CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kayman]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Got it. How much of the tax increase is going to roads?

That's exact amount is still being discussed at the moment. It's a constantly moving target on the exact proportions of roadway, sidewalks,  greenway, and transit. The Silver Line, Silver Line rail trail are both included in the discussions, the Envision My Ride initiative implementation has been added to it.  

[southslider]

Even if roads are added, I question the NC Legislature allowing Mecklenburg to go higher in taxes.

[RANYC]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:33 AM, kayman said:

That's exact amount is still being discussed at the moment. It's a constantly moving target on the exact proportions of roadway, sidewalks,  greenway, and transit. The Silver Line, Silver Line rail trail are both included in the discussions, the Envision My Ride initiative implementation has been added to it.  

Is Red Line in the latest plan?

[kermit]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:49 PM, RANYC said:

Is Red Line in the latest plan?

[I have not looked at this plan]

The Red Line is always going to be in a weird purgatory. CATS will never say they don’t plan to build it, the line will always appear in long range plans out of political necessity, but CATS aint gonna budget billions for a gold plated commuter route either. At the frequencies that CATS has proposed the line is also unlikely to garner federal funding support. Regardless the plans or the funding situation NOTHING can move forward on the red line until NS has a change of heart.

Edited May 31, 2022 by kermit

[RANYC]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:33 AM, kayman said:

That's exact amount is still being discussed at the moment. It's a constantly moving target on the exact proportions of roadway, sidewalks,  greenway, and transit. The Silver Line, Silver Line rail trail are both included in the discussions, the Envision My Ride initiative implementation has been added to it.  

Would “roadway” projects mean a massive amount of “complete streets” re-design including protected bike lanes and traffic calming, or are we talking just widening and new roads?

Edited May 28, 2022 by RANYC

[kayman]

32 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Would “roadway” projects mean a massive amount of “complete streets” re-design including protected bike lanes and traffic calming, or are we talking just widening and new roads?

It's supposedly more complete streets-oriented projects with sidewalk network extensions.  I've heard would be the majority of the  projects that will be recommended by the CDOT-led strategic mobility plan. However, the Fred Alexander Boulevard extension,  Shopton Road Connector,  and realigning West Boulevard around the Airport will be in there. 

Also the XCLT trail completion along with the XCLT2 trail network supposedly has made the cut too.  However the XCLT2 trail is something that I am not 100% sure will be in the final list. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by kayman

[southslider]

XCLT2 as in Silver Line trail?

[JRCLT]

XCLT2 as in Silver Line trail?

Nope. It’s a greenway separate from that rail trail.

https://citycharlottencgov.azureedge.net/Charlotte_MOVES_Task_Force_Report_December_2020.pdf

[southslider]

^Mooresville to Charlotte trail looks a lot like a rail trail.

[kayman]

12 hours ago, southslider said:

^Mooresville to Charlotte trail looks a lot like a rail trail.

Parts of the alignment are former railway ROW, but the vast majority of the alignment is along metro area creeks.

[kermit]

Why is the nominal cost of parking cheaper than a Blue Line ticket?

Edited June 2, 2022 by kermit

[kayman]

18 minutes ago, kermit said:

Why is the cost of parking cheaper than a Blue Line ticket?

Well, you might want to reach out to your council members and ask that question to them...  If you want something to be answered and changed then question the elected representatives

[TCLT]

So apparently CATS is now considering interlining the silver line with the blue line through uptown and creating a separate alignment for the airport portion likely terminating at gateway station. This seems like the worst of both worlds. It's also truly hard for me to believe the short portion skirting around Fourth Ward costs $1 billion.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-06-13/cats-proposes-big-change-for-silver-line-route-through-uptown

Edited June 14, 2022 by TCLT
Added screenshot of the new alternatives.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, TCLT said:

So apparently CATS is now considering interlining the silver line with the blue line through uptown and creating a separate alignment for the airport portion likely terminating at gateway station. This seems like the worst of both worlds.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-06-13/cats-proposes-big-change-for-silver-line-route-through-uptown

1) Turning the Silver at Carson is an awful idea that would foul the Blue line even more than the through running. Not running the Silver into the core of Southend also surrenders substantial ridership.

2) Stubbing the airport line at gateway is either a) and excuse not to build it at all or b) a plan to keep marginalizing Westsiders and their access to transit by not connecting to the other two LRT lines. Running along the Gold route is not awful if they create dedicated ROW and a means to turn the line without massively reducing gold line frequencies (perhaps at on the Barnhardt property at Central ave).

One possible option is to run the Matthews line along the Gold Line route and terminate it and the Airport branch at Gateway on tracks that do not block the operation of the Gold. But that is just the current Silver line without the 4th Ward embrace.

IMO CATS really needs to stop thinking about saving money by reducing capacity (which is what the interlining does). Long term we will regret that.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by kermit

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

2) Stubbing the airport line at gateway is either a) and excuse not to build it at all or b) a plan to keep marginalizing Westsiders and their access to transit. Running along the Gold route is not awful if they create dedicated ROW and a means to turn the line (perhaps at on the Barnhardt property at Central ave) without massively reducing gold line frequencies.

And for all the complaints about airport transfers between the Blue 9th and Silver 11th street stations not being a signature experience, these interlining options make that LPA look like a world class proposal.

[JRCLT]

To the point of running it through the gold line it would probably raise the frequency at the spots it overlaps lol but the inconsistency of the gold line would also cause a logistical nightmare.

[15895]

The Silver line ending at Carson does miss a chink of SouthEnd where there is likely a lot more demand for the most rapid rail service. Not sure there is much demand for rapid service in uptown (obviously in comparison between SouthEnd and uptown) 

[kermit]

So this proposal got my mind wandering a bit. What if:

• Vehicle size limitations on all of the Gold Line are fixed (making it a full LRT capacity line)
• The airport line is run from Belmont / airport to the east end of the Gold Line (Eastland?)
• The Matthews line is run to the west end of the Gold (French st or I-85)
• The Gold Line vehicles continue to operate as well

This strategy would:

• Maintain through service on the Gold
• Increase frequency on the Gold to a useful level for circulator service
• Force proper operation of the Gold w dedicated ROW and signal priority(so Silver schedules could be maintained)
• Have train turns happen only at locations that would not clog the network
• Make airport transfers easier for most folks (the airport would be a two seat ride for blue line riders instead of 3)

The downsides:

• The reliance on the Goldline would limit capacity on the Silver. It would become very difficult to ramp up frequencies or run 3 car trains
• Would introduce schedule volatility on the Silver

Edited June 14, 2022 by kermit

[DavieNative]

15 hours ago, TCLT said:

So apparently CATS is now considering interlining the silver line with the blue line through uptown and creating a separate alignment for the airport portion likely terminating at gateway station. This seems like the worst of both worlds. It's also truly hard for me to believe the short portion skirting around Fourth Ward costs $1 billion.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-06-13/cats-proposes-big-change-for-silver-line-route-through-uptown

These new plans are all bad, interlining will cheapen the system and bring nothing new to uptown.  As much as the route around the city seems less useful than the original, it allows for more development and more stations for our system which means more ridership. These plans also ruin any gateway interaction which seems like a huge waste.

[TCLT]

49 minutes ago, kermit said:

So this proposal got my mind wandering a bit. What if:

• Vehicle size limitations on all of the Gold Line are fixed (making it a full LRT capacity line)
• The airport line is run from Belmont / airport to the east end of the Gold Line (Eastland?)
• The Matthews line is run to the west end of the Gold (French st or I-85)
• The Gold Line vehicles continue to operate as well

This strategy would:

• Maintain through service on the Gold
• Increase frequency on the Gold to a useful level for circulator service
• Force proper operation of the Gold w dedicated ROW and signal priority(so Silver schedules could be maintained)
• Have train turns happen only at locations that would not clog the network
• Make airport transfers easier for most folks (the airport would be a two seat ride for blue line riders instead of 3)

The downsides:

• The reliance on the Goldline would limit capacity on the Silver. It would become very difficult to ramp up frequencies or run 3 car trains
• Would introduce schedule volatility on the Silver

I realize you probably don't think this is realistic and just offered it up as a thought exercise, but the juxtaposition next to the new interlining proposals is hilarious to me. CATS is considering paring down the system by shaving off barely more than a mile of track and in the process eliminating connection Fourth Ward and to Gateway Station just to save a couple bucks and you're envisioning two even more expansive lines replacing the original proposal.

[Desert Power]

CATS desperately needs new leadership

[kermit]

2 hours ago, TCLT said:

I realize you probably don't think this is realistic and just offered it up as a thought exercise, but the juxtaposition next to the new interlining proposals is hilarious to me. CATS is considering paring down the system by shaving off barely more than a mile of track and in the process eliminating connection Fourth Ward and to Gateway Station just to save a couple bucks and you're envisioning two even more expansive lines replacing the original proposal.

That is fair. I didn't really think of the new lines as expansive (in terms of construction), just more intensively utilizing infrastructure we already have in order to create a more useful system.

Regardless of my harebrained ideas, planning for less transit (in terms of miles of track) rather than more is just hugely stupid in a city growing at the rate of Charlotte (IMO).

Edited June 14, 2022 by kermit

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, kermit said:

Maybe. I didn't really think the new lines were more expansive (in terms of construction), just more intensively utilizing infrastructure we already have in order to create a more useful system.

There'd need to be significant reconstruction on the Gold Line at the very least, right?  Station modifications and track realignment to accommodate the LRT vehicles and allow it its own ROW? Having the LRT (potentially 3 car trains) changing lanes constantly through uptown doesn't seem feasible. The Silver Line flyover over the Independence/277 interchange to get into uptown at Trade Street would be a much more intense structure than simply jumping 277 near Davidson St. Also, it seems like there'd be a lot more real estate impacted from routing the Silver Line into and out of uptown to merge with the Gold Line. The LPA uses mostly unbuilt or publicly owned land along 277 and the freight tracks. And wouldn't you also need more train cars to run the lines separately at planned frequencies? I can't see how it wouldn't be much more expensive than the current LPA.

[DMann]

I think the entire system needs to use the Blue Line through the center of the city.  Running it down Carson also puts the Riverside development right on the line.  

[TCLT]

Is there even a good way to turn the trains around at Carson station? There is a crossover between Carson and Bland but making that transition seems like it would potentially kill the Blue Line schedule.

This feels like either a really poorly thought-out panicked response to that consultant or a completely insincere way to say they took concerns to heart and gave it another look but their original LPA really is the best way.