The State of Higher Education in Charlotte

[KJHburg]

as a proud uncle of an ASU student I am happy about this new campus in Hickory.   She is up in Boone but this is great for the Hickory MSA which is apart of the greater Charlotte CMSA.  Opened today! 

https://today.appstate.edu/2023/08/21/hickory

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/students-arrive-app-states-first-ever-day-classes-hickory-campus/MUH5NQQUWVDAFK37HNWVPOOQFQ/

https://hickoryrecord.com/video/news/facilities-management-gives-tour-of-app-state-hickory-campus/video_223ecd0f-1522-5aa7-9b94-d3f8afe401da.html

Channel 9 reports that many students were commuting up the mountain to Boone from the Hickory area and this allows them a closer option.    This reminds me of the big Texas public universities that have branches all over that state like Texas A&M which is opening a huge new downtown campus in Fort Worth. 

 

[rancenc]

Enrollment is up at the Cabarrus College of Health Sciences!

https://independenttribune.com/news/local/enrollment-explodes-at-cabarrus-college-fueled-by-new-programs-scholarships/article_c2050930-4e3e-11ee-b2d6-e7ab333a9c57.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

[KJHburg]

Charlotte home of the 2nd largest university in the state.  Record breaking attendance at UNC Charlotte. 

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/education/unc-charlotte-breaks-enrollment-record/275-16e6651b-882a-4791-a323-01d4454fe3fb

[KJHburg]

More details on this year students at UNC Charlotte where they are from,  family background etc.  We all need to cheer and support UNC Charlotte as this helps the city grow in so many different ways. 

UNC Charlotte breaks records for first-year, graduate and international student enrollments | Inside UNC Charlotte | UNC Charlotte

[kermit]

^ The headline is missing this: ”despite declining budgets.”

"supporting UNC Charlotte" also means electing people who support higher ed.

Edited September 14, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Charlotte may finally get a law school this time from Elon.

Elon University seeks to start law school in Charlotte - Business North Carolina (businessnc.com)

Law schools in major NC cities lets see Raleigh 1  with Campbell, Durham 2 with Duke and NCCU, Greensboro 1 with Elon, Winston Salem 1 with Wake Forest, High Point soon with HPU

here an idea go into the space at Charlotte Plaza that was set up for the former CLT school of Law.  But this needs to be uptown somewhere 

[kermit]

Elon Law School is apparently headed for 330 W Tremont. Its occupying the Arrival space. Signage is going up today. The Southend juggernaut continues.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/09/15/elon-university-law-school-charlotte.html

Edited September 15, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

well they are fast.  seen today.  

[KJHburg]

More details on Elon University law school and more from Biz Journal.

""Charlotte will once again have a law school offering beginning in 2024.

Elon University today launched its new regional center and Elon Law Flex Program, a part-time and in-person program geared toward working professionals wanting to earn a law degree. The programs are located in 14,000 square feet on the third floor at 330 W. Tremont Ave. in South End.

The flex program allows students to earn a degree in four years and will offer a full range of electives as well as opportunities in law clinics, publication in law journals and moot court programs and competitions. Charlotte's program will incorporate the same teaching model as the full-time, two-and-a-half program in Greensboro.   Law classes will begin in fall 2024, pending approval by the American Bar Association and The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges. The program will accept about 35 students to its first class. Applications open on Oct. 1.  The regional center also offers undergraduates majoring and minoring in sports management the chance to study and work in Charlotte through internships with local media and sports organizations. ""

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/09/19/elon-university-launches-law-program-south-end.html

[Rufus]

I'm sorry but this just sucks big time for the second largest university in the state that calls this city home. I mean, we have UNC MBA here, Wake Forest medical school, and now Elon Law? Can the city actually nurture and support professional programs at its own university? Why is it that everything has to be outsourced by other universities not located in the city? And don't come at me with that prestige, they've been around longer story. This just cuts the university at its knees towards developing successful professional and research programs. It's amazing what it has done without the support of the city. 

[CLT2014]

7 minutes ago, Rufus said:

I'm sorry but this just sucks big time for the second largest university in the state that calls this city home. I mean, we have UNC MBA here, Wake Forest medical school, and now Elon Law? Can the city actually nurture and support professional programs at its own university? Why is it that everything has to be outsourced by other universities not located in the city? And don't come at me with that prestige, they've been around longer story. This just cuts the university at its knees towards developing successful professional and research programs. It's amazing what it has done without the support of the city. 

I think the problem is red tape and support from the UNC Board of Governors and State General Assembly supporting the ongoing funding of a law school at UNCC versus the city. There is a perception that "the world has enough lawyers" and additional schools are not needed to meet North Carolina's needs (they don't necessarily care about Charlotte's needs specifically, but the state).

The city has this found more success partnering with private institutions that aren't controlled by state entities to bring programs to Charlotte.

Edited September 20, 2023 by CLT2014

[Rufus]

23 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I think the problem is red tape and support from the UNC Board of Governors and State General Assembly supporting the ongoing funding of a law school at UNCC versus the city. There is a perception that "the world has enough lawyers" and additional schools are not needed to meet North Carolina's needs (they don't necessarily care about Charlotte's needs specifically, but the state).

The city has this found more success partnering with private institutions that aren't controlled by state entities to bring programs to Charlotte.

And that is the problem. Look, I get it, it's the easy route, but it really sucks and looks bad that our own university doesn't even get the chance or the push from the city to the BOG and SGA for these services. Charlotte should be banging the door of both to demand support like ECU got in the 70s for their medical school 

[kermit]

11 hours ago, Rufus said:

And that is the problem. Look, I get it, it's the easy route, but it really sucks and looks bad that our own university doesn't even get the chance or the push from the city to the BOG and SGA for these services. Charlotte should be banging the door of both to demand support like ECU got in the 70s for their medical school 

Most folks at ECU still feel like the University is still paying the price for the med school in terms of the UNC System and the NCGA being reluctant to allocate much additional money to Greenville because 'they got theirs' back in the 1980s. I can't say how many people feel this way but I have heard this story from more than one VERY highly placed administrators  at ECU.

Demographic pressures on the system are uneven. ECU, Western, UNCG and UNC-A (and I am guessing Pembroke) are seeing significant enrollment declines. Unfortunately the NCGA assumes that the healthy regional campuses (UNCC and UNCW) will follow along in this trend (but they have continued to grow). Basically the whole system is in an austerity mode, even though the demographics of the state are strong and  UNCC and UNCW remain in high demand with students from the region (and the two flagships are still chugging along). Historically campus budgets have been tied to enrollment, but that connection has been broken by the legislature so UNCC is at record enrollment but is unlikely to see any additional revenue to teach those students this year. The practical result of this is students are unable to find open classes and are forced to delay their graduation dates. I also noticed yesterday students are being housed at the Hilton — there is a campus shuttle to it.

Tldr: The state has been reluctant to provide any capital investment to campuses for a long while, buildings at UNCC and UNCW are full of undergrads so big new programs (like professional schools) are very unlikely.

Edited September 20, 2023 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

6 hours ago, kermit said:

Most folks at ECU still feel like the University is still paying the price for the med school in terms of the UNC System and the NCGA being reluctant to allocate much additional money to Greenville because 'they got theirs' back in the 1980s. I can't say how many people feel this way but I have heard this story from more than one VERY highly placed administrators  at ECU.

Demographic pressures on the system are uneven. ECU, Western, UNCG and UNC-A (and I am guessing Pembroke) are seeing significant enrollment declines. Unfortunately the NCGA assumes that the healthy regional campuses (UNCC and UNCW) will follow along in this trend (but they have continued to grow). Basically the whole system is in an austerity mode, even though the demographics of the state are strong and  UNCC and UNCW remain in high demand with students from the region (and the two flagships are still chugging along). Historically campus budgets have been tied to enrollment, but that connection has been broken by the legislature so UNCC is at record enrollment but is unlikely to see any additional revenue to teach those students this year. The situation is so bad that UNCC had to house students at the Hilton and they run a shuttle to it. The state will be very reluctant to provide any capital investment to campuses for a long while, buildings at UNCC and UNCW are full of undergrads so big new programs (like professional schools) are very unlikely.

Let's hope UNC system doesn't plan like WVA. (anticipate growth that may not come)

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

Let's hope UNC system doesn't plan like WVA. (anticipate growth that may not come)

WVU went all-in on accommodating their wished-for 20% enrollment growth in a state that was loosing population (and is surrounded on three sides by shrinking states). They appeared to have no plan for how to recruit those 7,000 new students beyond the standard “look, new buildings!”

NC is a state that is still growing by 1% per year plus it has a population structure more skewed towards kids than most other states. We have a long history of out of state recruitment of students as well. Overbuilding is much less a risk in a growing state than it was in WVA (but it is a risk). I am not suggesting UNC system campuses need a big building initiative, just that enrollment growth is paid for appropriately each year.

Edited September 20, 2023 by kermit

[J-Rob]

Interesting quote in  The Charlotte Ledger today. Makes me wonder if there is still opportunity for UNC Charlotte or Wake Forest to add a law school.  I agree it is an embarrassing missed opportunity for UNC Charlotte to not have a law school near their Uptown campus. 

[KJHburg]

No I blame this lack of state supported law school on UNC Chapel Hill.  They should have long ago opened a branch here as it is already accredited and so forth in conjunction with UNC Charlotte.    Many of our state universities want to protect their turfs and wont cooperate with each other.  

I still think Wake Forest will consider opening a branch of their law school here.  UNC Chapel Hill remember blew it with the med school when they had the chance with Atrium. 

anyway this is a positive for Charlotte no matter who does it but the bigger prize and much more important is the medical school. 

[tozmervo]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

Most folks at ECU still feel like the University is still paying the price for the med school in terms of the UNC System and the NCGA being reluctant to allocate much additional money to Greenville because 'they got theirs' back in the 1980s. I can't say how many people feel this way but I have heard this story from more than one VERY highly placed administrators  at ECU.

Demographic pressures on the system are uneven. ECU, Western, UNCG and UNC-A (and I am guessing Pembroke) are seeing significant enrollment declines. Unfortunately the NCGA assumes that the healthy regional campuses (UNCC and UNCW) will follow along in this trend (but they have continued to grow). Basically the whole system is in an austerity mode, even though the demographics of the state are strong and  UNCC and UNCW remain in high demand with students from the region (and the two flagships are still chugging along). Historically campus budgets have been tied to enrollment, but that connection has been broken by the legislature so UNCC is at record enrollment but is unlikely to see any additional revenue to teach those students this year. The practical result of this is students are unable to find open classes and are forced to delay their graduation dates. I also noticed yesterday students are being housed at the Hilton — there is a campus shuttle to it.

Tldr: The state has been reluctant to provide any capital investment to campuses for a long while, buildings at UNCC and UNCW are full of undergrads so big new programs (like professional schools) are very unlikely.

The demographic realities are absolutely real, but I did want to note that Western reported an 8.8% increase in incoming first years this year (3rd largest class). 

Fall 2023 data isn't official yet, but you can see enrollment information for all campuses through Fall '22 here: Interactive Data Dashboards – UNC System (northcarolina.edu)

It's worth noting that Western, Pembroke, Fayetteville State, and Elizabeth City State are all promise campuses with $500/semester tuition and resulted in spikes of enrollment for all of them.

My $.02 is that UNC Asheville is in serious trouble. I have been wondering if there is any effort to add it to the Promise program. 

[Blue_Devil]

1 hour ago, J-Rob said:

Interesting quote in  The Charlotte Ledger today. Makes me wonder if there is still opportunity for UNC Charlotte or Wake Forest to add a law school.  I agree it is an embarrassing missed opportunity for UNC Charlotte to not have a law school near their Uptown campus. 

Wake Forest will add a branch of their Law School on the Innovation Campus in the next 5 years. This is not a guess. MBA programs and a Nursing school as well

[kermit]

Setting aside the issues of NCGA and UNC System treatment of UNCC, it is a HUGE benefit for Charlotte to have research-active arms of well-funded private universities here. Generally cities perform best in innovation and adaptability when they have a large public AND private universities in town to drive change and maintain culture. The Bay area, Pittsburgh and the Triangle being a prime examples. There are others who pin Detroit’s decline on the absence of a large private university to stabilize the city (Henry Ford’s well-known anti-intellectualism gets much of the blame here). Cleveland would have likely suffered a worse fate than Detroit if not for Case-Western. Philadelphia avoiding a Baltimore outcome. Wake Forest medicine helped Winston avoid pulling a Rocky Mount. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by kermit

[Rufus]

57 minutes ago, kermit said:

Setting aside the issues of NCGA and UNC System treatment of UNCC, it is a HUGE benefit for Charlotte to have research-active arms of well-funded private universities here. Generally cities perform best in innovation and adaptability when they have a large public AND private universities in town to drive change and maintain culture. The Bay area, Pittsburgh and the Triangle being a prime examples. There are others who pin Detroit’s decline on the absence of a large private university to stabilize the city (Henry Ford’s well-known anti-intellectualism gets much of the blame here). Cleveland would have likely suffered a worse fate than Detroit if not for Case-Western. Philadelphia avoiding a Baltimore outcome. Wake Forest medicine helped Winston avoid pulling a Rocky Mount. 

And you can see the desire for medical schools and the research funding that comes with them in the massive expansion of new schools in Florida and Texas. Schools long seen as commuter-schools or even semi-regional schools are getting into the medical education field, and I think it is paying off for them. Look at the University of South Florida which is the same age as UNC Charlotte, and was just accepted in the AAU. It's no secret that we are at a crossroads for the need for more doctors and nurses. It's always baffled me why this state doesn't look at it this way. I get it, UNC Chapel Hill is the big fish in a little pond. They get to command so much power across the region, and it works to their advantage. 

Unfortunately, and not to wade into the politics of the last decade or so, but I think that has only hurt what was once one of the crowning public university systems in the country, and you are seeing the effects of it now with declining enrollment (not to say they are exclusively linked and there aren't other factors at play). UNC Asheville had billed itself as the state's only true public liberal-arts college, and I wish it were still treated that way (and maybe do the same with UNC Pembroke). 

We are really starting to see the once-regional campuses of Charlotte, Appalachian, and Wilmington take off as a result of population changes and dynamism in their regions. It would be great to see the system resemble the University of California system.  

[kermit]

27 minutes ago, Rufus said:

We are really starting to see the once-regional campuses of Charlotte, Appalachian, and Wilmington take off as a result of population changes and dynamism in their regions.

Yea, the politics of the past 15 years has really taken a toll on the system. It is much more difficult to hire talented faculty than it once was, many turn jobs down after they learn more about those politics, and many more leave in the face of limited retention offers and the recognition that graduate student funding (critically important for new faculty to build research programs around) remains amongst the lowest in the country.

One elaboration on your comment, I was always told that Appalachian is currently at peak enrollment due to its campus geography -- there is just no room to expand campus in the bowl that it sits in. Charlotte and Wilmington (and possibly A&T which has been doing really well lately) have been said to be the only growing campuses left with available land for growth.   Of course, this assumes the system sticks with the sprawl model of campus development. Building up is always an option.

[tozmervo]

55 minutes ago, kermit said:

One elaboration on your comment, I was always told that Appalachian is currently at peak enrollment due to its campus geography -- there is just no room to expand campus in the bowl that it sits in. Charlotte and Wilmington (and possibly A&T which has been doing really well lately) have been said to be the only growing campuses left with available land for growth.   Of course, this assumes the system sticks with the sprawl model of campus development. Building up is always an option.

Building up is a lot of what App has been doing, and of course they opened their Hickory campus this year. They're finding creative ways to densify the Boone campus and expand it - there's a big push onto the hill where the Broyhill conference center used to be, and they're continuing to add to older buildings, claim back surface parking, etc. I'd say App's biggest problem is a severe housing shortage, which is becoming Boone's severe housing shortage. 

[Rufus]

I will also say that Appalachian has many buildings that will need to be renovated or redeveloped in the coming years due to age. It'll be interesting to see how it manages those changes. The Hickory campus is a start, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them try to get into Asheville or Winston soon. 

[kermit]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:14 PM, tozmervo said:

Building up is a lot of what App has been doing, and of course they opened their Hickory campus this year. They're finding creative ways to densify the Boone campus and expand it - there's a big push onto the hill where the Broyhill conference center used to be, and they're continuing to add to older buildings, claim back surface parking, etc. I'd say App's biggest problem is a severe housing shortage, which is becoming Boone's severe housing shortage. 

I have never felt like satellite campuses like ASU's in Hickory make much of a blip in enrollment numbers since they have so little appeal to the traditional undergraduate demographic (who wants their college experience to be in a former corporate building beside the Taco Bell on 321).  Having said that, they are huge with the adult education crowd (see Pfeiffer in Charlotte), but I am not sure that ASU can widely appeal to the adult education demographic.  Having said that, the culture of college changed a TON with Covid, so perhaps taking a portion of classes in these remote sites is the wave of the future?

EDIT: ASU had a Master's level urban planning program in Asheville back around 2000? I don't believe it survived more than 7-8 years.

Edited September 23, 2023 by kermit