CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[DEnd]

11 hours ago, EllAyyDub said:

What this does tell me, however, is CATS is looking to utilize TIF as a funding mechanism. I am fine with a TIF included in the capital stack, but generally believe that ridership should be the primary concern.

I don't disagree with you, however the majority of riders will come from within a 1/4 mile radius of the stations.  TOD drives ridership, just as transit drives TOD.  You can't have TOD without viable transit, and you can't have viable transit without TOD.  

[CLT>]

On 9/18/2020 at 7:10 PM, kermit said:

The only route that I see as vaguely practical without any of the above is a spur off the Blue line running along Tyvola (or the powerline ROW (this was done in Dallas and (I believe) St. Louis). It would require a bunch of residential property purchases. Unfortunately this is a mediocre route which would probably miss most of The SP office district and Park Rd SC.

The plan from 1977 was to run rail elevated along Little Sugar Creeek then joining Fairview to SouthPark. Which actually would have picked up the Montford Park office Area. Would never happen now, but would be a different Charlotte if it had.

 

[Matthew.Brendan]

43 years ago. wow. Just imagine.

[Hushpuppy321]

I think the SilverLine Alignment Virtual meeting is today at 5:30.  CATS Website I guess. 

[LKN704]

On 9/22/2020 at 1:20 AM, CLT> said:

The plan from 1977 was to run rail elevated along Little Sugar Creeek then joining Fairview to SouthPark. Which actually would have picked up the Montford Park office Area. Would never happen now, but would be a different Charlotte if it had.

 

Wasn't there some kind of transit tunnel planned (from around the same time period) that would have tunneled under Myers Park?

It's a shame in some way that Charlotte didn't have the same population and growth in the 1970s as it does now as the city probably would have been blessed with the construction of at least one subway line, courtesy of the then generous funding from the Feds. 

I like how Uptown is labeled "CBD" on the map...very international. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by LKN704

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Wasn't there some kind of transit tunnel planned (from around the same time period) that would have tunneled under Myers Park?

It's a shame in some way that Charlotte didn't have the same population and growth in the 1970s as it does now as the city probably would have been blessed with the construction of at least one subway line, courtesy of the then generous funding from the Feds. 

I like how Uptown is labeled "CBD" on the map...very international. 

Perhaps, but TOD wasn't a convention in the 70s. Atlanta is only just recently starting to make MARTA stations into livable, TOD areas.

[ertley]

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but I actually think--if what would've transpired would've basically adhered to this conceptual plan--that the decades delay in mass transit implementation in Charlotte was a good thing. The ability to route the southern branch of the Blue Line along disused rail right of way was far, far better than running rail (if above ground) along Sugar Creek, both because the emerging greenway is obviously preferable, both environmentally and aesthetically, and those areas were already attractive, residentially, and didn't need development encouragement--and especially because TOD wasn't a widely accepted concept then. If the Silver Line is able to to do the same thing along its western leg that the Blue Line did in its south leg, in terms of creating tens of thousands of desirable residential units, it's a win-win, and this one particular early (tactical) loss ultimately became a huge strategic win, IMO.

I tend to be pessimistic personally but optimistic on the whole, so I don't know if it's a cause of this point of view, or merely affirmation. 

[tozmervo]

August 2020 stats vs 2019: Bus ridership down 51%, Lynx is down 75%,  Express routes down 95%. Total system is down 63%. Very slight improvements over previous reports (Lynx is worse, but there were several August disruptions due to convention center work).  The craziest thing to me is sales tax revenue, which is currently only 2% below budget for the year. 

[Hushpuppy321]

I listened to the SilverLine Virtual Open House meeting yesterday for Section 4 (East Charlotte) and then listened to a recording of Section 3 (Center City) and am very concerned.

Andy Moch (Proj. Manager) said that the SilverLine needs a Rail Connection to the Existing BlueLine corridor due to the fact thats where the North Brevard and South Blvd Maintenance facilities are located.  The proposed SilverLine will not/may not have its own Maintenance Facility and as such the most ‘logical’ is at the 11th Street Station.  Heart palpitations ..... We all need to let CATS know that a Grade Separated Intersection between these lines are absolutely critical to ensure that Transit remains ‘Rapid’

[LKN704]

I just left feedback for the Uptown alignment concerning the transfer station. 

The 9th and 11th Street stations are beginning to sound like the Interstate/Rose Quarter (Yellow) and Rose Quarter Transit (Blue, Red, Green) Stations on Portland's MAX system. You have to cross a busy intersection (no footbridge/walkway between the two stations) to transfer, and in between the two stations is this tangled spaghetti mess of non-revenue tracks connecting the Yellow line with the Blue, Red, and Green lines.

[CLT2014]

At what point does CATS need to secure or announce a funding plan for the Silver Line in order to meet a 2030 delivery? Just wondering if they'll be forced to try to get a tax increase passed during "tough times" assuming the public at large will think long term. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by CLT2014

[Hushpuppy321]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

At what point does CATS need to secure or announce a funding plan for the Silver Line in order to meet a 2030 delivery? Just wondering if they'll be forced to try to get a tax increase passed during "tough times" assuming the public at large will think long term. 

I think as long as they get a Tax Referendum and/or TIF Funding in place by 2024 then the line can reasonably be under construction by 2028 and open by the end of 2031.

[kermit]

Every project is different but here was the rough timeline from the BLE (mostly pulled from wikipedia so caveat emptor):

• March 2008: Preliminary engineering begins (open date was 10 years later) (Prelim engineering on Silver line began November 2019)
• December 2011: FTA issues record of decision (saying they are likely to fund their share of the line and CATS should progress with design and lining up funding)
• May 2012: State funding share is committed along with cooperation agreements from NS and NCRR. [local funding source was already identified for BLE but I suspect this is when local funding would be identified]
• July 2012: FTA gives permission to start final design (which produces the final cost estimates)
• October 2013: FTA signs FFGA -- indicating that all parties have agreed to their funding obligations.
• Construction begins: March 2014 (I believe)
• Open date: March 2018

So based on the BLE, all funding sources would need to be clear and certain roughly 6 years before opening. Construction on the BLE was about 4 years. The Silver Line will be more complicated and twice the length of the BLE.

 

[LKN704]

What is the current temperature amongst the general population in Charlotte currently in regards to an expanded sales tax for transit? Doesn't the NC GA still have the LRT funding cap in place?

[ertley]

16 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I listened to the SilverLine Virtual Open House meeting yesterday for Section 4 (East Charlotte) and then listened to a recording of Section 3 (Center City) and am very concerned.

Andy Moch (Proj. Manager) said that the SilverLine needs a Rail Connection to the Existing BlueLine corridor due to the fact thats where the North Brevard and South Blvd Maintenance facilities are located.  The proposed SilverLine will not/may not have its own Maintenance Facility and as such the most ‘logical’ is at the 11th Street Station.  Heart palpitations ..... We all need to let CATS know that a Grade Separated Intersection between these lines are absolutely critical to ensure that Transit remains ‘Rapid’

So, exactly my thinking--and my ears *perked* up when I heard that from Andy Mock, so... I started thinking. I'm not an engineer but I love poring over maps, and pretty quickly I came up with what looks like to me--again, not an engineer, though--a workable solution that both allows the station we all want, and a necessary transfer spur between lines. I sent an email outlining it to CATS. Here it is:

     "...I believe there is a solution to this problem, that allows what most everyone wants: an important (or 'signature') transfer station between the Silver and Blue lines for passengers that does not impede the speed or schedules of either line due to an at-same-grade track crossing. 

 

     "If the Silver Line is at ground level along 11th Street, and shifts north of 277 before its turn to the south, the light rail line will run adjacent to Alexander Park, which is what I believe is the solution: Route a spur (likely elevated) connecting the Silver Line and Blue Line through Alexander Park and onto the north side of the rail right of way on the north side of the park, which runs just south of 13th Street. Then de-commission 13th Street, which is not fully contiguous, and the spur connecting the Silver and Blue lines could run mostly at ground level along the 13th Street right of way, which leads directly to the Blue Line. 

 

     "13th Street is a fragmented street remnant currently, and the new development abutting it faces (and utilizes) other street frontage, so the removal of 13th would cause no serious neighborhood or development issues. Additionally, this allows the Silver line to run at ground level along 11th, which I (and most people seem to) believe is highly preferable to it either being elevated or semi-tunneled. A visible Silver Line is actually important, and in addition, because 277 is not an attractive urban feature, having a physical and visual barrier between it and the First and Fourth wards would be a good thing. Most importantly, having the Silver Line at ground elevation means the design for a transfer station would be simplified and allow a more intuitive and user-friendly experience.  

 

     "I realize that the elevated portion of this spur (so it can cross the heavy rail right of way) has cost--but so does every alternative--and semi-tunneling the Silver Line all along 11th will certainly create costs and complications that would be eliminated by this relatively simple solution. In terms of potential impacts to Alexander Park, it only hosts one playing field (the tennis courts across the creek wouldn't be affected in any way), and that field could be easily reconfigured or relocated, as the county/city owns numerous adjacent blocks in that area. 

 

     "Additionally...I've always believed that the city should connect 12th Street with Otts Street to the east, which would create a through street all the way from Graham to the west--and if Otts were extended one block to the east, on the northern edge of a lot owned by the city and used for maintenance vehicle parking--to Hawthorn at the east. If the county/city were reconfiguring Alexander Park anyway due to the light rail transfer spur, creating a connection from Otts to 12th at the same time would be less...difficult. This new connector street could be an important, transformational, neighborhood-defining avenue between the Central Avenue area and upper Tryon, allowing pedestrian, bicycle (and car) movement from the Gold Line at Hawthorn, feeding from exactly between Central Avenue and Barnhardt, to a block north of the Silver/Blue line transfer station--a distance of only a dozen blocks, but which seems worlds away now because of their lack of connectivity. It would make 12th more than just a feeder road along the north side of 277, so when TOD occurs in that area, 12th could be a 'signature' street, offering spectacular views from its properties across to Uptown."

 

     Those are my 22 cents worth. The engineers in the forum can deconstruct it if it's not feasible. 

[DMann]

Intriguing, any way you could put that on a map?

[ertley]

57 minutes ago, DMann said:

Intriguing, any way you could put that on a map?

Very crudely...best I can do right now (or maybe ever)! But if you look at Google Maps, 13th Street is totally an non-entity, with pavement actually missing in block or two. Literally, eliminating it will make no difference whatsoever to anyone.

[DMann]

I don’t bring it across 277.  Instead of a spur, I run it through Alexander park, past Optimist Hall and connect with the BLE.  Run it through the city, and cut off and connect with Morehead after closing the college Street ramp.  Most impacted streets will be 7,6,5th

[CLTranspo]

2 hours ago, ertley said:

Very crudely...best I can do right now (or maybe ever)! But if you look at Google Maps, 13th Street is totally an non-entity, with pavement actually missing in block or two. Literally, eliminating it will make no difference whatsoever to anyone.

Nice idea! The main issue I’m thinking of is whether the radius turning around that warehouse at 90 degrees would be too tight (unless of course they tore it down), and whether they’d have to remove a lot of parking on the north side of optimist hall merge onto the blue line. However, since this spur would only be for out of service trains, the curve could be possibly be managed since very slow speeds wouldn’t be an issue as far as impacting service times. 

[kermit]

in the learning from other places category: Indianapolis is very unhappy with the battery powered buses it purchased for their Red Line BRT.  Their contracted-spec’d range was 275 miles per day but it appears actual range is as few as 152 miles. Range issues appear in both hot and cold weather. [CATS is currently evaluating electric buses for purchase]

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/news/21155981/in-1-year-in-heres-how-indygos-ceo-grades-the-red-line-and-whats-coming-next

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

From the most recent MTC meeting agenda: https://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/boards/MTC Agenda Package/MTC-Agenda-Package-200918.pdf

I can't believe CATS has been dragging their feet / incompetent that they have delayed real time vehicle tracking for more than 3 years (I can't remember when they started saying it was going to be rolled out in the next '6 months'). I guess their mobile payment option is an acknowledgement that the current online ticketing app is BS. I would have also though that tap to pay would need to be working in time for the Gold Line start, but what do I know). It is annoying that not all bus drivers know about the UNCC transit pass being keyed to ID card, tap to pay would fix that problem of management.

 

[LKN704]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

I would have also though that tap to pay would need to be working in time for the Gold Line start, but what do I know

Throw back to when I emailed someone at CATS back in 2014 or 2015 and they said that a contactless fare system would be launched (implantation of TVMs, readers, card infrastructure) no later than the BLE opening date. 

[kermit]

Sustain Charlotte says that the Central ave bus lanes are already taking heat. I think they have been there for less than two weeks (but its hard to tell since time has no meaning anymore)

[Spartan]

The outbound bus lane opened on 9/29, inbound opens this week on 10/8.

 

https://charlottenc.gov/Transportation/Programs/Pages/BusLane.aspx?fbclid=IwAR0qN5-ExBaAnRp-Nc6D0c0-BfbgXhTYAEAblotDHwqQcYUtij4-mTuo6EU

 

 

[kermit]

I fear CATS may may be a victim of bad timing over the next year. If the election plays out like the polls suggest (a big if), it sounds increasingly likely there will be a big infrastructure stimulus this winter (many say w a focus on climate change). I fear that the Silver Line won’t be far enough along in design and engineering to make it eligible for an FFGA (nor are the necessary local funding plans in place for that). There really aren’t any other transit projects that are ready to go. The three car platform expansion on the blue line seems doubly stupid in the age of COVID (again, increased frequency would be way better). The Publix infill station may see some love.  I guess CATS could potentially order more vehicles and increase frequency on the Blue and Gold routes (if operations funds were part of the stimulus).

I dunno, it seems like Charlotte, as a growing city in a swing state, is very well positioned to get a chunk of cash, but we don’t have any real plans to leverage at the moment.  The last infrastructure stimulus was justifiably criticized for its lack of truly 'shovel ready' projects.

A well crafted 2040 plan would have been really useful.

Cross Charlotte trail? Aggressive bike infrastructure expansion? Remove 277?  

Edited October 7, 2020 by kermit