Richmond Region Transportation

[burt]

Yes, Ich4. I did indeed mean I-295.

Many many thanks for the Peninsula line PDF.

It looks like GRTC has plans for the shed at MSS, which, IMO, means the downtown depot will never be more than a pass-thru station.

Check out this pdf about GRTC plans via River District News blog:

http://www.riverdistrictnews.com/wp-conten...plan-update.pdf

Edited January 17, 2009 by burt

[heykey4]

Having just looked through that GRTC report, I don't like that idea of using MSS's shed for bus transfer.

It's beginning to appear that it's way too bad that they gave up Broad Street Station. The track configuration and size would have been ideal for what they want to do now. But since it has become the Science Museum the track loop around the station is gone....plus I highly doubt they'd evict the SMV.

The Seaboard freight depot sits to the west of MSS, maybe that could be utilized for bus transfer? I doubt it.

[burt]

Having just looked through that GRTC report, I don't like that idea of using MSS's shed for bus transfer.

It's beginning to appear that it's way too bad that they gave up Broad Street Station. The track configuration and size would have been ideal for what they want to do now. But since it has become the Science Museum the track loop around the station is gone....plus I highly doubt they'd evict the SMV.

The Seaboard freight depot sits to the west of MSS, maybe that could be utilized for bus transfer? I doubt it.

I've never seen actuial photos of its location, but I think the old SAL freight depot sits on top of (or very near) Lumpkins jail.

Ich4, did you know that The American Orient Express as recently as 2 years ago parked overnight at Broad Street Station (the Science Museum of Virginia) when on its annual Southeastern tours. The spur trackage to and from the CSX Main Line is still operable, I believe. But the train tours may have ended.

[heykey4]

I've never seen actuial photos of its location, but I think the old SAL freight depot sits on top of (or very near) Lumpkins jail.

Ich4, did you know that The American Orient Express as recently as 2 years ago parked overnight at Broad Street Station (the Science Museum of Virginia) when on its annual Southeastern tours. The spur trackage to and from the CSX Main Line is still operable, I believe. But the train tours may have ended.

The spur is still operational, but the original configuration....which allowed trains from any direction to pull into the station w/o having to back in or out, is long gone.

As to the SAL freight depot, here's a picture I took of it, I'll have to find one I took that shows the entire building...it sits in front of the burial grounds recently in the news and I've heard and read talk of using the building as a Slave trail stop.

[burt]

Virginia expects $700 million to $800 million from transportation stimulus package.

From late breaking news at R-TD:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/loca...-144004/184678/

I hope a lot of it goes for rail.

Edited January 21, 2009 by burt

[Cadeho]

The spur is still operational, but the original configuration....which allowed trains from any direction to pull into the station w/o having to back in or out, is long gone.

As to the SAL freight depot, here's a picture I took of it, I'll have to find one I took that shows the entire building...it sits in front of the burial grounds recently in the news and I've heard and read talk of using the building as a Slave trail stop.

I'm going to go way off topic here but I clicked on the flickr link and got wrapped up in your 365 Days. You are very very creative and I love your grandmother's house. I love those places!

[heykey4]

I'm going to go way off topic here but I clicked on the flickr link and got wrapped up in your 365 Days. You are very very creative and I love your grandmother's house. I love those places!

Thanks! I appreciate that. I'm way behind in uploading photos but aim to catch up soon.

Burt, I too hope that money is spent on rails. What I am curious about is whether or not it's been considered by Amtrak to reopen routes discontinued years ago (i.e. Richmond - Charlottesville). Perhaps there isn't enough demand for rail service between here and there. Also, why the line from Petersburg to Norfolk/Virginia Beach isn't addressed. I know it's under consideration for the Southeast High Speed Rail, but couldn't they begin service on standard trains in the meantime. My guess again is low demand and/or subpar tracks for passenger use.

A Norfolk-Petersburg-Richmond route possibly could ease I-64 traffic though I doubt the rails connect like they used to in Petersburg. Norfolk & Western ran a train from Norfolk to Richmond via Petersburg. They entered Atlantic Coast Line trackage at Petersburg and ran north. So at one time the tracks connected.

P.S. after posting this I went to maps.live.com and looked at the rail configuration in Petersburg. I doesn't appear Norfolk Southern and CSX tracks have a connection anywhere in the area anymore (none seem to even cross at grade). It looks like they'd have to rebuild the tracks from Petersburg's Union Station up along the old railbed of the ACL track that was taken up years ago in Colonial Heights to where it meets the mainline at Dunlop (near Ellerslie Ave. & Boulevard).

Edited January 22, 2009 by lch4

[burt]

Here's another map. Red is the part of the old S-line that my idea for SEHSR routing would use. Blue is the part of old S-line that would remain unused. Purple is the connection betweent the S-line and the Norfolk Southern main line that I am proposing.

Ich4, have you seen this map? It shows rails in and around Petersburg that existed in the past and may be considered for future sehsr.

Back in the late 1960's or early '70's Amtrak ran a train from Richmond via the Dunlop junction into downtown Petersburg (but not into Union Station), thence on to Roanoke via N&W.

And way back in the 40's (perhaps into the 70's) there was a train from Broad Street Station via Petersburg to Suffolk and Norfolk.

I also recall a night sleeper from Broad Street via P'burg to Bristol in southwest Virginia.

The route MSS to Charlottesville is about 95 miles long, so there would not be much demand anymore, but I recall commuter trains as well as thru sleeper trains to Chicago on that line.

Also, as recently as the late 1950's rail diesel cars used to run from Lynchburg along the James River route to MSS and then on to Newport News.

Edited January 22, 2009 by burt

[heykey4]

Ich4, have you seen this map? It shows rails in and around Petersburg that existed in the past and may be considered for future sehsr.

Back in the late 1960's or early '70's Amtrak ran a train from Richmond via the Dunlop junction into downtown Petersburg (but not into Union Station), thence on to Roanoke via N&W.

And way back in the 40's (perhaps into the 70's) there was a train from Broad Street Station via Petersburg to Suffolk and Norfolk.

I also recall a night sleeper from Broad Street via P'burg to Bristol in southwest Virginia.

The route MSS to Charlottesville is about 95 miles long, so there would not be much demand anymore, but I recall commuter trains as well as thru sleeper trains to Chicago on that line.

Also, as recently as the late 1950's rail diesel cars used to run from Lynchburg along the James River route to MSS and then on to Newport News.

Thanks for the map, that's a good thing to have. I haven't thought of a Richmond-Roanoke route. But I guess that would fall under jurisdiction of the Transdominion Express which, by the way, has nothing new on its website (the last news piece is from last January).

I was reading somewhere (maybe on this board, forgive if I read it here and have forgotten) about how when Amtrak began service in the 70s and they moved to Staples Mill Road station, people bound for Charlottesville had to be taken by bus to Chickahominy or maybe Atlee to board the train. But at 95 miles from MSS to C'ville....that's a two hour ride probably. Perhaps why it was discontinued.

It would seem to me (and I'm biased because of my fondness of trains) that rail service between Richmond - Petersburg - Southside Hampton Roads would be the next logical step. Not knowing prices, does it make sense that investing in such a service would be less expensive than say making I-64 six lanes from Richmond to the tunnel? And, since funding for the US 460 realignment project may be uncertain, passenger rail service may be an option. I don't know the conditon of the NS tracks from Petersrburg to Norfolk, they still carry freight service, but at one time those tracks supported trains capable of 110 mph.

This invisioned train coming west from Norfolk could have unstaffed stops in Wakefield, Waverly, Petersburg Union Station, Chester....and then the question would be does it go up the A line or the S line, with the S line going to MSS. Two trains daily like the Northeast Regional, it's plausable. And eastbound such a train could terminate in Norfolk somewhere for people to connect with their light rail which may possibly one day go to the oceanfront.

If the state, Amtrak, VRE, Transdominion, a combination there of, or anyone else for that matter once to invest in such a service, it could prep the area for the Southeast Highspeed Rail. On the other hand, if it's found that instead the passenger service should run Norfolk to Roanoke then a stop in Petersburg should allow people to transfer to trains bound for Richmond but then we digress from Richmond Region transportation.

The bottom line is that passenger service isn't forthcoming because for one, money and track conditions, but also a perceived lack of demand. The paradox is that if the service were there, the demand would probably come....the "if you build it they will come" mentality. But that's a big gamble for any locality, state, or business to undertake especially in these times. A pipe dream it may be, but with the nation gravitating back to rail service due to recent high oil prices (which may spike again as the economy heals), highway congestion, and the lack of governments to finance highway expansion, rail planning should be going on to a point that if the stars align and they can begin work they can go forward quickly.

[burt]

Ich4, did you click "My Idea" in the entry above the map by Orulz? There's discussion of the two routes east of Richmond in that Urbanplanet exchange.

[heykey4]

Ich4, did you click "My Idea" in the entry above the map by Orulz? There's discussion of the two routes east of Richmond in that Urbanplanet exchange.

Thanks Burt, very interesting discussions.

[burt]

Is BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) in Metro Richmond's future?

I've always believed that Broad Street is far more ideal for rapid transit than roadways in most cities. It is about 15 miles long between 12th Street and Short Pump Town Center, lined with commercial, educational, governmental and business structures, straight as an arrow (except for one or two slight jogs) and wide enough to accommodate buses or light rail.

Although not mentioned in the following R-TD story, I'm not happy with GRTC's plans to use the Main Street Station shed for a major transfer point. The shed should be reserved for future major improvements so that high speed intercity rail can utilize it.

Perhaps the Federal Stimulus Pagage could help out.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/loca...-222034/209206/

[jbjust]

Here is my dream for light rail down the middle of Broad Street. Will never happen, but it sure is pretty.

Edited February 18, 2009 by jbjust

[burt]

Here is my dream for light rail down the middle of Broad Street. Will never happen, but it sure is pretty.

This is neat. It doesn't have overhead wires or third rail so must be powered by diesel or batteries, or whatever. Where is it? Nice on the French Rivierra?

It's basically what GRTC's John Lewis proposes for Broad Street except Richmopnd's would be rubber-wheeled instead of fixed rail in the median. If BRT were approved, I hope it would extend the full length of Broad rather than terminating at Willow Lawn.

[Shakman]

...to Short Pump.

[evanf]

Light Rail down Broad Street is what I envision too. It would be awesome to have it run along a grass boulevard all the way to Short Pump. There's an online forum where you can post your ideas for how you think the stimulus money should be used. I suggested preparations for making Broad Street light rail - ready, so that it would encourage private investment in such a system (I think they've done this in Detroit).

http://www.stimulus.virginia.gov/report.aspx

[burt]

Light Rail down Broad Street is what I envision too. It would be awesome to have it run along a grass boulevard all the way to Short Pump. There's an online forum where you can post your ideas for how you think the stimulus money should be used. I suggested preparations for making Broad Street light rail - ready, so that it would encourage private investment in such a system (I think they've done this in Detroit).

http://www.stimulus.virginia.gov/report.aspx

I'd like to read yours and other comments, evan, but don't know to access them. Can you help an unsavvy computer user?

[burt]

I rarely see any discussion in the local press about the Stimulus Package helping train service in Virginia, but The Raleigh News & Observer has an interesting story on the subject from a North Carolina perspective.

After all, if North Carolina wants high(er) speed rail betweeen Charlotte/Raleigh and Washington it would have to come through Richmond.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1406500.html

[evanf]

If the last link didn't work, this one should.

http://www.stimulus.virginia.gov/

I'm not sure if you have to create an account to view the proposals, but if you click on "Reports" it will give you the list. If you type in "Henrico" in the search filter, you'll be able to find mine (Proj. ID - 813). I meant to select all of Virginia, not just Henrico, because it would be really nice to see alternative transportation like LRT all over Virginia. And I had no idea what amount to put for the funding estimate - I know it would be a lot more than $5 million.

[evanf]

Here's an interesting PBS video on Charlotte's light rail system. It also talks about transportation and politics, a big topic during these times.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/507/index.html

Edited February 23, 2009 by evanf

[burt]

You don't see a helluva lot in the Richmond press about high speed rail so I look elsewhere for all I can find on the subject.

The Raleigh News and Observer has an interesting story about possible fast trains between Charlotte and Washington by 2018. Train time between Charlotte and Richmond would be 4 hours, down by at least 2 hours currently. But north of Richmond the time would be about the same to Washington -- 1 hour 55 minutes.

Check out the "box" to the left of the story...if your eyes can adjust to the jiggling.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/growth/story/1423971.html

[Mobius57]

I hope light rail comes to richmond! Every city needs it!

[burt]

Eleven million of Stimulus funding goes to transform the upper shed of MSS into a Transfer facility. And by so doing, it reduces the effectiveness of rail travel into and out of the city.

A big mistake, IMO.

From today's R-TD:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/loca...-111602/221345/

[wrldcoupe4]

How does it reduce rail's effectiveness and why is it a big mistake?

[ric75]

How does it reduce rail's effectiveness and why is it a big mistake?

I won't speak for burt but if that entire shed is used for a bus transfer station then it does put a future limit on how many trains can pass through that area without major rail modifications and even then, space is a serious limitation. Secondly, I've always felt that downtown needed a destination building and had dreams that this building could fit that bill. making it a transfer station only moves people who were waiting for buses on Broad Street and shifts them over to the Bottom. It won't be an economic boon to the businesses there and in fact could be a burden if it isn't implemented properly. I see the idealism behind this idea but practically I think it's bound to be a failure.