CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Norm2]

6 hours ago, kayman said:

Yes, the Gateway Station will be the Red Line terminus.  Some type of inhabitable structure with the Red Line, Amtrak, (possibly Greyhound) would be constructed if the referendum is passed while the private developer gets their "ish" together.

Stay tuned to the "what" will happen with the Silver Line. I am not at liberty to say what might happen because of my role, but something will be announced if the transit sales tax referendum is passed for the public vote by the NCGA. 

This will probably not happen, but I hope that the Silver Line can at least go to Bojangles Arena Ovens Auditorium from the Airport. I know there has been talk of having the Silver Line go to Belmont, but I think the line shouldn't go that far

6 hours ago, kayman said:

Yes, the Gateway Station will be the Red Line terminus.  Some type of inhabitable structure with the Red Line, Amtrak, (possibly Greyhound) would be constructed if the referendum is passed while the private developer gets their "ish" together.

Stay tuned to the "what" will happen with the Silver Line. I am not at liberty to say what might happen because of my role, but something will be announced if the transit sales tax referendum is passed for the public vote by the NCGA. 

This will probably not happen, but I hope that the Silver Line can at least go to Bojangles Arena Ovens Auditorium from the Airport. I know there has been talk of having the Silver Line go to Belmont, but I think the line shouldn't go that far

[kayman]

9 hours ago, Norm2 said:

This will probably not happen, but I hope that the Silver Line can at least go to Bojangles Arena Ovens Auditorium from the Airport. I know there has been talk of having the Silver Line go to Belmont, but I think the line shouldn't go that far

This will probably not happen, but I hope that the Silver Line can at least go to Bojangles Arena Ovens Auditorium from the Airport. I know there has been talk of having the Silver Line go to Belmont, but I think the line shouldn't go that far

NCDOT Rail division has admitted that they dropped the ball on prioritization of the Gateway Station project.  There are initial talks between NCDOT and the private developer about the interim structure to be located at the Uptown site so they can decommission the current Charlotte Amtrak station off North Tryon in the next few years. Also, Amtrak nor NCDOT want to pour any additional public funds into the current antiqued North Tryon structure because it would be a huge waste. The Charlotte Amtrak station is the basically busiest Amtrak station in the state and between the DC's Union Station and the Amtrak stations in Florida, so there might be movement on this proposed interim structure on a portion of the Gateway Station site soon.

On the LYNX Silver Line, don't be surprised if there is a project alignment from Uptown to the CLT Airport tossed into the mix instead of the current prioritized alignment proposal from Uptown to Matthews.  The leg beyond the CLT Airport transit station to Belmont would only be designed if Gaston County provides the funding to get it beyond the current locally preferred alignment (LPA) assignment.  Also, NCDOT would have to design a replacement superstructure to accommodate vehicles, cyclists, pedestrians, and rail transit right-of-way for the current US 29/74 bridge structure over the Catawba River if there is any movement with the portion beyond the CLT Airport station to the proposed Belmont terminus. 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

 Also, NCDOT would have to design a replacement superstructure to accommodate vehicles, cyclists, pedestrians, and rail transit right-of-way for the current US 29/74 bridge structure over the Catawba River if there is any movement with the portion beyond the CLT Airport station to the proposed Belmont terminus. 

I had thought this was a done deal? The necessary 74 bridge rebuild was the thing that allowed Belmont to posture like they would pay for Silver Line access?

It would blow my mind if NCDOT rebuilt the bridge in a way that would not accommodate LRT, but that would not be the first time I have seen NCDOT make weird choices.

[kermit]

The first official word on the O-Line deal with NS is now out. Trains reports that "Charlotte" will acquire 29.04 miles of the O-Line between Charlotte and Mooresville. They got their info from a regulatory filing to the Surface Transportation board. The implication of the article is 'acquire' means 'purchase' although NS will retain rights to run freight on the line.  There are no details about what 'rights to run freight' means. But this does tell us that:

• Heavy rail must be the technology used on the tracks (not LRT) (this wasn't really in doubt)
• The line is subject to intermittent use by NS which may make high platforms more difficult / expensive for CATS. If platforms are low then dwell times will be longer
• This may also rule out electrification on the line. If so this will limit frequencies.
• Mooresville purchase endpoint is interesting, although probably just reflective of the ‘track unit’ that NS was willing to sell.
• I am a little surprised that this wasn't paired with an NCDOT purchase of the remainder of the line to Winston. There is no hurry for this so maybe later
• NS did include trackage rights on their main around Gateway station (per map)

We still need more info before we can get a sense of what the Red Line will look like, but overall this is good news. A purchase is much better for CATS than time sharing or leasing the line. This is probably a second best outcome here (would have been better if NS sold 100% of the rights to the line), but It was also unrealistic to expect that NS would walk away completely.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/virginia-and-charlotte-n-c-officially-to-acquire-norfolk-southern-routes/

 

Edited June 12 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

5 hours ago, kermit said:

The first official word on the O-Line deal with NS is now out. Trains reports that "Charlotte" will acquire 29.04 miles of the O-Line between Charlotte and Mooresville. They got their info from a regulatory filing to the Surface Transportation board. The implication of the article is 'acquire' means 'purchase' although NS will retain rights to run freight on the line.  There are no details about what 'rights to run freight' means. But this does tell us that:

• Heavy rail must be the technology used on the tracks (not LRT) (this wasn't really in doubt)
• The line is subject to intermittent use by NS which may make high platforms more difficult / expensive for CATS. If platforms are low then dwell times will be longer
• This may also rule out electrification on the line. If so this will limit frequencies.
• Mooresville purchase endpoint is interesting
• I am a little surprised that this wasn't paired with an NCDOT purchase of the remainder of the line to Winston. There is no hurry for this so maybe later
• NS did provide CATS with trackage rights on their main around Gateway station (per map)

We still need more info before we can get a sense of what the Red Line will look like, but overall this is good news. A purchase is much better for CATS than time sharing or leasing the line. This is probably a second best outcome here (would have been better if NS sold 100% of the rights to the line), but It was also unrealistic to expect that NS would walk away completely.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/virginia-and-charlotte-n-c-officially-to-acquire-norfolk-southern-routes/

 

As far as platforms, couldn't they create side spurs that would have a different height? 

[kermit]

26 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

As far as platforms, couldn't they create side spurs that would have a different height? 

yea, that is the most common solution. That would be expensive and take up lots of space in the constrained ROW. But it should be doable.

[kayman]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

I had thought this was a done deal? The necessary 74 bridge rebuild was the thing that allowed Belmont to posture like they would pay for Silver Line access?

It would blow my mind if NCDOT rebuilt the bridge in a way that would not accommodate LRT, but that would not be the first time I have seen NCDOT make weird choices.

Nothing involving the Charlotte area is guaranteed with NCDOT.  Based on my knowledge and multitude of dealings with NCDOT, I'm of the opinion far too many in the main offices of NCDOT and the NC Board of Transportation lowkey hate Charlotte because it's bigger and growing faster than Raleigh-Durham.  The way things will be "promised" and reneged on by NCDOT with this region is extremely embarrassing.  That's why I say "allegedly" a lot because although it is written in documents and announced it could change in a heartbeat by them.

[RANYC]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

The first official word on the O-Line deal with NS is now out. Trains reports that "Charlotte" will acquire 29.04 miles of the O-Line between Charlotte and Mooresville. They got their info from a regulatory filing to the Surface Transportation board. The implication of the article is 'acquire' means 'purchase' although NS will retain rights to run freight on the line.  There are no details about what 'rights to run freight' means. But this does tell us that:

• Heavy rail must be the technology used on the tracks (not LRT) (this wasn't really in doubt)
• The line is subject to intermittent use by NS which may make high platforms more difficult / expensive for CATS. If platforms are low then dwell times will be longer
• This may also rule out electrification on the line. If so this will limit frequencies.
• Mooresville purchase endpoint is interesting, although probably just reflective of the ‘track unit’ that NS was willing to sell.
• I am a little surprised that this wasn't paired with an NCDOT purchase of the remainder of the line to Winston. There is no hurry for this so maybe later
• NS did include trackage rights on their main around Gateway station (per map)

We still need more info before we can get a sense of what the Red Line will look like, but overall this is good news. A purchase is much better for CATS than time sharing or leasing the line. This is probably a second best outcome here (would have been better if NS sold 100% of the rights to the line), but It was also unrealistic to expect that NS would walk away completely.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/virginia-and-charlotte-n-c-officially-to-acquire-norfolk-southern-routes/

 

Very excited by these updates. Between Amtrak dropping off its passengers in uptown and red line riders being dropped off in uptown, those are both great new channels of flow for center city.  

Understand that red line will stay heavy rail and NS doing more of a sale-leaseback transaction.  Do you think this makes it impossible or low priority for there to be a stop at camp north end?

22 hours ago, kayman said:

NCDOT Rail division has admitted that they dropped the ball on prioritization of the Gateway Station project.  There are initial talks between NCDOT and the private developer about the interim structure to be located at the Uptown site so they can decommission the current Charlotte Amtrak station off North Tryon in the next few years. Also, Amtrak nor NCDOT want to pour any additional public funds into the current antiqued North Tryon structure because it would be a huge waste. The Charlotte Amtrak station is the basically busiest Amtrak station in the state and between the DC's Union Station and the Amtrak stations in Florida, so there might be movement on this proposed interim structure on a portion of the Gateway Station site soon.

On the LYNX Silver Line, don't be surprised if there is a project alignment from Uptown to the CLT Airport tossed into the mix instead of the current prioritized alignment proposal from Uptown to Matthews.  The leg beyond the CLT Airport transit station to Belmont would only be designed if Gaston County provides the funding to get it beyond the current locally preferred alignment (LPA) assignment.  Also, NCDOT would have to design a replacement superstructure to accommodate vehicles, cyclists, pedestrians, and rail transit right-of-way for the current US 29/74 bridge structure over the Catawba River if there is any movement with the portion beyond the CLT Airport station to the proposed Belmont terminus. 

I’m so desperate for at least an interim solution at Gateway Station.  Interim solution would need to break ground this year?

Edited June 12 by RANYC

[nyxmike]

If they end up cutting the Silver line to Matthews (for now) and only build the portion from the Airport to Uptown, I wonder if they would reconsider routing so it connects to the Blue line instead? Seems odd to have a random light rail spur that doesn't connect to the existing Blue line...

[southslider]

11 hours ago, RANYC said:

Understand that red line will stay heavy rail and NS doing more of a sale-leaseback transaction.  Do you think this makes it impossible or low priority for there to be a stop at camp north end?

While much of the O-Line has maybe a train a day, the segment between Brookshire and Atando is abandoned.

10 hours ago, nyxmike said:

If they end up cutting the Silver line to Matthews (for now) and only build the portion from the Airport to Uptown, I wonder if they would reconsider routing so it connects to the Blue line instead? Seems odd to have a random light rail spur that doesn't connect to the existing Blue line...

Which is why I'd rather see the Airport build their own connection to Blue Line via Billy Graham.

[kayman]

12 hours ago, RANYC said:

Very excited by these updates. Between Amtrak dropping off its passengers in uptown and red line riders being dropped off in uptown, those are both great new channels of flow for center city.  

Understand that red line will stay heavy rail and NS doing more of a sale-leaseback transaction.  Do you think this makes it impossible or low priority for there to be a stop at camp north end?

I’m so desperate for at least an interim solution at Gateway Station.  Interim solution would need to break ground this year?

The when is the mystery. NCDOT Rail division had discussions with CATS officials and the private developer about this interim facility back in the early spring when the maintenance yard in the Gold District,  but nothing solid came from those discussions.  I believe with this Red Line announcement, those discussions amongst all parties might sped up now.  I would say stay tuned

 

[southslider]

Waiting for a Record of Decision was one of the key delays for Gateway Station. Now that Red Line is more certain and located on the non-P3 side of the station (unlike Silver Line), that uncertainty should be gone. 

[RANYC]

2 hours ago, southslider said:

Waiting for a Record of Decision was one of the key delays for Gateway Station. Now that Red Line is more certain and located on the non-P3 side of the station (unlike Silver Line), that uncertainty should be gone. 

Sounds really promising although I’ve no idea what P-3 side means.

[orulz]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:44 PM, kayman said:

Nothing involving the Charlotte area is guaranteed with NCDOT.  Based on my knowledge and multitude of dealings with NCDOT, I'm of the opinion far too many in the main offices of NCDOT and the NC Board of Transportation lowkey hate Charlotte because it's bigger and growing faster than Raleigh-Durham.  The way things will be "promised" and reneged on by NCDOT with this region is extremely embarrassing.  That's why I say "allegedly" a lot because although it is written in documents and announced it could change in a heartbeat by them.

Sigh, I think the legislature and therefore state government is just overall anti-urban. They are no friend to the city of Raleigh either. Not sure a persecution complex nor infighting between the state's two biggest urban areas is helpful

[tarhoosier]

12 hours ago, southslider said:

While much of the O-Line has maybe a train a day, the segment between Brookshire and Atando is abandoned.

Which is why I'd rather see the Airport build their own connection to Blue Line via Billy Graham.

Is it abandoned or unused?

[kermit]

 

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Sounds really promising although I’ve no idea what P-3 side means.

Public-Private Partnership. This is the Uptown (Graham st) side of the tracks, where the private development (and station) is planned. The platform here has already been built. The Red Line will be on the other side of the tracks.

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Is it abandoned or unused?

Unused (meaning NS still owns the land)

Edited June 13 by kermit

[orulz]

Back on the topic of the Red Line, how are they going to do the connection from the O-line to Gateway? In the past, a big sticking point was the crossing with CSX near NCMF. The 2008 stimulus was supposed to include a CSX/Norfolk Southern grade separation, which was going to be the most expensive single project in North Carolina - but CSX never gave that the green light, and the money wound up getting diverted to Raleigh Union Station (among other things.)

Another question is whether they are going to reactivate the line through NCMF and Camp North End, or use the connector to the NCRR along Atando Avenue. (That's an odd street name, why does it have that name? The original name of the railroad from Charlotte to Statesville was the "Atlantic, Tennessee, and Ohio." AT&O, A T and O, ATandO, Atando... you get it!)

This is a separate matter from the grade separation, because either route could probably work, but reactivating the route through Camp North End etc would involve restoring the diamond with the CSX, which CSX might not like very much.

 

[RANYC]

7 minutes ago, orulz said:

Back on the topic of the Red Line, how are they going to do the connection from the O-line to Gateway? In the past, a big sticking point was the crossing with CSX near NCMF. The 2008 stimulus was supposed to include a CSX/Norfolk Southern grade separation, which was going to be the most expensive single project in North Carolina - but CSX never gave that the green light, and the money wound up getting diverted to Raleigh Union Station (among other things.)

Another question is whether they are going to reactivate the line through NCMF and Camp North End, or use the connector to the NCRR along Atando Avenue. (That's an odd street name, why does it have that name? The original name of the railroad from Charlotte to Statesville was the "Atlantic, Tennessee, and Ohio." AT&O, A T and O, ATandO, Atando... you get it!)

This is a separate matter from the grade separation, because either route could probably work, but reactivating the route through Camp North End etc would involve restoring the diamond with the CSX, which CSX might not like very much.

 

Camp north end has a lot of residential in the works and is about to open an apartment building.  I wonder if it’s a good move to have heavy rail running through the middle of the complex.  

[kermit]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:33 AM, orulz said:

Back on the topic of the Red Line, how are they going to do the connection from the O-line to Gateway? In the past, a big sticking point was the crossing with CSX near NCMF. The 2008 stimulus was supposed to include a CSX/Norfolk Southern grade separation, which was going to be the most expensive single project in North Carolina - but CSX never gave that the green light, and the money wound up getting diverted to Raleigh Union Station (among other things.)

Another question is whether they are going to reactivate the line through NCMF and Camp North End, or use the connector to the NCRR along Atando Avenue. (That's an odd street name, why does it have that name? The original name of the railroad from Charlotte to Statesville was the "Atlantic, Tennessee, and Ohio." AT&O, A T and O, ATandO, Atando... you get it!)

This is a separate matter from the grade separation, because either route could probably work, but reactivating the route through Camp North End etc would involve restoring the diamond with the CSX, which CSX might not like very much.

 

My memory of the death of the ARRA grade separation project is fuzzy but I had thought:

• The O-Line (NS) had dispatching control of the diamond. And CSX was the ‘secondary’ user so they are the RR that always must wait. It is possible I am misremembering and this was the case for the NS Main diamond, not the O-Line
• In turning down the funds I thought CSX was explicitly agreeing to them waiting much longer to cross NS at the diamond (this was around the time they were shutting down the Bostic-Spartanburg portion of this subdivision). It felt like CSX was letting Federal Regulators know that the Charlotte sub was becoming little more than a spur so CSX believed the need for the separation was diminished. Given that much of the grade separation cash was reallocated to projects on the CSX A-Line, they did get some benefit from the money.
• There was also some loose discussion around this time that CSX was planning to move their Thomasboro Intermodal yard to Monroe. But a) I might be misremembering this; and b) this still leaves Tanktown, National Gypsum and Marshall Steam Station on the wrong side of the diamond.
• Despite all of the above, I get the sense that CSX makes decent money from what remains of the Charlotte sub, and I don’t think they are eager to sell or downgrade or shortline. I also have a feeling that shifting CSX freight traffic on the diamond to nighttime hours only would piss off quite a few east Charlotte residents. 

The absence of trackage rights in this deal on the Atando wye and NS main North of the O-Line entry point suggests that CATS plans to use the direct route through Camp Northend and ADM. While a stop at CNE is certainly doable (trains will be moving slowly anyway), it will extend trip times. I am 100% certain that NS was actively protecting its ROW though CNE, so trains running through the middle of the complex should surprise no one.

Edited June 16 by kermit

[Professor]

If all goes well, do you think that the red line to Mooresville will begin limited service and make use of temporary shelters to enable use in the somewhat near future? Otherwise, I am sure that the full used date will be 10-15 years down the road.  

[jthomas]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

The absence of trackage rights in this deal on the Atando wye and NS main North of the O-Line entry point suggests that CATS plans to use the direct route through Camp Northend and ADM. While a stop at CNE is certainly doable (trains will be moving slowly anyway), it will extend trip times. CNE developers have certainly been planning for this possibility. I am 100% certain that NS was actively protecting its ROW though CNE, trains running through the middle of the complex should surprise no one.

There should absolutely be a stop at Camp North End. If the goal for the line is to be an all-day, bi-directional regional route rather than a peak-focused commuter shuttle, then there should be stops at near-city-center destinations. CNE is currently the most developed area, but one could imagine additional stops along Graham Street to I-85 helping to spur redevelopment. As for safety concerns, hopefully the rolling stock will be something like a Stadler FLIRT, which would not be much different size-wise than the current Lynx trains, which have no problem running through densely populated areas.

[kermit]

On 6/13/2024 at 1:29 PM, Professor said:

If all goes well, do you think that the red line to Mooresville will begin limited service and make use of temporary shelters to enable use in the somewhat near future? Otherwise, I am sure that the full used date will be 10-15 years down the road.  

Red Line service is, at best, a decade plus down the road.

Things that need to happen before any service can begin:

• Tracks (all of them) must be completely rebuilt (using the existing tracks would result in a 20mph top speed)
• Passing sidings / substantial portions of double track must be constructed
• Signals need to be completely rebuilt
• Stations need to be built
• A maintenance facility needs to be built (Nevin road? 485? Powerline easement around Damsen? Stumptown? -- it would make the most sense at the airport but...) The Summit st NCDOT yard is for intercity trains only and lacks the capacity to handle Red Line needs
• Rolling stock needs to be built
• Grade crossing at CSX  and connection to Gateway Station must be completely rebuilt
• A station at Gateway (along with a siding / platform off of the NS main) needs to be built
• None of the above can begin before Federal grants are received to fund 50% of this cost  (and local match money must be available, this will require a successful referendum following permission from the NCGA who enjoy holding urban areas hostage)
• Lots of other stuff that I haven't thought of needs to happen as well

While all of the track work could be knocked out in a year in Europe, we really don’t have the construction capacity and expertise for large amounts of this work anymore, It will be a miracle if the Red Line is running in 2035.

The good news is I believe the environmental impact studies have been completed, but they will need updating.

 

Edited June 16 by kermit

[RANYC]

16 minutes ago, kermit said:

Red Line service is a decade plus down the road.

Things that need to happen before any service can begin:

• Tracks (all of them) must be completely rebuilt (using the existing tracks would result in a 20mph top speed)
• Passing sidings / substantial portions of double track must be constructed
• Signals need to be completely rebuilt
• Stations need to be built
• A maintenance facility needs to be built (Nevin road?) (the Summit st NCDOT yard is for intercity trains only)
• Rolling stock needs to be built
• Grade crossing must be completely rebuilt
• A station at Gateway (along with a siding / platform off of the NS main) needs to be built
• Federal grants need to be applied for to fund 50% of this cost  (and local match money must be available, this will require a successful referendum following permission from the NCGA who enjoy holding urban areas hostage)
• Lots of other stuff that I haven't thought of needs to happen as well

If the Red Line is running in 2035 then it will be a miracle.

I believe the environmental impact studies have been completed, but they will need updating.

 

What a dream-killer

[kermit]

1 minute ago, RANYC said:

What a dream-killer

Call me Captain Buzzkill

[Third Strike]

If the Charlotte/Winston Salem intercity line happens alongside the Red Line, I wonder if we may get a transfer station built at Barber to the proposed Asheville/Salisbury line. As it stands, passengers wanting to travel to Asheville from Charlotte would have to take one of the existing intercity lines on the NCRR to Salisbury heading northeast. A transfer station at Barber could eliminate more than an hour on such a trip. If funding, politics and NIMBYs weren’t an issue, I would rebuild the old O-Line connection from Mooresville to Statesville. The most realistic approach after the Red Line is finished is a bus connection from Mt. Mourne to Statesville.