Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[Dale]

Never mind LU3, is the parking garage visible from the stadium ?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dale said:

Never mind LU3, is the parking garage visible from the stadium ?

When I was in town for the Ravens game in late October the parking deck was visible from the top 6 rows, and there were still a few floors to build.

[Blakcatfan]

Hopefully LU 3 will eventually block the deck.

 

[Dale]

I’ve heard that you can see the curvature of the earth from the top of the garage. Okay, I’ll stop.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Blakcatfan said:

Hopefully LU 3 will eventually block the deck.

 

You'd think... but not anymore. They are adding 800 spaces onto the deck expanding it all the way to mint and then building 12 or so floors of office on top. So LU3 will literally never block it. I just hope they screen it nicely.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Guest

[Crucial_Infra]

5 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

You'd think... but not anymore. They are adding 800 spaces onto the deck expanding it all the way to mint and then building 12 or so floors of office on top. So LU3 will literally never block it. I just hope they screen it nicely.

Sigh... so maybe it really will be the fifth largest deck in the world or whatever they were claiming. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Crucial_Infra said:

Sigh... so maybe it really will be the fifth largest deck in the world or whatever they were claiming. 

last look it was 2900, now being expanded to 3700. The deck across the street is around 900, so all told Legacy Union now has 4600 parking spaces. 2500 more than Duke Energy Center, Museum Tower, Knight Theatre, Mint Museum, and Bechtler Museum all share.

Conversely, Duke Energy 2, will only have 1,000 spots, despite being more than 1M gsf

Edited April 25, 2019 by Guest

[FreeOpinions]

28 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

last look it was 2900, now being expanded to 3700. The deck across the street is around 900, so all told Legacy Union now has 4600 parking spaces. 2500 more than Duke Energy Center, Museum Tower, Knight Theatre, Mint Museum, and Bechtler Museum all share.

Conversely, Duke Energy 2, will only have 1,000 spots, despite being more than 1M gsf

DEC 2 is banking on the existing deck spaces on graham street.  The 1000 spaces is code minimum requirement for a 1 million sf office building. Code minimum does not provide enough spaces for all the employees in an office tower.  As one of the last surface lots existing uptown future towers will now require to put all required parking for both code and market driven rates all on site.  This will lead to taller towers with parking podiums.  Too much granite under ground for sub grade parking.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, FreeOpinions said:

DEC 2 is banking on the existing deck spaces on graham street.  The 1000 spaces is code minimum requirement for a 1 million sf office building. Code minimum does not provide enough spaces for all the employees in an office tower.  As one of the last surface lots existing uptown future towers will now require to put all required parking for both code and market driven rates all on site.  This will lead to taller towers with parking podiums.  Too much granite under ground for sub grade parking.  

See heres my question. 

Legacy Union Main Deck will cover nearly 3 acres. If you spent $30,000 per space burying the deck, it'd come out to $108,000,000. Yes thats a crap ton of money, but then you'd have 3 fresh acres to put uses on. Just a thought. Am I wrong?

Edited April 25, 2019 by Guest

[FreeOpinions]

22 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

See heres my question. 

Legacy Union Main Deck will cover nearly 3 acres. If you spent $30,000 per space burying the deck, it'd come out to $108,000,000. Yes thats a crap ton of money, but then you'd have 3 fresh acres to put uses on. Just a thought. Am I wrong?

Those spaces could be as high as 50,000 a space underground.  Blasting rock is expensive. Building below the water table is expensive. Building buildings over parking is expensive.  Longer schedule means more general conditions costs.  Most office tenants have time lines to get into a tower so schedule alone could kill the deal.

Without knowing what was going to be on top you can’t plan for increased structural members where you need them and you can just make everywhere capable of supporting anything.  

It’s not a bad idea just doesn’t lend itself  to being flexible with investment and optionality as you might think it does.   Being flexible with a large site keeps you from being back into a corner with no exit strategy.  

One thing is certain.  Developers don’t build more spaces than necessary as demanded by the market place.  If the tenant request X spaces to sign the deal then that is what is provided.   Otherwise a developer can get the same rent with less investment costs by building less parking and make a higher rate of return.  

Edited April 25, 2019 by FreeOpinions

[CLTranspo]

Makes me wish Charlotte had parking maximums. Especially after we build a few more light rail lines and/or commuter rail and non-auto access from across the region is more competitive. 

[FreeOpinions]

10 minutes ago, CLTranspo said:

Makes me wish Charlotte had parking maximums. Especially after we build a few more light rail lines and/or commuter rail and non-auto access from across the region is more competitive. 

The city could invest in parking garages that entice development since they could lease those spaces instead of building their own and the city would make profits just like they do on the deck at the airport.

Where oh were could they build them?

[Norm2]

22 minutes ago, CLTranspo said:

Makes me wish Charlotte had parking maximums. Especially after we build a few more light rail lines and/or commuter rail and non-auto access from across the region is more competitive. 

I could be mistaken, but I think the new UDO ordinance will eventually install parking maximum rules

[NCMike1990]

Sign going up...

 

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, CLTranspo said:

Makes me wish Charlotte had parking maximums. Especially after we build a few more light rail lines and/or commuter rail and non-auto access from across the region is more competitive. 

The now-updated zoning for TOD has parking maximums. My understanding is that they will blanket rezone transit corridors TOD if they aren't already zoned that way. 

I don't know the grandfathering rules if the amount of parking was already approved, but it is very difficult (understandably) to retract an approval.

I am in total agreement that this amount of parking is an abomination 

[U_R_]

Looks like misery like company. Emory just planned a 3000 space parking deck in Midtown, but some people are happy because it will free up vacant lots.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/emory-midtown-aims-use-parking-consolidation-create-city-of-atlanta/

If the parking garage has nice materials on the outside, it will definitely look "ok" or even nice.

[Guest]

Those spaces could be as high as 50,000 a space underground.  Blasting rock is expensive. Building below the water table is expensive. Building buildings over parking is expensive.  Longer schedule means more general conditions costs.  Most office tenants have time lines to get into a tower so schedule alone could kill the deal.
Without knowing what was going to be on top you can’t plan for increased structural members where you need them and you can just make everywhere capable of supporting anything.  
It’s not a bad idea just doesn’t lend itself  to being flexible with investment and optionality as you might think it does.   Being flexible with a large site keeps you from being back into a corner with no exit strategy.  
One thing is certain.  Developers don’t build more spaces than necessary as demanded by the market place.  If the tenant request X spaces to sign the deal then that is what is provided.   Otherwise a developer can get the same rent with less investment costs by building less parking and make a higher rate of return.  

Dec1 was 30k a space I think, adjusted for inflation.


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One thing is certain.  Developers don’t build more spaces than necessary as demanded by the market place.  If the tenant request X spaces to sign the deal then that is what is provided.   Otherwise a developer can get the same rent with less investment costs by building less parking and make a higher rate of return.  

I know the last part is a fact


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[FreeOpinions]

14 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Dec1 was 30k a space I think, adjusted for inflation.


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I know the last part is a fact


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There’s monetary inflation then there is construction inflation.   Materials cost more, subs cost more, contractor costs more.  Its compounded inflation.  When gas hit record highs everyone adjusted for added fuel cost of shipping. Nice Precast parking in 2008 was 12k per space.   Today the same deck would have been 18k per space.  

Underground also carries a higher premium if you go classified vs unclassified meaning the sub holds his cost regardless of finding rock or unsuitable soils.  That can be a large premium for risk management.  

[King of the Queen City]

The Pyramid as viewed from field level, taken from the Panthers’ Snapchat of the NFL Draft Party.  Look how small the sign on the building looks compared with the one on the jumbotron...

[Guest]

There’s monetary inflation then there is construction inflation.   Materials cost more, subs cost more, contractor costs more.  Its compounded inflation.  When gas hit record highs everyone adjusted for added fuel cost of shipping. Nice Precast parking in 2008 was 12k per space.   Today the same deck would have been 18k per space.  
Underground also carries a higher premium if you go classified vs unclassified meaning the sub holds his cost regardless of finding rock or unsuitable soils.  That can be a large premium for risk management.  

Glad you joined to reign in our armchair developer tendencies. Hahahaha


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[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

^font size*

Eh, it's logo recognition though.  The flag hasn't been installed in that pic yet either.  Similar to: you don't necessarily need to read the small print "McDonalds" when you see the golden arches.

[Crucial_Infra]

10 hours ago, King of the Queen City said:

The Pyramid as viewed from field level, taken from the Panthers’ Snapchat of the NFL Draft Party.  Look how small the sign on the building looks compared with the one on the jumbotron...

 Interesting, using Google Earth, the logos are about the same size  (approx 83’ feet long). The difference: one is about 450’ from the camera, the other is about 1300’ away. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Crucial_Infra

[Crucial_Infra]

5:34 PM April 26, 2018  ||  5:36 PM April 26, 2019

[jey_8888]

Not my picture - but since when has the mound of dirt next to the parking deck been named Mt. Reinhardt? There's even a marker for it on Google Maps...

[Crucial_Infra]

Flag up on the “west” face...

Edit to add: Btw, I think I’ve changed my mind; it might’ve looked better without the sign but I reserve the right to change it again  

Edited April 27, 2019 by Crucial_Infra