Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[allthingsplanes]

^ That's a seasonal flight.  I don't know how long it's been running.

[Miesian Corners]

One more commercial airline lesson, friends.  A "non-stop" flight is just that: non-stop single plane service from point A to point B.  A "direct" flight is simply the same flight number between two points, but with as many stops as the airline wants to add.  Example: US Airways has a direct flight from Rome to Los Angeles--same flight number, but it stops in CLT and has a change of planes.  

[ChessieCat]

Hello everybody. I've been a long time reader on this thread and wanted to say how much I enjoy reading this on a daily basis. A nice break from the violent airliners net hate of CLT. From my username JetBlueCLT, I'm a very very big JetBlue fan. I hope everyone doesn't mind me adding JetBlue into the discussions every now and then.

Anyways, I've been torn through years on why JetBlue dropped CLT-FLL. From memory, the flight departed CLT at 9:45am which was a perfect time to connect to the cruise ships and Caribbean bank of flights. Then all of a sudden they changed it to a 7pm flight and then ended it.

So my question/comment is, Does anybody see CLT-FLL returning in the foreseeable future?

For global travelers, the key to JetBlue's relevance is their alliance with Emirates. You can't earn miles flying on EK with any other domestic airline and for this reason frequent travelers need only 5 FF accounts: oneworld (AA/US), Star (United), SkyTeam (Delta), Southwest, and JetBlue...

I wish JBU would add a third Emirates gateway instead of just BOS & JFK. CLT-IAD is the most logical but dunno if daily E190 service would have the mix of O&D and connecting B6/EK traffic to be profitable. B6 does offer a lot of west coast destinations from IAD so IMHO it is better to have your own personal entertainment system on a transcon flight than not...

Edited April 24, 2014 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

US has historically been stronger to Germany than AA. AA currently can't even fly a daily flight to Frankfurt from ORD. US has consistently provided service to Germany since 1991, and their second TATL route was CLT-FRA. For years they have operated CLT and PHL daily to FRA, and operated PIT to FRA up until 2004 or so. US flies to Munich from PHL as well. I would argue that the US brand is bigger in Germany than the AA brand, and the merger will only increase AA's brand presence in the region.

 

While I doubt that CLT-FRA would continue to be flown double daily, I could see a 777 on the route, especially during the summer months. Interestingly enough, PHL-FRA isn't even operating daily this month. It seems it is operating only a couple of days per week. CLT-FRA is currently double daily.

 

I'd argue that this is the TATL portfolio you will see from CLT in 2 years:

 

LHR-2x daily year round. One flight on an AA operated 777, one on BA.

FRA-1x daily year round. Probably a A333 or 772 in the summer, and a A332 or 763 in the winter.

MAD-1x daily year round. Probably on a 763. Maybe a A330 in the Summer.

CDG-Hard to say. US attempted to fly CDG year round for two years and could not make the flight work. However, AA has a bigger brand in the area, so maybe they could make the flight work year round on a 763.

 

Wildcards:

 

-DUB: With the Chiquita/Fyffes merger, I could see some sort of increased demand and need for the DUB flight. This flight may stay on a 752 year round.

-FCO: I could see if staying seasonally on a 763.

 

On a different note, why are the majority of the TATL flights departing from Concourse B lately?

At ORD, AA has tried to remedy their weakness to Germany by launching ORD-DUS in 2012 alongside AB's launch of ORD-TXL in 2013. It'll be interesting to see if one of the now seasonal 2x daily CLT-FRA flights gets transfered to CLT-DUS in 2015.

[ssh214]

At ORD, AA has tried to remedy their weakness to Germany by launching ORD-DUS in 2012 alongside AB's launch of ORD-TXL in 2013. It'll be interesting to see if one of the now seasonal 2x daily CLT-FRA flights gets transfered to CLT-DUS in 2015.

 

I can definitely see one of them being transferred to CLT-DUS, but I could also see a scenario where the 777 moves to the CLT-FRA 1-daily, and see potentially a 787 on CLT-DUS. Our dear friends on airliners.net consider the 787 impractical for CLT referring to any usage of a 787 as "junk-yields"; completely disagree with that notion. 

[ChessieCat]

I can definitely see one of them being transferred to CLT-DUS, but I could also see a scenario where the 777 moves to the CLT-FRA 1-daily, and see potentially a 787 on CLT-DUS. Our dear friends on airliners.net consider the 787 impractical for CLT referring to any usage of a 787 as "junk-yields"; completely disagree with that notion.

I also disagree with the notion about the 788 too... Saw my first Qatar 788 takeoff at ZRH over the weekend on the way to DOH. ZRH-DOH is about as junk as a route you can get for underutilizing the 788's range. Would love to see one of those birds flown to full potential here in the future on the CLT-DOH route...

Since you predict the 777 will fly the CLT-FRA route and since there is enough summer demand for both an A333 and A332 flight today, do you think we could see the 777-300ER flying CLT-FRA in the future? If so then the A332 could be freed up for CLT-DUS or even a 763. Other posters on this forum think the 788 is too impractical for hub-hub ops and makes more sense for routes like LHR-AUS, etc.

Even CLT-LHR could be upgraded to a 77W in the summer months. Now that would be a sight to see...

Edited April 24, 2014 by ChessieCat

[LKN704]

US started CLT-BZE back in around 2003 I believe. Recall that during that time, US was the second largest airline to the Caribbean after AA. They even applied a separate brand to their Caribbean services: "US Airways Caribbean". However, it wouldn't surprise me that BZE gets cut because of the merger.

 

You won't be seeing a 77W into CLT anytime soon. You won't even be seeing one into PHL.

 

The two daily FRA flights are remnants of the US's participation in the Star Alliance. They will be pulled after this summer. I am shocked that US is still offering them even after the loss of the Lufthansa codeshare. One of the flights left CLT nearly empty the other night.

 

Remember that business travelers, along with airlines, tend to prefer frequency. The 77W is a high-density aircraft built for high-yielding routes. (NYC-LHR, NYC-GRU, etc.) CLT-LHR/FRA are not high yielding nor high density.

 

Just pure speculation, I think the following international cities will be cut from CLT: SJD (Los Cabos, MX), BZE (Belize City), ANU (Antigua), BGI (Barbados), UVF (St. Lucia), SKB (St. Kitts/Nevis), STX (St. Croix), LIS (Lisbon), BRU (Brussels), Barcelona (BCN). Most of these cities aren't daily flights, let alone year round, so it shouldn't really affect CLT that much.

[cltbwimob]

The two daily FRA flights are remnants of the US's participation in the Star Alliance. They will be pulled after this summer. I am shocked that US is still offering them even after the loss of the Lufthansa codeshare. One of the flights left CLT nearly empty the other night.

 

Remember that business travelers, along with airlines, tend to prefer frequency. The 77W is a high-density aircraft built for high-yielding routes. (NYC-LHR, NYC-GRU, etc.) CLT-LHR/FRA are not high yielding nor high density.

 

You think both FRA flights will be pulled?

[15895]

I think;

 

London 2X

Madrid  1X

Frankfurt 1X

Paris 1X

[allthingsplanes]

I'm still holding out hope that Rome and Dublin will stay, albeit seasonally, as well as a majority of those caribbean flights.  And Sao Paulo.  But that's just me being optimistic.

[CLTaviation13]

Being optimistic, I do think the 787 from Qatar is a possibility. That would be a real sight to see.

My thoughts on the service to Europe for 2015

CLT-LHR- 2 daily 1 AA A332 1 BA 772

CLT-FRA -1 daily A333

CLT-MUC- 1 daily LH A346(summer) A333 winter

CLT-DUS- 1 daily 763( would love to see Air Berlin though)

CLT-CDG- 1 daily 763

CLT-MAD- 1 daily A332

CLT-BCN- Seasonal A332

CLT-FCO- Seasonal A332

CLT-DUB- Seasonal 752

Maybe Manchester will stick around... Not sure though.

I hope we get to see British Airways announce service to CLT in the foreseeable future. I'm still hopeful of Qatar one day.

Edited April 24, 2014 by JetBlueCLT

[LKN704]

No I don't think FRA will be pulled, only the second seasonal daily. There is good O/D on this route. The flight could be flown without the support of a hub.

 

I am starting to have doubts about LH. A colleague of mine flew to MUC on his way home to Warsaw, and he said coming/going to CLT, the flight was empty in Economy. The A346 won't be lasting if the route survives.  I also don't think MAN/BCN will stick around.

[CLTaviation13]

US started CLT-BZE back in around 2003 I believe. Recall that during that time, US was the second largest airline to the Caribbean after AA. They even applied a separate brand to their Caribbean services: "US Airways Caribbean". However, it wouldn't surprise me that BZE gets cut because of the merger.

 

You won't be seeing a 77W into CLT anytime soon. You won't even be seeing one into PHL.

 

The two daily FRA flights are remnants of the US's participation in the Star Alliance. They will be pulled after this summer. I am shocked that US is still offering them even after the loss of the Lufthansa codeshare. One of the flights left CLT nearly empty the other night."

Before you jump the gun on saying they'll pull CLT-FRA entirely is a little out there. Let's remember that even before US joined the star alliance they operated CLT-FRA. Actually if memory serves correctly, we were one of US Airways first A333 flight for the airline when they were delivered. I could be wrong on that. CLT-FRA is the largest European market from CLT, so they would be crazy to end both fligths. Anyways, Lufthansa and US Airways will still allow passengers to connect on each other even though US left the Star Alliance. So life will be normal here, only difference is planes will be painted and it'll be with the American Airlines paint.

 

[ChessieCat]

^I flew the LH CLT-MUC flight 2 weeks ago and it was full but it was a Friday and obviously had greater demand than say Tue/Wed. LH has gone on record saying the A346 will be pulled after this year in favor of the A333.

Let's not forget the AA/US combine will have one of the largest fleets of 752's in the world so I wouldn't be surprised if CLT-BCN stays with that metal in off-peak. BCN is also Vueling's hub and although they are not oneworld, they are owned by IAG...

CLT-DUS could operate on a 763/752 1x daily rotation year-round if AA believes there is enough demand...

Edited April 24, 2014 by ChessieCat

[CLTaviation13]

^I flew the LH CLT-MUC flight 2 weeks ago and it was full but it was a Friday and obviously had greater demand than say Tue/Wed. LH has gone on record saying the A346 will be pulled after this year in favor of the A333.

Let's not forget the AA/US combine will have one of the largest fleets of 752's in the world so I wouldn't be surprised if CLT-BCN stays with that metal. BCN is also Vueling's hub and although they are not oneworld, they are owned by IAG...

One of the benefits of CLT... The geographic location. A lot of these long and thin routes can work from CLT just because the 752 can reach it.

[LKN704]

I never said FRA would be pulled, only the second daily. Sorry for the confusion. FRA isn't the largest TATL market from CLT. It is LON, which is even smaller than RDU-LON O/D.

BCN cannot be flown with a 752.

The first round of TATL cuts should be coming this fall.

[atlrvr]

Anyway.......so the City filed plans today with Land Development to begin to approval process for the new International Terminal.

[LKN704]

^I think this is a poor decision, in my opinion. They should wait at least two years after the merger is completed before even thinking about an new terminal.

[15895]

I think Theyll make the right decisions. Everyone knows CLT is dependent on American, and American is dependant on Connections & low cost

American will let CLT know what needs and not needs to be done

[LKN704]

Is there a link or a source to the plan?

[southslider]

STL started building a 3rd parallel runway, but then TWA was acquired by American. Just like CLT, STL was largely a single airline's hub, with over 90% of its traffic dependent on that carrier. Granted, American already had a hub with heavy O&D traffic as well in nearby Chicago (ORD). Let's hope for CLT's sake that the new American truly values cost over demand, that ATL or MIA never become feasible for their SE hub, or that the airport's leadership never passes the cost of major expansion onto their major carrier.

[ChessieCat]

I never said FRA would be pulled, only the second daily. Sorry for the confusion. FRA isn't the largest TATL market from CLT. It is LON, which is even smaller than RDU-LON O/D.

BCN cannot be flown with a 752.

The first round of TATL cuts should be coming this fall.

CLT-BCN's great circle distance is roughly 3,811 nm which is is within the 752's maximum full payload range of 3,900 nm. Granted that is pushing the envelope.

I do know AA has a fleet of 18 752s configured just for International ops but have not been able to find any research on their MTOW and if sharklets/RR engines have extended their range beyond 3,900 nm.

The sharklets on AA's 763s and A321Ts are pretty cool IMHO...

Edited April 25, 2014 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

^Update: with sharklets, the 752's max range is 4,100 nm so a whole lot of long and thin TATL destinations will be within range of CLT. A321Ts are set to replace the older 752s in the AA fleet on domestic routes so I wonder if some of the latter can be retrofitted for long-haul routes...

Source:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/04/16/why-the-boeing-company-wont-build-a-new-757.aspx

Edited April 25, 2014 by ChessieCat

[CLTaviation13]

Not trying to get off topic. Does anyone see Alaska Airlines coming to CLT with there existing partnership with AA?

[Miesian Corners]

The only cuts that will be coming this fall beyond what we already know are the usual suspects: Rome (FCO), Paris (CDG), Dublin (DUB), and one of the Frankfurt (FRA) non-stops.  I've been told from my management friends at US that Madrid will go year-round, but in the winter, it will operate 5x a week.  As for Munich (MUC) on Lufthansa (LH), it will probably also go to 5x weekly in the winter.  BMW subsidizes the route (just like GSK does for RDU to London--which, by the way, is the reason it has a higher O&D).  

 

The AA CLT hub isn't going anywhere.  The airline is currently negotiating to build additions to both the CLT Training Center and the CLT Heavy Maintenance Hangar (both owned by the City of Charlotte and leased to US/AA).  And CLT will do nothing without the blessing of American Airlines.  If the airport is seeking to start real planning for the international terminal, it's because Doug Parker asked for it.