Orange & Robinson Apartments | 11-story residential [Under Construction]

[JFW657]

On 7/25/2020 at 10:18 PM, smonteserin said:

This building makes a definite impact as infill driving West on I-4. I drove through downtown to see the way the new layout and scale of I-4 changes the views and feel, and this on in particular surprised me, along with the Lakehouse and  the Yard projects, as well as the under construction apartments in Advent Health Village.  I think the height of the new Ultimate I-4 lanes give a novel view.  

 

On 7/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, smonteserin said:

I'll have to drive down again with a socially distanced cameraman, eventually. I-4 was a bit harrowing at that hour. 

From a video on YouTube I took this screenshot....

....I-4 eastbound.

[jack]

On 7/24/2020 at 1:05 PM, spenser1058 said:

Oddly, economists have said going vertical should help make downtowns affordable. It’s unfortunate the greed of developers hasn’t made that true. If it were, I’d welcome much taller buildings downtown.

The more you build, prices will be lower compared to restricting housing. If downtown Orlando was as popular with half of the current supply of housing, prices would be at a minimum, 20% higher. 

The most expensive housing in the country are in places that are popular and restrictive development policies.   

[jack]

On 7/25/2020 at 2:19 PM, elefants said:

I'd love to see a developer not provide parking in a mid rise. I imagine people living in a building without a parking garage would be more receptive to the ideas of using public transportation and walking.  Instead of the city focusing on the street parking, they could concentrate their efforts on better bus service and sidewalks.

It will be next to impossible to get it financed. I know Zom was doing some projects in Brickell that did not have parking. But they would not do it here. 

I am not sure at what point DT Orlando will be ready to ditch their parking garages. Since the city owns so many public garages, they would be a good source if their daytime revenue starts going down. 

Also, it will probably be the office buildings that reduce their parking onsite, not residential buildings. 

[codypet]

3 hours ago, jack said:

Also, it will probably be the office buildings that reduce their parking onsite, not residential buildings. 

Sunrail will need much more acceptance before that happens.

[AmIReal]

18 minutes ago, codypet said:

Sunrail will need much more acceptance before that happens.

You're probably right, but often times the plan is to incent the change to mass transit by making cars more burdensome. Parking downtown is already pretty expensive, but what if it was really expensive and if Sunrail was free. Would that increase ridership?

[jack]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

Sunrail will need much more acceptance before that happens.

True but but some number of people will live downtown and walk to work. But their car will need to be parked at their apartment. 

[nite owℓ]

Forgot to post this. View heading down Orange Ave:

[nite owℓ]

On 7/8/2020 at 8:10 AM, codypet said:

Very Recently.  CNB is on the Dupont Building.  That just happened.

City National Bank has one of the ugliest looking logos - it looks like a cheap banner plastered on top of the old Bank of America building. Horrid .

[smileguy]

On 7/27/2020 at 9:43 AM, jack said:

It will be next to impossible to get it financed. I know Zom was doing some projects in Brickell that did not have parking. But they would not do it here. 

I am not sure at what point DT Orlando will be ready to ditch their parking garages. Since the city owns so many public garages, they would be a good source if their daytime revenue starts going down. 

Also, it will probably be the office buildings that reduce their parking onsite, not residential buildings. 

I think we should be looking for reduction, not elimination of parking minimums.  It's a lot easier for a household to move from owning 2 cars to 1 car, than to go without a car at all.   I do think the City (and private owners) should look at spaces in their garages that routinely go empty, and make them available to offset parking requirements at nearby residential developments, allowing better use of what is already built and fewer new spaces.  

[elefants]

2 hours ago, smileguy said:

I think we should be looking for reduction, not elimination of parking minimums.  It's a lot easier for a household to move from owning 2 cars to 1 car, than to go without a car at all.   I do think the City (and private owners) should look at spaces in their garages that routinely go empty, and make them available to offset parking requirements at nearby residential developments, allowing better use of what is already built and fewer new spaces.  

An elimination of parking minimums is effectively just reduction.  While it could be possible for buildings to pop up without parking spaces,  those would be very few and far between.

Edited July 28, 2020 by elefants

[JFW657]

Who would move into a building with no attached parking in downtown Orlando?

Nobody, that's who.

Maybe in NYC or some other old, established city where residential units are in super high demand, many of the old apartment buildings pre-date the automobile age and mass transit is so plentiful it's ingrained in the mindset, a lack of parking is not much of an issue.

But anyone unwise enough to attempt such a thing here, or to loan someone money to attempt such a thing, would regret it.

Orlando is an automobile city. A spread out metro area with little in the way of mass transportation. Everyone owns a car and nobody wants to even think about being stuck without one.

A small office building located fairly near an existing garage that would allow parking for employees could work, but that's about it.

[spenser1058]

19 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Who would move into a building with no attached parking in downtown Orlando?

Nobody, that's who.

Maybe in NYC or some other old, established city where residential units are in super high demand, many of the old apartment buildings pre-date the automobile age and mass transit is so plentiful it's ingrained in the mindset, a lack of parking is not much of an issue.

But anyone unwise enough to attempt such a thing here, or to loan someone money to attempt such a thing, would regret it.

Orlando is an automobile city. A spread out metro area with little in the way of mass transportation. Everyone owns a car and nobody wants to even think about being stuck without one.

A small office building located fairly near an existing garage that would allow parking for employees could work, but that's about it.

Interesting. The Washington Post auto critic once observed that if you put less than 5,000 miles on a car per year, you probably shouldn’t have one. He notes that’s why God invented ZipCar (it’s worth noting there’s a dedicated space for one next to the park on Eola Drive).

Now that I work at home, I’ll be lucky if I do 3,500 miles this year (and most of that is because, at 61, I can’t do as many trips to NSB on my bike as I once did -I need more recovery time).

So, is Warren Brown incorrect or are you locked in a 1960’s boomer-centric mind set? I guess we’ll find out.

Edited July 28, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

An even more interesting test: I paid off my 2012 Focus in late 2017 so I have no car payment. I bought it new and averaged about 6500 miles so today I have <50000 miles on it.

If you’re familiar with that vintage Focus, you may know Ford screwed up the transmission badly. Sure enough, mine had an almost complete failure. However, since that was a recall item, Ford picked up the $2500 tab. Since then, it’s run like a dream. With <3500 miles annually, my repair costs are minimal. As I noted on another thread, I have one of those gizmos where if you drive nicely, you get a break on insurance. It also factors in mileage so my car insurance is quite low.

Here’s the kicker: if my landlord offered me, say, a $50-$75/month reduction to give up my “free”, covered parking space? For me, it would be a no-brainer. I’d do it. That’s a minimum savings of $600/year, just on parking.

If you’re not tied to a suburban mind set, it’s quite doable. My church, the library, the Y, my favorite restaurant, my favorite bar, are all in walking distance. Why would I need a car? I might have to buy more at my Eola Publix but I’m sure @nite owℓ would forgive me.

Edited July 28, 2020 by spenser1058

[gibby]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Who would move into a building with no attached parking in downtown Orlando?

I would.

[AmIReal]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

at 61

making you the same age as Mayor Dyer who yesterday you compared to Earl K Wood and John Land, both who were in the 90's while in office.

[spenser1058]

Just now, AmIReal said:

making you the same age as Mayor Dyer who yesterday you compared to Earl K Wood and John Land, both who were in the 90's while in office.

I was comparing them based on what he’s currently doing in office (occupying space) and I stand by the comparison.

it does, however, bring up a valid point. The mayor of Orlando has long punched above his weight thanks to the strong mayor system under which the city operates. It allows he or she to control all the functions of city government and to mostly control the council.

A few years ago, Beth Kassab ran a contest to determine the best downtowns in Central Florida. As you may remember, the top two were DeLand and Winter Garden.

That led many to wonder how a strong mayor city, Apopka, was nowhere in sight. The answer was that John Land hadn’t been doing much of anything for some time. 

The same is pretty much true of Buddy over the last several years. There is a complete lack of determining a vision of what the city could be and how to get there. Instead, there’s simply been an abdication to give any developer what he or she wants. A pity, really. We could be much better.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Interesting. The Washington Post auto critic once observed that if you put less than 5,000 miles on a car per year, you probably shouldn’t have one. He notes that’s why God invented ZipCar (it’s worth noting there’s a dedicated space for one next to the park on Eola Drive).

Now that I work at home, I’ll be lucky if I do 3,500 miles this year (and most of that is because, at 61, I can’t do as many trips to NSB on my bike as I once did -I need more recovery time).

So, is Warren Brown incorrect or are you locked in a 1960’s boomer-centric mind set? I guess we’ll find out.

Well..... if the Washington Post auto critic said it..... 

How many years did he live in Orlando, btw? 

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

An even more interesting test: I paid off my 2012 Focus in late 2017 so I have no car payment. I bought it new and averaged about 6500 miles so today I have <50000 miles on it.

If you’re familiar with that vintage Focus, you may know Ford screwed up the transmission badly. Sure enough, mine had an almost complete failure. However, since that was a recall item, Ford picked up the $2500 tab. Since then, it’s run like a dream. With <3500 miles annually, my repair costs are minimal. As I noted on another thread, I have one of those gizmos where if you drive nicely, you get a break on insurance. It also factors in mileage so my car insurance is quite low.

Here’s the kicker: if my landlord offered me, say, a $50-$75/month reduction to give up my “free”, covered parking space? For me, it would be a no-brainer. I’d do it. That’s a minimum savings of $600/year, just on parking.

If you’re not tied to a suburban mind set, it’s quite doable. My church, the library, the Y, my favorite restaurant, my favorite bar, are all in walking distance. Why would I need a car? I might have to buy more at my Eola Publix but I’m sure @nite owℓ would forgive me.

And "of course" almost everyone who lives downtown is in exactly the same situation as you are re: working from home and the places you find yourself needing or wanting to go during the course of an average week or month that are all within walking distance. 

Sure.

By golly, it really is a no-brainer!!!!  

Because you don't need a car.... means that nobody else needs a car!!!  I get it now!!!! 

That's the way things work. Anecdotal evidence always proves everything. 

BTW, I have, for the past decade or so, put less than 2,000 miles per year on my car. And I don't even live downtown where you can walk to Publix.  And I think my annual mileage is dropping, too.

The thing about cars is.... even if you rarely use one, occasionally you might find yourself in an emergency situation in which you need to get somewhere in a hurry that's way too far to walk. Or maybe you just want to head up to Winter Park or down to I-Drive and you don't want to spend hours screwing around with Orlando's crappy bus system or stand around waiting for the next SunRail, then being tethered to their schedule. For such reasons alone, people want to have their cars available.

Expecting large numbers of people to give up their cars just so downtown Orlando will look more attractive and appealing or will have a more "urban feel" isn't very realistic. Most people don't even think about the kinds of things we talk about here.

Cars are synonymous with freedom and most people want and need that feeling of freedom and independence that they provide.

It has nothing to do with having a "1960's boomer-centric mindset".  

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, gibby said:

I would.

I'm sure a few others would too.

But the question is, would enough people be willing to join you in giving up their cars, to fill up multiple downtown high rise residential buildings?

I'm thinking probably not.

54 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I was comparing them based on what he’s currently doing in office (occupying space) and I stand by the comparison.

it does, however, bring up a valid point. The mayor of Orlando has long punched above his weight thanks to the strong mayor system under which the city operates. It allows he or she to control all the functions of city government and to mostly control the council.

A few years ago, Beth Kassab ran a contest to determine the best downtowns in Central Florida. As you may remember, the top two were DeLand and Winter Garden.

That led many to wonder how a strong mayor city, Apopka, was nowhere in sight. The answer was that John Land hadn’t been doing much of anything for some time. 

The same is pretty much true of Buddy over the last several years. There is a complete lack of determining a vision of what the city could be and how to get there. Instead, there’s simply been an abdication to give any developer what he or she wants. A pity, really. We could be much better.

Go Buddy - Go Buddy - Go Buddy - Go Buddy..... 

[spenser1058]

55 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Well..... if the Washington Post auto critic said it..... 

How many years did he live in Orlando, btw? 

And "of course" almost everyone who lives downtown is in exactly the same situation as you are re: working from home and the places you find yourself needing or wanting to go during the course of an average week or month that are all within walking distance. 

Sure.

By golly, it really is a no-brainer!!!!  

Because you don't need a car.... means that nobody else needs a car!!!  I get it now!!!! 

That's the way things work. Anecdotal evidence always proves everything. 

BTW, I have, for the past decade or so, put less than 2,000 miles per year on my car. And I don't even live downtown where you can walk to Publix.  And I think my annual mileage is dropping, too.

The thing about cars is.... even if you rarely use one, occasionally you might find yourself in an emergency situation in which you need to get somewhere in a hurry that's way too far to walk. Or maybe you just want to head up to Winter Park or down to I-Drive and you don't want to spend hours screwing around with Orlando's crappy bus system or stand around waiting for the next SunRail, then being tethered to their schedule. For such reasons alone, people want to have their cars available.

Expecting large numbers of people to give up their cars just so downtown Orlando will look more attractive and appealing or will have a more "urban feel" isn't very realistic. Most people don't even think about the kinds of things we talk about here.

Cars are synonymous with freedom and most people want and need that feeling of freedom and independence that they provide.

It has nothing to do with having a "1960's boomer-centric mindset".  

So, nothing can ever change. The most wasteful period of American history must be preserved. I have to admit with that sort of thinking I know why the Millennials and Zoomers say what they do about us.

Btw, I can turn that around. Why do you think everyone wants to live like YOU do?

Which, of course, is the point of what we are trying to do. We know those in the suburbs like yourself out there displacing untold amounts of hydrocarbons refuse to change anything about their lifestyle (in fact, it’s getting worse - houses keep getting bigger as families keep getting smaller and, because they’re too unfit to get in regular cars any more, insist on buying SUVs that, as much as they improve them, still require more resources than regular cars).

But, because it’s your God-given right as ‘Muricans to waste, we were happy to leave you out there in your destructive suburbs. We just asked for one cul-de-sac free part of town where that was unnecessary.

But no, just like the guy one day in his F-250 who insisted I was in his way on 4-laned Old Winter Garden Rd as I rode my bike on the right shoulder with very light traffic, it was inconvenient for him to simply switch lanes and go on. Instead, I was disturbing his God-given right to own both lanes and needed to get off his highway like a “real man”. True story.

The sense of entitlement is sometimes shocking even after being raised in the ‘burbs for the first two decades of my life.

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I was comparing them based on what he’s currently doing in office (occupying space) and I stand by the comparison.

I just assumed since you referenced collecting social security you were discussing their ages... I didn't get that it was a policy dispute.

 

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

There is a complete lack of determining a vision of what the city could be and how to get there

You keep saying this so I'll keep saying that the overwhelming majority of Orlando citizens who vote seem to agree with his "vision". You apparently do not share his vision, but that does not mean he doesn't have one and that it has not been articulated- he does so every year in his State address..  If a good candidate comes along and can put forth better ideas I think they would be well received.

37 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

But no, just like the guy one day in his F-250 who insisted I was in his way on 4-laned Old Winter Garden Rd as I rode my bike on the right shoulder with very light traffic, it was inconvenient for him to simply switch lanes and go on. Instead, I was disturbing his God-given right to own both lanes and needed to get off his highway like a “real man”. True story.

The sense of entitlement is sometimes shocking even after being raised in the ‘burbs for the first two decades of my life.

Generalize much...?

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

So, nothing can ever change. The most wasteful period of American history must be preserved. I have to admit with that sort of thinking I know why the Millennials and Zoomers say what they do about us.

Btw, I can turn that around. Why do you think everyone wants to live like YOU do?

Which, of course, is the point of what we are trying to do. We know those in the suburbs like yourself out there displacing untold amounts of hydrocarbons refuse to change anything about their lifestyle (in fact, it’s getting worse - houses keep getting bigger as families keep getting smaller and, because they’re too unfit to get in regular cars any more, insist on buying SUVs that, as much as they improve them, still require more resources than regular cars).

But, because it’s your God-given right as ‘Muricans to waste, we were happy to leave you out there in your destructive suburbs. We just asked for one cul-de-sac free part of town where that was unnecessary.

But no, just like the guy one day in his F-250 who insisted I was in his way on 4-laned Old Winter Garden Rd as I rode my bike on the right shoulder with very light traffic, it was inconvenient for him to simply switch lanes and go on. Instead, I was disturbing his God-given right to own both lanes and needed to get off his highway like a “real man”. True story.

The sense of entitlement is sometimes shocking even after being raised in the ‘burbs for the first two decades of my life.

It's not a matter of "nothing CAN ever change", it's a matter of "WILL it ever change?" and I think the answer is not any time soon. It's not that I don't agree that fewer cars would be a good thing. That is obvious. My point is that I don't see large numbers of people in a city like Orlando giving their cars up, no matter how much we may not like it.

It's called "living in the real world". You should try it sometime.

I don't "think" everyone wants to live like me. I did not use my own situation as anecdotal evidence of how necessary cars are. You used yours (re: working at home and riding a bike to work out etc, etc.) as some kind of "proof" that anyone who lives downtown can get by without a car. 

But when it comes to automobiles in Orlando, it's obvious that I understand something about the prevailing attitude, otherwise we would not be having this discussion to begin with.

Would we?

IOW, if everyone didn't want and need their cars, you'd have nothing to be complaining about.

Would you?

And btw, you tend to make a lot of assumptions and presumptions about the character of people you don't even know. Incorrect ones, I might add. Just because someone sees a certain situation in a different light than you do, is no reason to ascribe negative personal attributes to them.

I'll match my water and electricity usage/carbon footprint against yours or anyone else's (per an OUC Personalized Home Utility Report) any day and bet anything you want that my usage is lower than yours.

Edited July 29, 2020 by JFW657

[codypet]

20 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

If you’re familiar with that vintage Focus, you may know Ford screwed up the transmission badly. Sure enough, mine had an almost complete failure. However, since that was a recall item, Ford picked up the $2500 tab. Since then, it’s run like a dream. With <3500 miles annually, my repair costs are minimal. As I noted on another thread, I have one of those gizmos where if you drive nicely, you get a break on insurance. It also factors in mileage so my car insurance is quite low.

Oh man!  My coworker had one of these and just unloaded it.  She was having the aforementioned transmission problems and was not aware of the recall.  I told her about it, Ford fixed it, and she dumped the car on a friend of her's who wanted it knowing the problems.   Hilariously enough, that friend has had it for 6 months and says its been problem free.  My coworker was so ready to dump it with the problems she says she still doesn't even like looking at it.

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, codypet said:

Oh man!  My coworker had one of these and just unloaded it.  She was having the aforementioned transmission problems and was not aware of the recall.  I told her about it, Ford fixed it, and she dumped the car on a friend of her's who wanted it knowing the problems.   Hilariously enough, that friend has had it for 6 months and says its been problem free.  My coworker was so ready to dump it with the problems she says she still doesn't even like looking at it.

It’s amazing. Once they fixed the tranny, it’s been the best compact car I’ve ever had. Sadly, I’m told that was one of the reasons they ditched the Focus, even though compact cars are one of the few non-SUV/truck categories that are still popular.

I got spoiled by the way small cars handled with my Fiat Spider back in my Nashville days, and since then I’ve never wanted to drive a big car, much less a truck or an SUV. Too bad the boomers spent too much time away from the gym and can’t get in small cars any more. Oh well, the car companies like charging them extra unnecessarily for the land tugs and barges.

[AndyPok1]

Not gonna lie, I skimmed a bit of the back and forth.  And I've made this argument before.  But I think you are vastly overrating the practicability of true urbanism in Orlando despite wanting it to be so.  55 West for as long as I lived there basically had 0 free parking spots.  I know people that had to park in the Suntrust garage across the street (not a deal breaker for me, but for plenty of people it would be).  My 2 bedroom wasn't even "guaranteed" a second parking spot.  And it's not like, oh, just find a street parking spot, because they are basically all metered and very few nearby.

Like it or not, a significant portion of downtown residents are A) reverse commuters and B) not families.  There is no way to not have a car.  Even if you work from home, it is VERY difficult and you have to be VERY committed.    Sure, you can go to the grocery and out to eat.  But it starts failing unless your entire circle is similar.  My friends live downtown, Wadeview, Mills 50, Curry Ford, Lake Davis, Lake Como, College Park.  Some of these are hour+ walks, and better hope I don't need to bring food or drinks for the party.  Heck, just to one of my friend's house that is 1.2 miles away, its a 38 minute walk because of Boone and Hourglass Lake in the way.  Its just not practical.

With all that said, I recently started looking into selling my car because while the $10 Uber trips will add up, it will be cheaper than the $500/mo car payment, and in this exact situation of permanent WFH and pandemic it makes sense, at least in the short term... but I don't even know the first place of trying to sell a 6 month old used car with 4000 miles to even remotely break even on the transaction without buying a new car to replace it.  

[spenser1058]

I’d agree that it wouldn’t work for any neighborhoods south of the East-West or north of Colonial.

For me, it basically works living at Eola Park with neighbors in Eola Heights, South Eola, Thornton Park and part of Lawsona. Also, the Met across the lake.

Of course, if you’re a parent doing soccer mom duties, the kids would need to go to St. James or one of the other downtown church schools, Howard, the Y’s programs or Hillcrest. Interestingly, the Boone and LHPS cross country teams already ran by here regularly pre-COVID.

More importantly, you bring up the point of an increased need for retail downtown and a need for an expanded Lynx.

Like the urban pioneers that took over fading neighborhoods, this would require those willing to do things differently and work aggressively for more of the services they need.

For most folks, it wouldn’t work, but it would finally be an option for those that wish to move beyond automobility. The goal is not to change anyone’s lifestyle but to provide something different for those who desire it.

99% suburban and autocentric-1% pure urban

Edited July 29, 2020 by spenser1058