Capitol / Financial District / Shockoe Slip

[I miss RVA]

On 9/20/2022 at 4:48 PM, Shakman said:

So existing 17-story building being converted to 15-story mixed use.  We losing height or height stays the same with less floors?

According to today's RBS story - ground floor will be used for commercial space. Second floor will be for amenities, like a gym, etc. The "remaining" 15 floors (meaning, floors 3 through 17) will be residential floors. 

Leave it to our dear friends over at RBS to clear up any/all confusion. 

[flaneur]

i walked all over downtown while home last week and stumbled upon a GEM of a bread bakery--Europa Crust--right on main between 13th and 14th. the bread is some of the best i've had and would hold up against some of the best global bakeries. this is a great example of the type of small business we need more of in downtown as the residential population grows. i talked with the owner and he seems to be doing pretty well with one year of business under his belt. if you're downtown, i highly recommend buying a fresh loaf or two from europa crust: https://europacrust.com/

here's a good article from last year in the RTD Metro Business section: https://europacrust.com/assets/images/RTD Metro Business.pdf

[ancientcarpenter]

15 hours ago, flaneur said:

i walked all over downtown while home last week and stumbled upon a GEM of a bread bakery--Europa Crust--right on main between 13th and 14th. the bread is some of the best i've had and would hold up against some of the best global bakeries. this is a great example of the type of small business we need more of in downtown as the residential population grows. i talked with the owner and he seems to be doing pretty well with one year of business under his belt. if you're downtown, i highly recommend buying a fresh loaf or two from europa crust: https://europacrust.com/

here's a good article from last year in the RTD Metro Business section: https://europacrust.com/assets/images/RTD Metro Business.pdf

This is great. I have worked downtown almost a decade but am now only going into office once a week. I will check them out.

Honestly, I have no clue how anything stays in business downtown... besides nightclubs and bars for the weekends. Even before the pandemic, things were dead come 4-5pm. It was a ghost town. Today? It's a ghost town during the work hours too. 

Something has to be done with the lack of life downtown. While wearing a Richmond sweatshirt, I ran into someone in Boston last year and he said "hey! I visited Richmond... I guess all that construction downtown really created a ghost town while things get updated!" - Took me a minute after our conversation to realize this poor guy visited RVA and spent the entire time downtown. He saw a complete ghost town and gave us the benefit of the doubt because of the construction. I wish I had time to give him my number and tell him "YOU WERE IN THE WRONG PLACE! GO WEST A FEW MILES FROM DOWNTOWN!!" haha.

Edited January 3, 2023 by ancientcarpenter

[Flood Zone]

49 minutes ago, ancientcarpenter said:

Honestly, I have no clue how anything stays in business downtown... besides nightclubs and bars for the weekends. Even before the pandemic, things were dead come 4-5pm. It was a ghost town. Today? It's a ghost town during the work hours too. 

 

In my non-expert experience, having worked downtown for a couple decades now, I'd say there's two paths: (1) franchise agreement with a national brand so you've got the efficiency and consistency angles taken care of (Subway on 8th, the old Arby's in the James Center, the Quizno's on Main - although the latter two are gone now); or (2) small place where the owners are the labor (Sub Central,* Sefton, etc., also that small market on 8th, which is tended to be the same lady until late at night). The secret sauce also is to find a spot close to critical mass of office or government workers (like the Potbelly). Regardless, yeah, you're making your dough on the lunch crowd and going dark after lunchtime ends. 

*Sub Central gets a massive amount of business between noon and 2 p.m. And aside from a person here or there manning the french fries, it's just the owners - husband and wife. They're the labor. He takes the orders, she makes the subs. I asked him once how they do it, and he said it's just muscle memory after 40 years or whatever. Anyway, they limits costs and work really hard.

[I miss RVA]

6 hours ago, ancientcarpenter said:

This is great. I have worked downtown almost a decade but am now only going into office once a week. I will check them out.

Honestly, I have no clue how anything stays in business downtown... besides nightclubs and bars for the weekends. Even before the pandemic, things were dead come 4-5pm. It was a ghost town. Today? It's a ghost town during the work hours too. 

Something has to be done with the lack of life downtown. While wearing a Richmond sweatshirt, I ran into someone in Boston last year and he said "hey! I visited Richmond... I guess all that construction downtown really created a ghost town while things get updated!" - Took me a minute after our conversation to realize this poor guy visited RVA and spent the entire time downtown. He saw a complete ghost town and gave us the benefit of the doubt because of the construction. I wish I had time to give him my number and tell him "YOU WERE IN THE WRONG PLACE! GO WEST A FEW MILES FROM DOWNTOWN!!" haha.

I wish there was a magic wand to make it happen - but even though the solution itself of pretty simple -- we need a critical mass of people living and working downtown -- GETTING there is the problem.

As we've talked about over the last couple of years - downtown itself needs (according to urban planning professors at VCU) a MINIMUM of 30,000 residents LIVING downtown (recall, back in the glory days of RVA retail, there were roughly 29K residents in and around downtown). At the same time, we need to restore and re-establish downtown as THE business hub of the metropolitan region. Back in its heyday, downtown had a tremendous workforce (I have no idea in terms of raw data and I won't even begin to guesstimate how many thousands commuted to the central city for work) - particularly given that state and city government, courts, banking, stock market, other finance, law firms, and a number of corporations all had offices headquartered downtown - bringing in a large daytime number of commuters.

Obviously, over the years, the banking industry downtown is not what it once was, thanks to mergers, take-overs, etc., from out-of-state banks (particularly those located a few hundred miles to the south) and RVA is no longer the regional (and even semi-national) financial powerhouse that it once was. Looking ahead - CoStar's presence downtown certainly will help. We still have state and city governments, law firms, courts, the Fed, a smaller but still somewhat strong banking presence. But we need more - A LOT more -- businesses located downtown. The trend -- unfortunately -- over the past 50 years has been a move away from the central city to the West End and to the Chesterfield suburbs. Indeed, with so many parts of the city absolutely blowing up with development (though it's mainly residential) businesses HAVE been moving back to the city, but not all of them are settling in downtown. Some out-of-state companies have opened downtown offices, but so far, most of them are quite small.  Again, CoStar really helps. But how about we crank up the afterburners and put a full-court press on LEGO and do everything under the sun to pry them away from Connecticut and not only bring them to metro RVA to link up with their huge factory - but let's shoot for the moon (or for Mars even!) and do everything possible to bring them DOWNTOWN. Incentivize the living daylights out of them. The money spent to make that happen (both in terms of expenditures to get them here plus tax and whatever other incentives) will surely pay for itself down the road once they are here and we have a gleaming LEGO HQ tower downtown, brimming with however many thousand workers. While we're at it, let's see who else we could pry loose from cities in parts unknown. This is where Greater Richmond Partnership, plus the mayor's and governor's offices plus the city's economic development department's office among other civic, business and government-related organizations could all tag-team efforts to poach companies from other cities - particularly from northern cities and particularly those businesses looking to leave uber-expensive locales such as New York City. This is an effort that needs to happen and needs to be ongoing - without ceasing!

HOPEFULLY the City Center redevelopment will help bring both residents and businesses back to downtown going forward. And a MUST MUST MUST MUST - is converting the Pacific Ocean-size sea of parking lots that is Monroe Ward into high-density development of all kinds - residential, mixed-use and office, not to mention hotel. And it NEEDS to be high-density - which means, highrise. We can't have block after block after block of prime developable space cluttered up with low-rise townhouses/row houses, or only mid-rise apartments. Since downtown is land locked, buildings absolutely MUST go vertical. And yes - I realize taller buildings are more expensive to build - and the economy isn't as friendly in 2023 as it was just prior to the pandemic or even in 2020, before construction costs started skyrocketing. There is SO much developable space downtown in just about all areas from Monroe Ward to the riverfront to City Center to even the legacy (and new) Financial Districts. Convert ALL of that space into high-density, high-intensity developments (and yes - cram buildings together - one building right next to another other -- jam 'em in there! And for God's sake  -- no "pedestal" developments with a single tower surrounded by an aircraft carrier's-worth of open plazas). This ain't Midtown Manhattan where there is no open space. We have almost nothing BUT open space at this point. Convert every developable nook and cranny to high density and we won't have a ghost town.

I think it was @upzoningisgoodwho pointed out last year that downtown needs a "hook" like Nashville has - to make it a "must go/be there" kind of place. Right now (as evidence by the fact that it's a bloody ghost town even during the daytime) - that hook appears to be missing. Cities with vibrant, bustling, growing downtowns have something that make them "must go/be there" kinds of places. Perhaps unironically, Manchester is a "must go/be there" kind of place, and this is borne out by the sheer amount of development that's been underway and is in the pipeline. Guaranteed were this not the case, we wouldn't see the Avery Halls and Hourigans of the world lining up to put glorious new residential towers along the Manchester riverfront - or other developers packing in increasingly larger mid-rise projects in the area from Commerce Road north to the river. That part of town is red hot. We need downtown to also become red hot - both for businesses and residents. Imagine however many years down the road what it would be like if downtown had a residential population of more than 30,000 - and a daily workforce of -- say -- 100,000. No more ghost town!!

How we get there - is the $64,000 question. And here's the unfortunate kicker - it won't happen overnight. It's going to take time. At least a decade - likely a couple of decades - unless the Urban Miracle Grow that has fueled Manchester and Scott's Addition also finds its way into downtown. And with competition from the Diamond District, plus the suburbs -- that's going to be a pretty tall order.

Not saying it can't be done - but it's going to take a LOT of work - and probably a LOT more time than most of us want or some of us have.

Edited January 3, 2023 by I miss RVA

[whw53]

Well this will help - POD filed 12\29 for 509 E Franklin. I've noticed preparation for demolition at this site but never followed up on this. Parking garage with convenience store will give way to 181 apartment units with likely commercial frontage. 

https://energov.richmondgov.com/EnerGov_Prod/SelfService/richmondvaprod#/plan/a199ac37-f4c3-4aa4-a428-6343774530b2?tab=locations

With all the office - residential rehabs announced for downtown last year I would love to see something more modern set for here. 

Glad to see that another couple POD's snuck in before the New Year's!

 

 

 

 

[flaneur]

the future health and vibrancy of downtown definitely depends on increasing housing and adding residents rather than adding office towers and daytime commuters. luckily, downtown is well positioned to evolve as a real 24/7 neighborhood. it has good urban fabric bones that connect well to adjacent neighborhoods such as the fan, jackson ward, and church hill. plus plenty of infill opportunities, especially in monroe ward. really the only area of downtown that feels more isolated and single use/disconnected, and thus not as appealing as a neighborhood/harder to integrate to the rest of the urban fabric, is the newer area around the Fed, future CoStar, etc., where lone towers, often on a pedestal, sit by themselves and cater to parking garages. but the rest of the downtown is prime for residential growth and truly becoming a real 24/7 neighborhood. related, this article nails it:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/12/remote-work-is-poised-to-devastate-americas-cities.html

Edited January 3, 2023 by flaneur

[Shakman]

I've been dreaming of a tall, skyline changing tower built on this site.  Concerned 181 units will mean stick frame garbage though I will try my best to patiently wait for more details.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Shakman

[I miss RVA]

5 hours ago, whw53 said:

Well this will help - POD filed 12\29 for 509 E Franklin. I've noticed preparation for demolition at this site but never followed up on this. Parking garage with convenience store will give way to 181 apartment units with likely commercial frontage. 

https://energov.richmondgov.com/EnerGov_Prod/SelfService/richmondvaprod#/plan/a199ac37-f4c3-4aa4-a428-6343774530b2?tab=locations

With all the office - residential rehabs announced for downtown last year I would love to see something more modern set for here. 

Glad to see that another couple POD's snuck in before the New Year's!

 

 

 

 

HOHHHH-LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WOWWWWWWWWWWW!! Didn't see THIS coming - AT ALL!  Looks like Santa left us a few gems hidden away in the city's stocking that we're just now starting to unwrap. How about that!

Okay - 181 units -- what's the over/under on the size of the building? The Admiral is going 12 stories for 255 units - but it's doing it in two wings in an L-shaped config on what looks like a quite-a-bit larger footprint.

QUESTIONS:

1.) Do we know the square footage of what's actually being built with the Admiral? Just to get some kind of rough idea, since they're going to 12 stories but will have 74 more units.

2.) Do we know the square footage of this parcel at 5th and Franklin? 

3.) Will @RVABizSenseMikehave nuggets of goodness and happiness for us this week? 

So if this development will have 181 units - AND is supposed to be mixed use - unless the units are going to be shoeboxes, I'm thinking that including integrated parking (though that could go below ground), first-floor retail - this building COULD have at least a BIT of size to it, particularly given the footprint is not a full quarter of a block (it's actually quite small, all things considered). 

That said - any chance we gett at least 10 or 11 stories out of this one? 

Edited January 4, 2023 by I miss RVA

[upzoningisgood]

4 hours ago, Shakman said:

I've dreaming of a tall, skyline changing tower built on this site.  Concerned 181 units will mean stick frame garbage though I will try my best to patiently wait for more details.

I actually don’t think it will be. 
 

It looks like the parcel is 100x150, or 15000 SF per floor. Wood construction can’t be more than 6 stories high (maybe I’ve seen 7 near Shockoe bottom but that won’t affect the thought experiment too much). With perfect efficiency (which is impossible because that would mean no hallways, leasing office, amenities, storage, etc.) the average unit would have to be 497 SF (15000 SF/floor x 6 floors/181 units). I can’t imagine they would go for an average unit that small, and once you have physically possible efficiency the average unit would have to be even smaller. So, I think they will go up higher than stick frame would allow. Plus, it’ll have to be on a podium which will add some stories. 
 

Now, I don’t know how they could get steel construction to pencil out, but I can’t figure out how most of the deals in this city are penciling, so what do I know?

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, upzoningisgood said:

I actually don’t think it will be. 
 

It looks like the parcel is 100x150, or 15000 SF per floor. Wood construction can’t be more than 6 stories high (maybe I’ve seen 7 near Shockoe bottom but that won’t affect the thought experiment too much). With perfect efficiency (which is impossible because that would mean no hallways, leasing office, amenities, storage, etc.) the average unit would have to be 497 SF (15000 SF/floor x 6 floors/181 units). I can’t imagine they would go for an average unit that small, and once you have physically possible efficiency the average unit would have to be even smaller. So, I think they will go up higher than stick frame would allow. Plus, it’ll have to be on a podium which will add some stories. 
 

Now, I don’t know how they could get steel construction to pencil out, but I can’t figure out how most of the deals in this city are penciling, so what do I know?

So something < 500 sq ft sounds basically like a shoebox - and somehow it doesn't make sense to me as a layman to build 6 floors worth of shoeboxes on top of a podium in downtown RVA. Do you think there's ANY way we get 10 stories, including parking and ground-level retail?  If, to account for units that are > 500 sq ft - plus hallways and the other items -- if that took it to, say, 8 floors of apartments - how many levels of podium plus ground-level commercial - do you think a 181-unit building might call for?

After reading your analysis, I start to worry that we might end up with one of those nice -- but in all honesty disappointing -- 8-story models like we're getting at Madison and Broad. Mind you -- it's a nice building, and I do indeed like it.  But it'd be even nicer -- and I'd like it even more -- if it was 12 or 14 stories (or more). Or the ones down around 1st and Canal - I think the biggest one is maybe 7 or 8 stories (if that)? Again a nice building - but all-in-all - meh.

Maybe I'm expecting too much - but I just don't want block after block after block to start getting cluttered up with 6 to 8 story mid-rises (or WORSE - less than 6 stories - GOD-FORBID!) in THIS part of town. (I'm sorry, but there's PLENTY of space in the city -- OUTSIDE OF DOWNTOWN -- to plunk 6, 7, 8-story mid-rises - this ain't NYC where buildings on top of buildings are built on top of other buildings! Loads of available elbow room and land on which to build.)  And I say this because my biggest issue/fear is - WHERE will the high-rises go when the economy improves, construction costs improve and RVA's market size increases if so much developable space is suddenly taken by buildings that are too small but too new and aren't going to be taken down and replaced with something bigger?

Again - maybe I'm expecting too much.

Edited January 4, 2023 by I miss RVA

[wrldcoupe4]

I could envision a precast 10-12 story here similar to the Locks Tower. 

[I miss RVA]

5 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

I could envision a precast 10-12 story here similar to the Locks Tower. 

THAT'S music to my ears (eyes?), Coupe!! You made my morning, brother. 

AND - from your keyboard to God's eyes!

And guys - while it might not be 15 or 20 stories or iconic - at this point, give me something with 12 floors, perhaps designed like the Icon up in Scott's or the Bakery Lofts over on 17th Street - and it'll work. It'll bring density. It'll be noticeable on the skyline. And the more of THESE puppies with double-digit floors we can get - the more I think we can push through the ceiling (so to speak) and prove to developers that spending a few extra bucks to go higher will STILL make them money - if we can get these buildings built and filled straight away. What's the old saying - success breeds success. Give me 12 stories at 5th and Franklin. Maybe the next one down the road will be 15 stories. Before long we'll get us a few nice 25-story residential towers under way and the rest will be history!

Edited January 4, 2023 by I miss RVA

[I miss RVA]

Folks, I thought we could have a look at how this potential new apartment building at 5th and E. Franklin might connect with other development downtown and contribute to the overall synergy of what has the potential to be a tremendous rebirth of central downtown. The location of this building is prime - and if there is significant construction (particularly something of any decent size similar to what had been previously planned with the original "City Center" project on E. Grace or the two empty parcels on E. Broad as envisioned in the Navy Hill plan - this new apartment building could really "connect" with the southern-most part of the new City Center District, given proximity catty-corner across 5th and Franklin. 

On the over map, the new apartment building is designated by the yellow box. The possible City Center developments are marked by the orange boxes. And a vacant lot at the northeast corner of 4th and Franklin (right next to the Richmond Free Press building) is marked by the light blue box. That vacant lot really is the only open/developable block along Franklin Street itself west of this new apartment building. Note the Sea of Parking Lots to the south and southwest of 5th and Franklin - SOOO much potential!

 

The second is the rendering taken from the Navy Hill plan - showing the 20-plus story mixed-use/residential buildings on E. Broad and the mixed-used development on Grace Street. I've added in a "relatively" scaled block to represent the new apartment building to give some perspective of how close to what could rise in City Center this new apartment building is. The proximity is key. If this building is constructed - and if the City Center developments rise - we can see how this will significantly impact the central-most part of downtown. The "confluence" in this area (within a few blocks) of three primary downtown districts -- City Center, Capital/Financal District and Monroe Ward -- has SO much potential to add to downtown's transformation if fully built out. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by I miss RVA

[blopp1234]

I’d be shocked if this lot doesn’t sprout something over 10 stories. The 15 story tower going up in Monroe Ward along Grace Street has 171 units. If you add in parking, to this development, which I hope there is very minimal to none, we could easily see 15+ stories on this site.

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, blopp1234 said:

I’d be shocked if this lot doesn’t sprout something over 10 stories. The 15 story tower going up in Monroe Ward along Grace Street has 171 units. If you add in parking, to this development, which I hope there is very minimal to none, we could easily see 15+ stories on this site.

Good call on that, @blopp1234!! I didn't realize the Parc View will have 171 units and it'll hit 16 stories - (maybe the unit count even went up above 171 when they decided to add the 16th level?) -- and I think the footprints are pretty similar in terms of square footage (even if they're slightly differently shaped - Parc View's footprint is more squared where as 5th and Franklin is far more rectangular.

Idk what the parking minimums are in a B-4 zoned area. I'm guessing though there would likely be at least a couple of levels - though it would be pretty cool if we could get that minimized - all the better for encouraging public transit usage and sneaker-transit, which is always a good thing for downtown. Still - getting to 15 stories (or more!) would really be sweet! 

Edited January 5, 2023 by I miss RVA

[upzoningisgood]

12 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

Good call on that, @blopp1234!! I didn't realize the Parc View will have 171 units and it'll hit 16 stories - (maybe the unit count even went up above 171 when they decided to add the 16th level?) -- and I think the footprints are pretty similar in terms of square footage (even if they're slightly differently shaped - Parc View's footprint is more squared where as 5th and Franklin is far more rectangular.

Idk what the parking minimums are in a B-4 zoned area. I'm guessing though there would likely be at least a couple of levels - though it would be pretty cool if we could get that minimized - all the better for encouraging public transit usage and sneaker-transit, which is always a good thing for downtown. Still - getting to 15 stories (or more!) would really be sweet! 

Parc View is also student housing so the units are much bigger than standard MF. So, the residential component be taller than the standard 171-unit building.

[Icetera]

7 hours ago, upzoningisgood said:

Parc View is also student housing so the units are much bigger than standard MF. So, the residential component be taller than the standard 171-unit building.

Good point, at 509 beds it looks like it is averaging to be mostly 3 BDR units (1, 2, 3, and 4 BDR units available).  If we assume an average unit size being 2 BDR (probably optimistic), then we are probably aiming for 12 floors here.

https://parcviewatcommonwealth.com/

https://www.pinecrestus.com/properties/

[I miss RVA]

32 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Good point, at 509 beds it looks like it is averaging to be mostly 3 BDR units (1, 2, 3, and 4 BDR units available).  If we assume an average unit size being 2 BDR (probably optimistic), then we are probably aiming for 12 floors here.

https://parcviewatcommonwealth.com/

https://www.pinecrestus.com/properties/

True - the mix of 2 BDR vs 1 BDR vs studio (if there are any) will be the key.

Here's hoping you're right on this one, Ice - 12 stories would certainly work for me at this point. We're all excited about the project formerly known as The Admiral clocking in at 12 floors - so if we could eek out 12 floors from 5th and Franklin, I think we'd be doing pretty well right now.

[I miss RVA]

A thought just occurred to me: I'm curious if this new building COULD be something along the lines of the Opus up on W. Broad? Even through I believe that building is, like Parc View, for student housing, and it's on a squared footprint, I'm curious if we might see something like that building actually rise at 5th and E. Franklin?

[Icetera]

While talking about Franklin building, I really would love to hear some updates on the 11-story tower at 1801 E. Main St.  Not a peep since seeing core sampling a year or so ago.  The mass on the corner would really change the dynamic of 18th and Main.

[I miss RVA]

29 minutes ago, Icetera said:

While talking about Franklin building, I really would love to hear some updates on the 11-story tower at 1801 E. Main St.  Not a peep since seeing core sampling a year or so ago.  The mass on the corner would really change the dynamic of 18th and Main.

I second that vote!! That project crossed my mind recently as well. Total radio silence on that one - and if memory serves, the project was approved, no? (Or was that an up-zoning request?)

[ancientcarpenter]

Mike from RBS in a different thread said he believes it is 10 stories.

 

Looking at the aerial view, I had no idea that was a parking deck... I never gave that building a second thought as it was always so badly run down. I also cannot believe that it has rooftop parking on it... I honestly didn't think that building was structurally safe to hold that convenience store much less cars on the roof.

[benstyree]

1 hour ago, ancientcarpenter said:

Mike from RBS in a different thread said he believes it is 10 stories.

 

Looking at the aerial view, I had no idea that was a parking deck... I never gave that building a second thought as it was always so badly run down. I also cannot believe that it has rooftop parking on it... I honestly didn't think that building was structurally safe to hold that convenience store much less cars on the roof.

I just went to Street View to confirm which building this is.  I'm no structural engineer, but....buckling brick panels can't be good, right??  And this was from 2019...the sooner this goes down, the better.

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, benstyree said:

I just went to Street View to confirm which building this is.  I'm no structural engineer, but....buckling brick panels can't be good, right??  And this was from 2019...the sooner this goes down, the better.

This is a SERIOUS accident waiting to happen. Agreed - this building needs to be taken down like yesterday. Wow... didn't know it was THAT bad.