Unified Development Ordinance

[Guest]

What the heck was the point of the UDO then. Will it take another four years for upzonings? 

 

I moved out of Charlotte and am not sure if I will ever build a fourplex in a historic streetcar neighborhood. I can deal with neighborhood opposition to an extent and respect their concerns.

I absolutely despise the city council and government and have no tolerance to go through months of planning to build missing middle.

Meanwhile... the record breaking price of a home in the neighborhood Belmont is 1.5 million smackeroonies. 8,000 dollar mortgage. Allowed by right.

Edited May 24, 2022 by mazman34340
Clarification

[RANYC]

how does your new place of residence allow for more missing middle?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

how does your new place of residence allow for more missing middle?

I'm out of real estate. I'm an EMT now.

The whole industry is too toxic and not good for me. At this point, it's like 75% insane possibly bubble market and 25% garbage regulations. So I could go back in if the market shifts but probably not Charlotte.

My dark fear is if the market corrects, it would be the perfect time to start building missing middle. That's exactly what is needed to start letting the market recover and build housing of a decent density and price points that are more affordable. Charlotte slammed the door shut on the possibility.  Even if the market severely corrects, I would at a minimum start building four-plexes. It's way past the point to build duplexes in many neighborhoods.

[Guest]

Here's several poison pills in the zoning code that will likely kill triplex projects in Neighborhood 1 Zones.

Most townhouses at this point will require two to three stories of height to work with and of course there are a fair number of ranch neighborhoods that have primarily one story homes.

Combine this with rear-setbacks and front set-backs and developers will be squeezed for square footage.

Notice how this requirement is not present for other single family homes like McMansions. Class warfare in zoning code.

The Neighborhood Character Overlay will be a disaster...

[KJHburg]

the devil is in the details....

https://ui.charlotte.edu/story/charlotte-sorts-through-development-ordinance-changes

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

the devil is in the details....

https://ui.charlotte.edu/story/charlotte-sorts-through-development-ordinance-changes

Not saying it will happen overnight, but just as Fed tightening should eventually temper inflation, tightening the conditions that feed the extreme levels of auto-dependence in Charlotte will also lead to creative alternatives for getting around.  People adapt.  Just as Fed tightening may cause some pain, however, so too may tightening up the ability to drive and park everywhere.  But in the long-run, this gets us more use out of land, reduces the inherent parking tax imposed on all sorts of developments here in Charlotte, and makes us a more sustainable place for growth.

I recently purchased 3 scooters for my place for myself and my guests.  Also own a bicycle.  Yes, I own a car as well, but I'm really enjoying my micro-mobility for getting everywhere I want to be in and around center city.  Scooter is for work commute to uptown.  I'd take the streetcar, but wish it ran more frequently.

[Guest]

The 12' height limit has been raised to 20'. Still a few feet too short but one of the poison pills for missing middle has been removed. I'd watch out though if another poison pill was added like parking minimums creeped back up for example.

EDIT: Still looking at parking minimums. The geniuses at the planning department struck down 12 insane pages of parking micromanagement though was that consolidated to higher parking minimums? Gotta check.

Edited June 3, 2022 by mazman34340

[RANYC]

Can someone explain to me why the UDO only requires mitigation for trees that are 30" in diameter at breast height?  That seems quite lax to me.  30" is a gargantuan tree.  I mean, doesn't it take an oak 50 years to get to 18" in diameter?  We seem to be setting the bar massively high for keeping these gems of our landscape.  And San Antonio requires $100 per inch in mitigation.  Given the big pools of money in development here, $1500 seems like barely a blip for something that's been growing out of the ground for generations.

Edited June 4, 2022 by RANYC

[kermit]

Raleigh is voting on allowing neighborhood retail next week. (Much to my disappointment this change does not permit corner stores (they are “still working in that”) this is just for personal services sorts of businesses).

I would not have been nearly as disappointed with our UDO if we had passed it 4 years ago. This slow-roll to an increasingly unsatisfying code is just killing me.

 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Raleigh is voting on allowing neighborhood retail next week. (Much to my disappointment this change does not permit corner stores (they are “still working in that”) this is just for personal services sorts of businesses).

I would not have been nearly as disappointed with our UDO if we had passed it 4 years ago. This slow-roll to an increasingly unsatisfying code is just killing me.

 

Will these businesses in neighborhoods have a parking requirement?  Will you see front yards paved over for street-fronting parking lots right in the neighborhood?  I must admit, I love the prospect of neighborhood retail, but only if it meets a certain aesthetic standard...the aesthetic I might see in Munich or Berlin or Paris or Amsterdam, where the majority of mobility takes place without a car.  In Charlotte where we're obsessed with cars, I feel dense retail intermixing in neighborhoods would drive a surge in surface lots, trees less than 30 freaking inches in diameter would get mowed down to accommodate the surface lots, and it would lead to an all-around aesthetic cluster-f!!!.

Edited June 4, 2022 by RANYC

[kermit]

On 6/4/2022 at 5:55 PM, RANYC said:

Will these businesses in neighborhoods have a parking requirement?  Will you see front yards paved over for street-fronting parking lots right in the neighborhood?  I must admit, I love the prospect of neighborhood retail, but only if it meets a certain aesthetic standard...the aesthetic I might see in Munich or Berlin or Paris or Amsterdam, where the majority of mobility takes place without a car.  In Charlotte where we're obsessed with cars, I feel dense retail intermixing in neighborhoods would drive a surge in surface lots, trees less than 30 freaking inches in diameter would get mowed down to accommodate the surface lots, and it would lead to an all-around aesthetic cluster-f!!!.

No the proposal says that no additional vehicular or bicycle parking is required. The types of business allowed are pretty restrictive (“no more than 5 customers allowed, no outdoor dining or signage etc”) this initial change appears to regulate the scale / design of a business as if it were an ADU and or a live work unit in an established residential area.  

seems like this is a first step to bigger potential changes.

https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR22/TC-12-21.pdf

Edited June 6, 2022 by kermit

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Will these businesses in neighborhoods have a parking requirement?  Will you see front yards paved over for street-fronting parking lots right in the neighborhood?  I must admit, I love the prospect of neighborhood retail, but only if it meets a certain aesthetic standard...the aesthetic I might see in Munich or Berlin or Paris or Amsterdam, where the majority of mobility takes place without a car.  In Charlotte where we're obsessed with cars, I feel dense retail intermixing in neighborhoods would drive a surge in surface lots, trees less than 30 freaking inches in diameter would get mowed down to accommodate the surface lots, and it would lead to an all-around aesthetic cluster-f!!!.

I love trees too but I'm gonna go ahead and assume that sucker is in the middle of the lot I'm trying to build in. I try to buy the smallest lot possible so every square foot is critical. That tree is dead.

Since land is so expensive, I'm going to try to maximize square footage to overcome their costs (which is why a land price correction would be welcome).

If the tree is on the corner or edge of a lot I have to make a hard choice to try to save it. During the entire construction process, tree needs to be marked off and bundled. Yet if an excavator or something smacks the tree, it could easily get killed and all that effort is wasted. Limbs need to be cut down as well for multi-story projects.

It's context. In an urban environment with small lots, I don't give a rat's ass about a tree.

Street trees are a different animal but the regulations make me wary. I love street trees but how much space will the arborist require and space for the canopy?

That can kill missing middle but I would welcome a street tree requirement. I've seen in NY, NY 30' trees with like 10' sidewalks. They don't need outrageous amounts of space.

If mister arborist requires 30' of open space on the ground, I could get screwed.

Also. Kill parking minimums. Full stop kill em'.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, mazman34340 said:

I love trees too but I'm gonna go ahead and assume that sucker is in the middle of the lot I'm trying to build in. I try to buy the smallest lot possible so every square foot is critical. That tree is dead.

Since land is so expensive, I'm going to try to maximize square footage to overcome their costs (which is why a land price correction would be welcome).

If the tree is on the corner or edge of a lot I have to make a hard choice to try to save it. During the entire construction process, tree needs to be marked off and bundled. Yet if an excavator or something smacks the tree, it could easily get killed and all that effort is wasted. Limbs need to be cut down as well for multi-story projects.

It's context. In an urban environment with small lots, I don't give a rat's ass about a tree.

Street trees are a different animal but the regulations make me wary. I love street trees but how much space will the arborist require and space for the canopy?

That can kill missing middle but I would welcome a street tree requirement. I've seen in NY, NY 30' trees with like 10' sidewalks. They don't need outrageous amounts of space.

If mister arborist requires 30' of open space on the ground, I could get screwed.

Also. Kill parking minimums. Full stop kill em'.

Well, we disagree.  I continue to advocate for more restrictive preservation and mitigation requirements.

[urbanlover568]

Really don't understand why Bamboo isn't encouraged in the states here. It's weird going to Asia and seeing it as a lifesource for building, clothing, and eating in those communities but people have a phobia of it here. Sustainability is critical right now. There are non-invasive Bamboos' that can grow here and produce 35% more oxygen than trees.  

[southslider]

On 6/4/2022 at 7:45 PM, RANYC said:

Well, we disagree.  I continue to advocate for more restrictive preservation and mitigation requirements.

For teardowns of a single-family home to build a mini-mansion, I couldn't agree more with preserving even smaller trees.   But for true urban infill that helps build the ten-minute neighborhood, just add some street trees.

[RANYC]

Anyone looking through the 2nd draft of this thing?  They've eliminated the "Facade Modulation" language found in a many of the zoning district articles.  I'm new to facade modulation.  Anyone have a researched or informed view on this?

[KJHburg]

This is interesting this author advocates removing all zoning like Houston.

https://ui.charlotte.edu/story/arbitrary-lines-and-case-killing-zoning

As a frequent visitor to Houston it actually does not look that much different than any other city.  Sure there is the oddity like a high rise that casts shadows on neighboring SF homes or a business in the middle of a neighborhood.  But many neighborhoods and almost every new development is master planned and deed restricted.  In fact Houston has some of the highest percentage of new homes sales in master planned communities than any major US city.   The Woodlands, Sugar Land, First Colony, Bridgeland etc etc.  River Oaks which is the old money intown neighborhood has deed restrictions and at except at the edges looks like Eastover or Myers Park but even bigger homes.  Downtown Houston you can build anything anywhere you want yet they have more historic high rises than Charlotte does and most recently renovated into hotels or apartments.  It is truly the highest and best use of the land wins out.  In town neighborhood like the Heights look like NoDa with mixtures of SF house and apartment complexes side by side.  Lots of innovative townhome developments in the East End too.  But there are a few quirks but for the most part it looks like any major Sunbelt city really.  Not advocating this for Charlotte but it was an interesting summary of that book.  

Edited July 1, 2022 by KJHburg

[RANYC]

9 hours ago, KJHburg said:

This is interesting this author advocates removing all zoning like Houston.

https://ui.charlotte.edu/story/arbitrary-lines-and-case-killing-zoning

As a frequent visitor to Houston it actually does not look that much different than any other city.  Sure there is the oddity like a high rise that casts shadows on neighboring SF homes or a business in the middle of a neighborhood.  But many neighborhoods and almost every new development is master planned and deed restricted.  In fact Houston has some of the highest percentage of new homes sales in master planned communities than any major US city.   The Woodlands, Sugar Land, First Colony, Bridgeland etc etc.  River Oaks which is the old money intown neighborhood has deed restrictions and at except at the edges looks like Eastover or Myers Park but even bigger homes.  Downtown Houston you can build anything anywhere you want yet they have more historic high rises than Charlotte does and most recently renovated into hotels or apartments.  It is truly the highest and best use of the land wins out.  In town neighborhood like the Heights look like NoDa with mixtures of SF house and apartment complexes side by side.  Lots of innovative townhome developments in the East End too.  But there are a few quirks but for the most part it looks like any major Sunbelt city really.  Not advocating this for Charlotte but it was an interesting summary of that book.  

Even though it has no zoning, does Houston have design standards?  

[KJHburg]

30 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Even though it has no zoning, does Houston have design standards?  

Yes I think they do.  

[kermit]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Even though it has no zoning, does Houston have design standards?  

They do have design standards along with parking minimums in nearly all of the city (they recently removed parking mins in portions of Downtown East and Midtown). 

Here is a good discussion of Houston development standards. While euclidian landuse is not regulated there, they still manage to regulate nearly every other part of the development process. In some cases regulation is on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis (e.g. neighborhoods can petition for larger minimum lot sizes).

https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/2020/01/09/no-zoning-in-Houston-there-are-workarounds

Edited July 1, 2022 by kermit

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Yes I think they do.  

I wonder if the lack of zoning produces an inordinate amount of sprawling, mass-produced housing communities.  In other words, because of no zoning, as a lone home-seeker partnering with a contractor to build the home of my dreams on a single-use lot I find, I'm fearful that a warehouse or body shop or worse might locate next door, and instead opt for the safety of deed-restricted, large-scale communities insulated from incompatible uses.  I last visited Houston in 2003 - thought the people were kind - hated the look of much of the city and the way it was laid out - found no reason to return.  I do know it's grown like crazy, has tons of diversity, and appears to have maintained housing affordability despite tons of growth and demand, so I'm sure it has lessons to offer.

Edited July 1, 2022 by RANYC

[RANYC]

Does anyone know if the UDO provisions for car-free housing such as what’s being built in Optimist Park and in Seversville?  Are those allowable by right, or will they need special rezonings or approvals going forward?  We should be getting out of the way of these projects and perhaps even expediting or incentivizing them!

[nyxmike]

I don't know if this part of the UDO but... why does the city/developers build sidewalks without curbs? I've noticed there's inconsistent use of curbs and I was never clear on why some developers build them and others don't, or when CDOT decides to add sidewalks they sometimes build curbs and other times they don't. I would think curbs add a sense of safety. 

[tozmervo]

11 minutes ago, nyxmike said:

I don't know if this part of the UDO but... why does the city/developers build sidewalks without curbs? I've noticed there's inconsistent use of curbs and I was never clear on why some developers build them and others don't, or when CDOT decides to add sidewalks they sometimes build curbs and other times they don't. I would think curbs add a sense of safety. 

Where are you seeing sidewalks without curbs? 

[nyxmike]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

Where are you seeing sidewalks without curbs? 

All across the city, mostly in more suburban locations... there's lots of instances where one side has them and the other side doesn't, or there's no curb at all on either side. Just curious why it's so inconsistent. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by nyxmike