CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[CLT>]

Monday's council meeting was one of the first where I saw the council members finally publicly start to connect the  dots that CATS is a rudderless and badly managed ship. Most of it was focused on the payment and routing  app development, but you could tell there is more there. Hopefully people continue to make their case to council members that there need  to be changes at the agency.

[Seaboard Fellow]

The airport stop has so much potential.  I hope the people mover extends just north of I-85 to support Airport District related growth such as hotels, conference centers, office, airport related parking etc.  It would also be nice if this light rail station allows an easy transfer to commuter rail in the future. 

[KJHburg]

Missing maps I did already post of the Silver Line 

[tozmervo]

One  thing became apparent as I updated the development map with the proposed alignment: especially west of Uptown, the alignment they picked has got to be the least expensive of the options. 

[southslider]

On 1/27/2021 at 12:29 PM, KJHburg said:

 

No connection between Silver and Gold Lines at Hawthorne

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, southslider said:

No connection between Silver and Gold Lines at Hawthorne

perhaps the single stupidest thing CATS has done (unless plans to extend the Gold Line to Pecan are already in the Big Bang bag)

[BarrenLucidity]

13 hours ago, southslider said:

No connection between Silver and Gold Lines at Hawthorne

These jokers should have played SimCity growing up. There's nothing worse than a lack of transfers. 

[CLT2014]

14 hours ago, southslider said:

No connection between Silver and Gold Lines at Hawthorne

This would cut out the most efficient Southeast Charlotte flows to / between the Presbyterian Medical Center, Elizabeth shopping, CPCC, and the Charlotte government district and courts. I'm surprised they missed the CPCC connection in particular (though they may think the Central stop is close enough with no transfer needed).

If they put the Pecan stop in between Hawthorne and Pecan with a path going to both streets though,  a connection would be possible.

Edited February 1, 2021 by CLT2014

[JRCLT]

This would cut out the most efficient Southeast Charlotte flows to / between the Presbyterian Medical Center, Elizabeth shopping, CPCC, and the Charlotte government district and courts. I'm surprised they missed the CPCC connection in particular (though they may think the Central stop is close enough with no transfer needed).
If they put the Pecan stop in between Hawthorne and Pecan with a path going to both streets though,  a connection would be possible.

If a rail trail is added or some way to get onto Hawthorne it would probably only be 5 - 9 min walk depending on the route.


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[tozmervo]

5 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

This would cut out the most efficient Southeast Charlotte flows to / between the Presbyterian Medical Center, Elizabeth shopping, CPCC, and the Charlotte government district and courts. I'm surprised they missed the CPCC connection in particular (though they may think the Central stop is close enough with no transfer needed).

If they put the Pecan stop in between Hawthorne and Pecan with a path going to both streets though,  a connection would be possible.

The Silver line Pecan stop makes the most sense for a stop that's readily accessible to the business core of P-M.  Moving it further west or east doesn't make sense to me. 

If Gold Phase 3 never happens, that puts a connection here at about a 1/4 mile walk, or 5 minutes. If Phase 3 happens and there's a stop at Pecan/Central, it's less than a 1000ft walk. Neither is perfect, but I know I've walked a hell of a lot further for "direct" connections before. 

While I do think more connections is better, taking a step back I do question how valuable this direct connection would be. If I live along Central, taking the gold line inbound to transfer to silver line to Matthews is already an inefficient prospect, and if I'm going further west you can just stay on the Gold Line until you get to Gateway Station. 

From the silver to gold line, I do see some appeal to riders from West Charlotte who need to go down Central Ave, but again that seems like a very narrow and specific ridership (at least in the forseeable future).  If I'm on the silver line going to CPCC, I'm getting off at Central Avenue and walking two blocks.

Again, I think it's a good connection to think about, but I wouldn't want to spend many millions of dollars solving existing geographic limitations to make it "perfect." 

[ertley]

I definitely think that if CATS works (well) with the Central Square developers, they can ameliorate the lack of direct connection and make riders' walks to connect either west at Sunnyside or north to (an eventual) a stop on Central, probably near Pecan, as painless as possible. If nothing else, the walk north to a streetcar stop can just follow the sidewalk along Pecan.

To connect at Sunnyside, if a good (i.e. broad) and attractive pedestrian bridge were to be constructed at the east end of Sunnyside, spanning the railroad tracks, it would offer a wonderful opportunity to 'reimagine' Sunnyside east of Hawthorne,  as a "shared street," with the last block redeveloped into nice pedestrian-friendly, or even exclusive, businesses, a nice little extension of [whatever Central Square is to be called].  Those two blocks of Sunnyside currently, vehicularly, only service, on one block, the parking garages of the two large apartment buildings, which both front Hawthorne, and then two small businesses on the other--that will likely (IMO) eventually sell out and relocate. 

Meanwhile, there's already a (private) path on the south side of the lower apartment building adjacent to Independence that could be co-opted by the city/CATS for pedestrian access to the Sunnyside station, which would be direct route from the Silver Line station; the advantage to this is that the railroad tracks running north/south will have to be bridged by the Silver Line tracks, so that crossing ($$) will already be made. I can't imagine any scenario whereby those five southernmost townhouses on Seegars Lane don't have to be demolished, and in that scenario there will be a decently broad amount of space immediately adjacent to the station for a nice pathway, which could/would then become part of the sidewalk of Helton Place, and then lead to the existing apartment building sidewalk.

But I still think a dedicated pedestrian bridge to Sunnyside and (eventually) modifying that street would be great. As I always say, our solutions to things should never be either/or (money notwithstanding).

[Hushpuppy321]

Been reading through the Charlotte Moves recommendations and it’s pretty comprehensive.  I have taken special interest in the Rail/BRT portion of the plan.  I hope we see more detail about Commuter Rail in the coming year or two.  Had been wondering about the 90+ Miles of Rapid Transit comment....

Edited February 3, 2021 by Hushpuppy321

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Been reading through the Charlotte Moves recommendations and it’s pretty comprehensive.  I have taken special interest in the Rail/BRT portion of the plan.  I hope we see more detail about Commuter Rail in the coming year or two.  Had been wondering about the 90+ Miles of Rapid Transit comment....

Sigh...

 I get that the Red Line is a political necessity for voters to support the measure in N Meck, but unless CATS has managed to negotiate some major breakthrough with NS over the past few months (and I kinda doubt they have) then the Red Line still ain't happening — suggesting that it will is just fiction. That is a half-billion (ish) project, what does CATS plan to do with that money when they pull the plug on the Red Line? I doubt there is another project which would appease N Meck residents.

Meanwhile Raleigh now has partial state and federal funding for commuter rail from Henderson to Sanford (to be fair its on a mostly abandoned rail line). This money just fell into their laps, I don’t believe the city requested it.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

Sigh...

 I get that the Red Line is a political necessity for voters to support the measure in N Meck, but unless CATS has managed to negotiate some major breakthrough with NS over the past few months (and I kinda doubt they have) then the Red Line still ain't happening — suggesting that it will is just fiction. That is a half-billion (ish) project, what does CATS plan to do with that money when they pull the plug on the Red Line? I doubt there is another project which would appease N Meck residents.

Meanwhile Raleigh now has partial state and federal funding for commuter rail from Henderson to Sanford (to be fair its on a mostly abandoned rail line). This money just fell into their laps, I don’t believe the city requested it.

 

I think Commuter Rail in Wake & Durham Counties are very feasible.   Rail to Vance and Lee Counties though I don’t think would draw many riders though.  I am totally jealous though because I think robust BRT & Commuter Rail is moving forward more smoothly out there than it will in the Charlotte Metro.

[jthomas]

This is a side note (and not picking on anyone!), but I think that we advocates should start pushing to use the term "regional rail" rather than "commuter rail." Commuter rail brings to mind a 9-5, peak-oriented service aimed at business people who commute from suburbs to a downtown office. This style of transit service was already a failure in most of the US pre-Covid (except in a handful of the biggest cities), has been decimated even more than other modes in the pandemic, and faces a more uncertain future due to potential long-term shifts in where and how people work. Regional rail, on the other hand, implies all-day, frequent, clockface service with the aim of facilitating anywhere-to-anywhere mobility. The S-bahn systems in German-speaking Europe are some of the best examples of this type of service. Regional rail of this type would be successful in all of NC's major metro regions.

[southslider]

On 2/1/2021 at 10:19 AM, JeanClt said:

If a rail trail is added or some way to get onto Hawthorne it would probably only be 5 - 9 min walk depending on the route.


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That's more than half the time riding a bus from Pecan/Central to CTC

[southslider]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:16 PM, tozmervo said:

If Gold Phase 3 never happens, that puts a connection here at about a 1/4 mile walk, or 5 minutes. If Phase 3 happens and there's a stop at Pecan/Central, it's less than a 1000ft walk. Neither is perfect, but I know I've walked a hell of a lot further for "direct" connections before. 

While I do think more connections is better, taking a step back I do question how valuable this direct connection would be. If I live along Central, taking the gold line inbound to transfer to silver line to Matthews is already an inefficient prospect, and if I'm going further west you can just stay on the Gold Line until you get to Gateway Station. 

From the silver to gold line, I do see some appeal to riders from West Charlotte who need to go down Central Ave, but again that seems like a very narrow and specific ridership (at least in the forseeable future).  If I'm on the silver line going to CPCC, I'm getting off at Central Avenue and walking two blocks.

Again, I think it's a good connection to think about, but I wouldn't want to spend many millions of dollars solving existing geographic limitations to make it "perfect." 

Only 1000 feet or a less than perfect connection is what already exists between Blue Line and Gold Line at CTC.

Even more critical than Hawthorne, too much distance is also planned for where Blue Line and Silver Line would cross in First Ward.

Walking every day, twice a day, between 9th and 11th St Stations is a terrible transfer.

[Nathan2]

Cats gave a presentation to CRTPO yesterday that showed that 30% design work would begin on Phase III of the gold line this year. So maybe we won't have to worry about much of a transfer. 

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, Nathan2 said:

Cats gave a presentation to CRTPO yesterday that showed that 30% design work would begin on Phase III of the gold line this year. So maybe we won't have to worry about much of a transfer. 

I would LOVE it if a design completion could result in Barnhardt allowing a pedestrian connection between Hawthorne & Clement in the meantime; strike up a deal to make that a reality. 

[southslider]

19 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

Cats gave a presentation to CRTPO yesterday that showed that 30% design work would begin on Phase III of the gold line this year. So maybe we won't have to worry about much of a transfer. 

Because like Red Line, once you start design, construction is guaranteed!

[BarrenLucidity]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:50 AM, Nathan2 said:

Cats gave a presentation to CRTPO yesterday that showed that 30% design work would begin on Phase III of the gold line this year. So maybe we won't have to worry about much of a transfer. 

I appreciate them leaving the Red Line, keeping my hopes up. 

[kermit]

22 hours ago, BarrenLucidity said:

I appreciate them leaving the Red Line, keeping my hopes up. 

FWIW (and it may not be worth much), the most recent MTC meeting minutes featured some discussion about the Red Line. Each time (twice IIRC)  the CATS rep replies to a ‘could the Red Line happen’ question the mention that they are negotiating with NS AND the NCRR. This is significant since a) the Red Line never travels on NCRR tracks, so why would CATS involve them unless... b) NS’s fundamental concerns about the Red Line are related to their continued access to the NCRR are being addressed this time around (NS leases the NCRR — if NS feels comfortable they can continue to access the NCRR at a good price then they will be more likely to give up the Red Line).

If true, this shows that CATS is serious about addressing NS’s concerns and is truly negotiating now rather than just assuming that NS will bend to their will. Admittedly, all this supposition is based on little substance, but the passenger rail stars are aligning in NC, Virginia and Washington. If this deal is ever going to happen now is the time.

Edited February 8, 2021 by kermit

[tozmervo]

This is your regular reminder that N-S has had a temporary buffer stop in the tracks at Catawba Avenue in Cornelius for >2 years now, meaning there has not been a train through there in that long. N-S is definitely holding the tracks hostage.

[davidclt]

CATS has posted an Online Open House for the Silver Line: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/38c41613178a4650b9a

Note that about 75% of the way through, there are links to upcoming online public meetings for the line running west to east (sections 1-6) with a meeting for each segment starting on February 16th and running through March 2nd.  I'm including the information below for those interested:

Focus Area 1: Wilkinson Boulevard (City of Belmont to I-485)

Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 5:30 p.m.

Join the live virtual public meeting here

To join via phone dial: +1 646 558 8656 

Webinar ID: 810 9897 2452

Focus Area 2: Wilkinson Boulevard (I-485 to West Morehead Street)

Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - 5:30 p.m.

Join the live virtual public meeting here

To join via phone dial: +1 312 626 6799 

Webinar ID: 865 9592 6261

Focus Area 3: Center City (West Morehead Street to Charlottetowne Avenue)

Thursday, February 18, 2021 - 5:30 p.m.

Join the live virtual public meeting here

To join via phone dial: +1 312 626 6799  

Webinar ID: 848 0787 1538

Focus Area 4: Independence Boulevard (Charlottetowne Avenue to Idlewild Road)

Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 5:30 p.m.

Join the live virtual public meeting here

To join via phone dial: +1 301 715 8592  

Webinar ID: 843 6215 9511

Focus Area 5: Independence Boulevard (Idlewild Road to just south of I-485 at CPCC Levine)

Thursday, February 25, 2021 - 5:30 p.m.

Join the live virtual public meeting here

To join via phone dial: +1 646 558 8656

Webinar ID: 849 4616 2021

Focus Area 6: Union County Extension

Tuesday, March 2, 2021 - 5:30 p.m.

Join the live virtual meeting here

To join via phone dial: +1 301 715 8592

Webinar ID: 847 2729 6111

Comments may be submitted before the meeting via email or phone. Individuals requiring special assistance to participate should contact CATS at least 7 days prior to the live meeting.

[kermit]

Part 1:

 

 

Part 2: