentioned a few months back that there is a segment of the population that is more aggressive / out of their mind due to fentanyl, meth, etc. 

So is the issue maybe not quantity (same now vs. pre-Covid) vs the aggressiveness of people on the street?

If people/businesses ARE moving out (and not just an excuse for cheaper rent or under used space), what is the difference? An interesting question that hopefully people way more informed than me can address. 

Joe

[writeguy]

On 6/19/2023 at 3:26 PM, Khorasaurus1 said:

What's confusing to me is that the south end of downtown (Heartside, etc) hasn't changed that much in the last five years. There were always gatherings of homeless people at the missions and in Heartside Park. It doesn't seem that much worse to me now.

No, but the downtown core has gotten worse. The city just allocated $500,000 to get rid of (excuse me, "provide temporary housing for") 44 unhoused individuals who hang  out on Monroe Center and Louis Campau Promenade. That's a big increase from five years ago, at least from my anecdotal observation. 

[Allison Slater]

On 6/17/2023 at 4:15 PM, GR_Urbanist said:

Tons of people at the pride festival on Ottawa, and lots of spillover onto Monroe Center

 

But conversely, there was also a protester there who assaulted someone at Pride. Security stepped in really quickly, but these kinds of things are going to stick in people's minds.

[Cookin_peacocks]

2 hours ago, Allison Slater said:

But conversely, there was also a protester there who assaulted someone at Pride. Security stepped in really quickly, but these kinds of things are going to stick in people's minds.

Do you have details on this?

[Allison Slater]

5 hours ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

Do you have details on this?

I don't, I wasn't there. It happened while I was taking a break from my booth. But I heard about it from others who were working my booth in the meantime who saw it first-hand.

[Cookin_peacocks]

56 minutes ago, Allison Slater said:

I don't, I wasn't there. It happened while I was taking a break from my booth. But I heard about it from others who were working my booth in the meantime who saw it first-hand.

Terrible. Hope the person who attacked got caught. 

[Jonesey]

That is really sad.  I think Ottawa Impact saying these are "grooming events" only makes certain people feel more emboldened.  It's pretty bad when you have a group of church leaders publicly coming out against your stances.  I honestly don't think the majority of Ottawa county agree with OI.  The Holland Sentinal has been really good at calling them out on their BS

(Mods, please delete if too political, I don't wanna be that guy, but facts are facts)

[cstonesparty]

On 6/19/2023 at 1:16 PM, GRLaker said:

Did he provide any examples at all to describe the new vibe?  I’m not questioning his view; just curious what changes they have started to notice. 

The concerns for them were safety.  They were walking downtown one night when one of the shootings occurred nearby which shook them up.  They also feel like the problems with homeless or mentally ill people accosting people aggressively is beyond what they're willing to tolerate.

Full disclosure: this couple grew up in white, affluent suburbs.  They thought it would be cool to live around downtown and have now soured on it...  

I agree with previous commenters that this is just one anecdote, but it does beg the question of the prevailing narrative and if young couples like this who come from the burbs don't stay, while offices shift more towards suburbs, the progress made can erode very quickly.

[whitemice]

It is hard to make the case that there is an "exodus" from downtown [this data is May, 2023]

[gvsusean]

I drove down ionia south of cherry is just mass homelessness… its definitely the worst part of downtown.

[Cookin_peacocks]

1 hour ago, gvsusean said:

I drove down ionia south of cherry is just mass homelessness… its definitely the worst part of downtown.

It's super unfortunate. The park is a mess and the businesses that they want there aren't coming in. The base of the newish apartment building is never going to be occupied.

[joeDowntown]

I personally think homeless camps in the city should be a red line. Get all community services together to try and house the unhoused, get people the help and support they need, etc.  But also don't let it continue. Don't know what the answer is (and I know a lot of our shelters have a no drug/alcohol policy which leaves some people with nowhere to go), but I think the city needs to get stern about this. 

It's such a difficult issue to address, but I think it needs to be job #1 (or #2, below curbing violence) in the city. Seems like right now, the city is scared to do much about it. 

And if this sounds harsh, I truly mean to exhaust every option for help first.

EDIT: While sleeping on it, wanted to make sure I mention this should be the number one priority for safety and perception concerns downtown. There are a million issues that need to be addressed to keep our city thriving/moving in the right direction. A lot of cities are struggling with this, but I think it's a bit of a political hot potato. Crack down on homelessness and the left will feel betrayed. Don't crack down, and it feeds into the MAGA narrative. But tent cities and aggressive panhandling doesn't do anyone any good (unless the aggressive panhandler is making bank and spending winters in Florida.  LOL).

Joe

[Zads]

Calvin purchases the Compass College of Film and Media, located on Sheldon and Weston. The film school at Calvin will also move to that location.

https://www.crainsgrandrapids.com/news/education/calvin-university-to-acquire-compass-college-of-film-and-media/

[GVSUChris]

Malamiah (juice) and Pump House (frozen yogurt) have both closed at Studio Park or are in process…

The theater is taking over the ice cream spot and Malamiah will go dark. 
 

 

[joeDowntown]

37 minutes ago, GVSUChris said:

Malamiah (juice) and Pump House (frozen yogurt) have both closed at Studio Park or are in process…

The theater is taking over the ice cream spot and Malamiah will go dark. 
 

 

Sad to see Malamiah go. I see they are shutting their whole operation (including wholesale sales grocery stores).

[RiversideGR]

53 minutes ago, GVSUChris said:

Malamiah (juice) and Pump House (frozen yogurt) have both closed at Studio Park or are in process…

The theater is taking over the ice cream spot and Malamiah will go dark. 
 

 

a different ice cream/froyo place is opening in Studio Park 

Elsa’s brings ice cream, seasonal treats to downtown Grand Rapids - mlive.com

[GR_Urbanist]

1 hour ago, GVSUChris said:

Malamiah (juice) and Pump House (frozen yogurt) have both closed at Studio Park or are in process…

The theater is taking over the ice cream spot and Malamiah will go dark. 
 

 

Well these closures are defiantly not great news. Malamiah was like a big local success story too.

 

At least Calvin isnt moving the film school out of DT

[GVSUChris]

3 hours ago, RiversideGR said:

a different ice cream/froyo place is opening in Studio Park 

Elsa’s brings ice cream, seasonal treats to downtown Grand Rapids - mlive.com

Elsa's is apparently just owned by Studio Park/Celebration. They're taking over operations of the space. 

[Khorasaurus1]

4 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

Sad to see Malamiah go. I see they are shutting their whole operation (including wholesale sales grocery stores).

Malamiah closing sucks. I feel like they shouldn't have moved out of the Downtown Market...but also that their location right on the plaza at Studio Park should have been more successful. The pandemic didn't help, I'm sure.