Learning from Other Places

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Obviously the negative side of China's policy is for the people relocated that have to start over.

If that is the only problem you see with a gov't being able to force you to move, then there are bigger issues at play here.

[CLT2014]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

If that is the only problem you see with a gov't being able to force you to move, then there are bigger issues at play here.

Haha, good point. I wouldn't want to live in China AT ALL. The reason they build rail so efficiently is their government can do as they please much easier than our government. 

[asthasr]

That's somewhat true, but even compared to europe our efficiency is terrible. Not sure if it's been posted in this thread yet, but this is a good article; https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

[elrodvt]

16 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

China's system is incredible. One major advantage for train construction (not so much locals) is land is ultimately owned by the state. While California was bogged down in thousands of negotiations and law suits over land acquisition for the rail right of way, China would be able to quickly dismiss complaints and start building. If your house is in the way, the government relocates you. In California, if you live even within a mile of the rail you could sue over environmental concerns and squirrels not being able to get from one side to the other.

Obviously the negative side of China's policy is for the people relocated that have to start over.

I agree with all this. However, I'm sure there was tremendous graft involved. Does that mean that rail is impossible in a democracy? I think updates to eminate domain law can make us both competitive and fair. Unlikely given our current corrupt Congress though.

[asthasr]

I thought I'd post something over here about what I think makes Plazas work. Of course there are a lot of more technical articles and even books on this subject--even a documentary, which I believe was posted earlier in this thread--but fundamentally I believe there are two primary ingredients for a good plaza: innate beauty and functionality. The most beautiful plazas in the world can stand on their own as attractions. Think of the Plaza Mayor in Salamanca:

or the Piazza Navona in Rome:

Of course these places are successful. People would be attracted to them purely because of their inherent beauty. There are, however, less inherently beautiful places that I also consider successful plazas. One is the relatively new Nguyễn Huệ walking street in Ho Chi Minh City:

another is the even more pedestrian (ha!) plaza in front of Central World in Bangkok (pictured here with a festival in progress and then without):

These are not particularly "beautiful" inherently. They have fountains and other amenities, but they're not destinations. Still, they provide functionality and they serve as places that people want to be and that can be used for fun events and festivals. The keys are that they're visually and physically separated from cars driving around; they're big enough to feel like a "place" in themselves, but small enough to feel distinct and enclosed. 

In Charlotte, for whatever reason, all of our "Plazas" seem to be rump space bumping up against a road. They're not insulated from traffic, they don't feel like places on their own, they don't have enough inherent beauty to attract people to them, and they don't offer enough space to have real events centered around them. This really feels like something that major developers are going to need to manage and coordinate between themselves; someone could fill a huge empty niche in our cityscape.

[kermit]

10 minutes ago, asthasr said:

In Charlotte, for whatever reason, all of our "Plazas" seem to be rump space bumping up against a road. They're not insulated from traffic, they don't feel like places on their own, they don't have enough inherent beauty to attract people to them, and they don't offer enough space to have real events centered around them. This really feels like something that major developers are going to need to manage and coordinate between themselves; someone could fill a huge empty niche in our cityscape.

Agree completely. Plazas are something we (as a nation) desperately need, but when they get built in the US they feel more hostile than welcoming. Americas strange relationship with public space in the 70s and 80s certainly made the situation worse. Suburbanization allowed the middle class to gravitate to the psuedo public-space of malls so cities felt little political pressure to build or maintain any large public gathering places.

The Green comes the closest to having a legitimate Plaza feel for me in Charlotte. Unfortunately, it always feels a bit unwelcoming since the private business users on either side feel kinda like they would prefer not to have the green there (including the church side). IIRC it is actually privately owned space so when the revolution comes there will be security guards trying to shoo us off of it.

^ The problem of using private space as a substitute for public space

[asthasr]

I found a good, short article on the subject: "9 Elements of Successful Small Parks and Plazas." There's a quote in there that I think sums up the issue: "Places thrive when users have a range of reasons to be there." That's something that I think Charlotte really struggles with in its open space. Recently I served on a jury.  There's a lovely plaza in front of the government building and, for the entire week that I was on the jury, I walked through it every day. The shame of it is that if there were other office buildings, lunch spots, and so on around that plaza, it'd likely do very well, but despite having a nice environment and even some food trucks for the office workers and the like, it was dead. You'd see five or six people in the entire space, half of them wearing the "Don't talk to me!" JUROR badges, and the other half harried-looking lawyers walking quickly from one office to another.

[KJHburg]

Just as Charlotte tore down Cityfair many years and Hearst Plaza replaced it Jacksonville Florida is tearing down their Jacksonville Landing riverfront festival marketplace.  It has suffered with high vacancies for years.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/02/20/city-jax-landing-reach-agreement-to-end-lawsuits.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiT1RsbVpqYzROV1EzTVRKayIsInQiOiJMTkd5WEx0MVl5dk1KWXdwSGpacE9MM3RyQmVORUJWeHdzb0pZSk5CUERXZ0QrM2pZbWpNVWhKOWhNMnoxQ3hQdHFqbHpCTUt0a2VWUnNySzBvMGd5SWFNSmZlb3d1ZVY0TUxUT2htSVYyOUNoVGpVOVwvejRBSXhDYnh0QkNMYkYifQ%3D%3D

Downtown retail is tough anywhere.  

[Bikeguy]

Thought I'd place this here for those of you who might find some free time in NYC and would enjoy a very pleasant Old Fashioned in Manhattan.  An iconic third place in Phillip Johnson's Seagram Buillding, The Grill showcases all that is good about a well designed cocktail in the late afternoon.  You won't regret it. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Bikeguy

[asthasr]

Here's a lovely little small-footprint infill building in Philadelphia.

It has a project page on ArchDaily and a more narrative description on TreeHugger. The location is in Brewerytown, which is along the western edge of North Philly, the current frontier of gentrification, adjacent to the Fairmount/Art Museum neighborhood.

I don't know the exact location of this project, but a representative street view shows just how narrow some of these plots are and how badly the area needs revitalization. Of course, Charlotte doesn't have much of this type of development (what we have, we've torn down), but I must say that I find the project really impressive for the US. It's very much a modern Asian style of construction and treatment of space.

One thing that I'm skeptical about is the fire safety, unfortunately. I don't believe that wall-to-wall lumber and cladding houses like this are a good idea. Philadelphia's row houses are historically concrete and masonry, with pretty strong individual walls between them. The same is true in many other places that build narrow-footprint "mini-towers" like this. It's hard to see how you'd achieve genuine fire safety in a neighborhood constructed of fifty copies of this tower.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Lived in Fairmont/Philly 19 years ago. Used to walk by the Art Musem (aka “Rocky steps”) on my way to work in Center City approx 2 miles. Loved it. Was up there recently to catch some music at the excellent World Cafe venue. Well worth a visit to see America’s first capital. 

[KJHburg]

Houston.  The very first word ever spoke on the moon.   Houston.  What can Charlotte learn from this city and metro of 6.5 million people with no zoning?  Well quite a bit.

1. No zoning.  While the city of Houston has rejected zoning over the years the city does not look that different from any other city.  Sure there is a occasional high rise backing up to a single family home and signs can be out of control  However, what most people don't realize is that most of the city is platted out in large developments that are "privately zoned".  Houston has more planned communities than probably any big city in the country.  Also they control land use with deed restrictions to keep areas residential or business for long time.    Because of the lack zoning they do a lot of single family homes very close together like a detached townhome and in town they are turning former industrial areas into residential areas without worrying about rezonings.  (of course there are building codes but just no zoning) 

2.  Parks they have great parks.  A fantastic pedestrian bridge over Buffalo Bayou with skyline views.  Charlotte needs this over Sugar Creek and 74/277 a signature bridge  

3. Houston doesn't have to put Texas behind it.   However this took years and literally a space program to accomplish it.  

4.  Museums and the arts.  Every major museum in town (and they have a lot and they are huge) has a free afternoon or day each week.  Our museums should do something like that to serve everyone.  Get an underwriter like they do here.  

5.  Houston Metro rail system has about 22 miles of lines opened now but did you know it is the 2nd most heavily used rail system per mile in the country?  They have HOV lanes, tolled express lanes, 2 completed beltways and a 3rd 170 mile long beltway under construction (the Grand Parkway 99) They have huge park and ride lots in the suburbs that have direct connections to the HOV lanes for buses to travel. 

6. High rises galore.  In total Houston has 37 buildings over 500 feet with another one just started now the 46 story Texas Tower. A 901 foot high 64 story building in their Galleria Uptown area sort like SouthPark by on steroids.  Plus 29 miles away from downtown in The Woodlands there are 2 30 story buildings each over 400 feet.  In reality they have at least 3 skylines downtown, uptown Galleria, and the Texas Medical Center.  (The Woodlands by the way is master planned community of 100,000 people!) 

Houston has the biggest Rodeo and livestock show on earth, is the energy capital of the world (every major oil and gas company on the planet has an office here from Sinopec to the Saudis to Respol everyone) and the largest Medical center on the face of the earth at the Texas Medical Center.  It took a while for Houston to rise to national and international prominence but it was not always this way.  

What Charlotte can teach Houston?  to have some tree requirements to plant some trees especially downtown some shade in this heat is needed. Continue building out your rail for Charlotte a city fraction of the size has about as much.  Reign in some of the signage (though in any planned development you dont see any or they are low to the ground) 

But Houston which calls itself on banners I noticed "the culinary and cultural capital of the South"   Well I did not really think of H Town in the south but maybe they are. 

16 photos ahead and believe me I took a lot more for more look at Houston UP Photo of the Day thread for it is rarely used so I dumped tons of photos there LOL.   

1. Williams Tower in Uptown Galleria area 64 stories  2. flag inside Galleria 3.  downtown from Galleria area 4.5.  Rosemont pedestrian bridge 6. 7. skyline 8. Lee and Joe Jamil Skatepark

9. Metrorail sometimes rides on the street along with cars mainly in downtown 10. SF homes very close together 11. Metrorail  12. Metrorail in the middle of Main St 13. several historical buildings all relocated to Sam Houston Park in the heart of downtown 14. despite their new and very tall skyline great buildings like this old Rice Hotel have been preserved (now apartments) 15. green glass building is the 71 story Wells Fargo Plaza tallest Wells named building in US  16. 31 story building over 400 feet in The Woodlands 29 miles north of downtown. 

 

[KJHburg]

One more thing about Houston and I am not advocating Charlotte drop all zoning but Houston because of the lack of it causes developers to build things they might not do otherwise innovate.

Couple more of Houston Metro and how it runs in the middle of Main St.  south of downtown. This stretch of the city between downtown and TX Medical Center is growing like Southend with new apartments and so forth. 

and last photo I saw along a greenway and major bike path.  Do we have bike air stations around Charlotte I don't know if we don't this is a great idea. 

 

[Bikeguy]

"and last photo I saw along a greenway and major bike path.  Do we have bike air stations around Charlotte I don't know if we don't this is a great idea. "  

Trips for Kids placed eight of these in Charlotte... Smelly Cat, Urban Ministries, Goodwill industries, and the other five on the LSC Greenway behind Park Road Shopping Center, McMullian Creek, McAlpine Creek, and Mallard Creek.  https://www.dero.com/product/fixit/

Edited March 9, 2019 by Bikeguy

[KJHburg]

23 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

"and last photo I saw along a greenway and major bike path.  Do we have bike air stations around Charlotte I don't know if we don't this is a great idea. "  

Trips for Kids placed eight of these in Charlotte... Smelly Cat, Urban Ministries, Goodwill industries, and the other five on the LSC Greenway behind Park Road Shopping Center, McMullian Creek, McAlpine Creek, and Mallard Creek.  https://www.dero.com/product/fixit/

 

Great I did not know that or have ever noticed them.  

[Matthew.Brendan]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/03/08/closing-central-madrid-to-cars-resulted-in-9-5-boost-to-retail-spending-finds-bank-analysis/

 

[KJHburg]

well my Texas vacation is wrapping up I have uploaded lots of photos to the San Antonio page check them out if you like

https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/forum/214-san-antonio/

Lots to learn here for Charlotte #1 being historical preservation and adaptive reuse.  

I forget who on this board loves high rises to spread everywhere in town well there is a place and it called Houston where this is happening!  They have great parks, big highways and toll lanes and some of the best museums in the country.    Check out the photos of the historical buildings saved in downtown Houston.  Their older high rises are still there just overshadowed by their huge new taller buildings much like Charlotte.     Anyway as the need arises in a discussion about something in Charlotte some of these Texas photos may resurface.  If you have any questions about any of them just let me know.  The SA and Houston threads are not very active at all which is a shame.  

My recent photos start on page 4 

 

[KJHburg]

Houston where you can build just about anything everywhere especially downtown restores a 105 year old building and turns into a upscale AC by Marriott.   

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2019/03/15/ac-hotel-by-marriott-to-open-in-downtown-houston.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2019-03-15&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1552684592&j=87264061

[asthasr]

I really dislike this project, frankly, and think it'll probably be crime-ridden. That said, it's interesting as an illustration of how much usable space these sorts of elevated expressways really eat up: The Bentway, Toronto.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, asthasr said:

I really dislike this project, frankly, and think it'll probably be crime-ridden. That said, it's interesting as an illustration of how much usable space these sorts of elevated expressways really eat up: The Bentway, Toronto. [emphasis added]

Have you ever been to Toronto? Crime is the last thing anyone needs to worry about with this project.

[tozmervo]

47 minutes ago, kermit said:

Have you ever been to Toronto? Crime is the last thing anyone needs to worry about with this project.

my bicycle was stolen at Toronto city hall. true story. 

[asthasr]

53 minutes ago, kermit said:

Have you ever been to Toronto? Crime is the last thing anyone needs to worry about with this project.

I haven't. However safe a city might overall might be, liminal spaces under highways... well, I just think they provide opportunity.

[kermit]

1 minute ago, asthasr said:

I haven't. However safe a city might overall might be, liminal spaces under highways... well, I just think they provide opportunity.

They do, I agree with that expectation in general. Its just that Toronto is.... different. Really different.

 

[KJHburg]

Spent just a few hours in Savannah (more next trip in May) but always something to learn.   Savannah and its strict historic preservation and architectural standards gets great results.  From Friday in the Hostess City of Savannah.  My favorite city in Georgia and one of the KJ top 5 in the USA.  

1. new hotel great look doesnt look cheap.  2.    The BB&T office in downtown across the street from the uglier 1970s Sun Trust building not pictured.  3. Johnson Square office tower tallest office building in town.  15 stories 1911 built.  4. Lucas Theater part of SCAD now 5. Main shopping street lots of restored storefronts Broughton St.  6. newer Bohemian hotel total of 9 stories with 3 more from this shot down to River St level rooftop bar.    7.  this is new the Savannah wanderwall I am calling it on the Hotel Indigo in a 1970s conversion of another hotel.   8.  this power plant is becoming a huge new Kessler owned Marriott hotel with new construction and the meeting space in the old power plant down by the river.   Great reuse and new hotel.  

 

 

[KJHburg]

one more from Savannah here is the brand new Alida Hotel off River Street.  All brick and made to look old.  It is in the Tribute  portfolio hotel part of the Marriott family.   Savannah has great design standards especially downtown.