VBIllini13

Awesome news! I get Jimmy John's so much up here at U of I and it's going to great having one so close to home.

Ok I really don't want to revive this argument again, but let's not dwell on the past. Baltimore went through a similar process of urban renewal that Norfolk did, only thing that gave Baltimore the upper hand was Baltimore had more land. If leaders didn't decide to put that overpass going right through Norfolk's downtown, then we might have had a little bit more land to work with, but that would have left Portsmouth without a good connection to Norfolk. Baltimore put their interstate in a good location because there were too many neighborhoods (Fells Point, Canton, Little Italy) that would have been destroyed if one were constructed. Baltimore's success can be largely attributed to a strategic location in the Northeast megalopolis, situation on the Bay, combined with successful urban renewal. The docks and wharfs that dominated Norfolk's waterfront privatized Norfolk's most beautiful feature, and opening up the waterfront was the only logical course of action, both to clean up the dirty industrial area and to enhance the waterfront so it could be used for public space.

Alright I'm gonna try making this my last post for now because we might be getting a bit off topic, but major league teams require dozens of corporate sponsors, both big and small. Harbor Park can't even sell out all of its luxury suites or lease out all of its advertising space. Amerigroup is a corrupt business founded by a greedy man. Jeff McWaters didn't care about the welfare of his employees, only the massive amounts of money he was making. Even under new management, I still don't think Amerigroup would care to sponsor a sports team, if it even could afford it. In order for one of Virginia's two biggest metros to get a major league team, we would need one of the cities to have the population of Hampton Roads and the corporate presence of Richmond. I hate to be slightly pessimistic on this subject, but ten companies are not going to sustain a team. Major league teams a lured to cities for two big reasons: 1. Because the city is a major American city or part of a large metropolitan area with a large corporate presence, headquarters or otherwise (Houston, NYC, LA, Chicago) or 2. Because the owner likes the city so much that he decides to move the team to that city (Raleigh, OKC). I love your optimism varider, you seem a lot like I was a few years ago, but something I came to realize as I got older is that you need to be a bit realistic as well. A healthy mix of both is what will make you a successful planner. I see good things coming out of you kid. Again probably not the right place to ask this, but have you considered where you want to study planning?

Rome wasn't built in a day. Besides, we don't have enough corporate sponsors that would be willing to sponsor an NBA team... not right now at least.

Right, I'm not arguing the fact that they should start playing exhibitions, I'm saying that major league teams should come here to play more exhibition games to see if venues like Harbor Park and Scope are consistently sold out. Of course Harbor Park will be sold out if once every two years the Nats play the O's because it doesn't happen in this area very often, but would Harbor Park be sold out if the O's and/or Nats came and played a few or more spring training games every year? Would Scope be sold out if the Lightning played the Hurricanes (just an example) a few times every year? That's what I was trying to get across.

Not to be a downer or anything, but the NHL isn't really that big of a league. Here up at Illinois, just about everyone's a Blackhawks fan, but a few years ago that wasn't the case. Maybe about ten years ago the owners of the team were struggling to sell tickets and was too embarrased to air games on TV because of the team's low attendance. But here's what happened: the team got good, and voila! Every person in the Chicagoland area is all of a sudden a Blackhawks fan. I really like hockey a lot. I'll never forget when my dad took me to see my first Stars game when I was little. But hockey really isn't America's sport. Only half of the players are American, and we're seeing more teams that were located in the southern United States either lose attendance or are considering a move to Canada (Pheonix). NHL is only really big in cold areas like the Northeast. Having said that, I think we should slowly build our way up in the sporting world by attracting teams that require a higher attendance. Instead of trying to get an NBA team now, why not try attracting a D-league team or something like that? Maybe host more exhibition games at Harbor Park and Scope and see if attendance is consistently good with more major league exhibitions. If attendance is good, companies should be more likely to sponsor professional teams and purchase luxury suites at games. But this is only my opinion though and take it with a grain of salt. I'm only a freshman in college and don't know more about economics than what my dad has explained to me (he's also the same one that told me LRT would never come to Norfolk).

I actually think that a nice, big park would go great there. That area needs a little green space and besides TPP, the city really doesn't have any good or nice parks. JANAF would be a good site for redevelopment, but Military Circle has gotten so dangerous, in addition to run down, that if the park was secured well at night and free of crime, the area could really turn into a beautiful place to relax on a sunny day.

They'll tax the property at that amount. In other words, somebody can buy it for more or less, but the city will tax the property at that assessed value.

Oh that's interesting I had no clue! I have now officially learned more on this forum today than I did all day in class. haha

Here's what I think they should do. Get rid of Waterside's set-back. That absolutely kills it. Reduce Waterside Drive from a 4 lane road to a 2 lane road. Create a 4 way intersection along all parts of Waterside Drive (especially near the Dominion Tower. And going along with connecting all of the Waterfront, they need to get rid of the wall surrounding Nauticus and the Wisconsin. One of the things I love about Baltimore's waterfront is that all parts are accessible to everyone at all times of the day. I think it would really open up downtown.

I will admit that taxes are necessary, and however against raising taxes I may be, I don't have a problem paying them once they are in place. I am actually in favor of TIF districts because the people who will be benefitting most from the improved infrastructure or developments will be the businesses located and resident living in the area. Also, for mass transit projects, especially rail, I think that funding needs to be re-allocated, with less funding going toward interstate construction and more money going toward funding rail projects. The interstate highway system destroyed the populations of urban centers despite promoting easier access to cities for businesses. Hampton Roads was put in a cul-de-sac because (and this is just my theory) Eisenhower defeated General MacArthur in the Republican primary, which likely left a sour taste in the administration's mouth about Norfolk. If priorities could be reset and highway funding cut in favor of rail projects, then both urbanism and the economy could prosper. My parents are against national HSR because they think that because the passenger railroad business went bankrupt before that nobody outside of the Northeast wants to ride it. But up here at school, my friends are very excited about the construction of a HSR route between Chicago and St. Louis.

I can agree with that. It definitely feels like that sometimes, especially because the city has 80+ plans for neighborhoods with very few actually implemented. I don't think it's necessarily a matter of whether or not the city knows what they're doing in this case because the planning managers are extremely experienced and have the right mind-set when it comes to planning and economic development. I think I may have simply misunderstood what you were referring to in your earlier post. I know the city council of Suffolk a few years back, after getting elected, rezoned the entire city, making many citizens angry because their input was not valued. This led to many of the city council members voted out in the next election and much of the zoning changed back. I guess what's best when it comes to this sort of thing is a healthy mix of both tactics and not leaning too far toward one extreme of the other.

my apologies for being a conservative-minded urban planning student who doesn't want to pay more taxes... sorry for taking this discussion a bit off-topic

G-d, I hate when people say we need to be more like Europe or Asia. Last time I checked, Asia was still developing and the US was a greater country, both with regard to the economy and the military, than all European nations combined. Yes Europe may be more walkable, but the economic development in the United States greatly exceeds that of Europe.

I'm sorry but why? Because we don't want to further ourselves in debt and bankrupt ourselves or skyrocket taxes even more? **NOTE FROM ADMIN** We have a policy against flaming on this site, please refrain from doing so in the future. You may want to brush up on our rules.

That "style of planning" is what makes urban planning and community development work hand in hand. Urban planners are servants to the population they serve. Why would you want to build something that the community doesn't want? So it will look nice, but doesn't get any use from the population? The City of Norfolk, like most planning departments in the US, use public input to help draft plans because if the planning department wants to make the city or area better, it needs to ask for public input. It's part of what makes this country great - democracy - the opportunity for citizens to tell their elected and unelected public officials what they want or don't want. Planners just can't go in saying "Here's what we're doing. We think it'll be better for you in the long run whether you like it or not, so just accept it." That's not a democracy, that's socialism.

Actually, the transportation hub (including HSR) is planned on being built at Harbor Park, which is still considered downtown.

Okay, I get what you're trying to say now, and yes, I agree.

Listen, I can't speak for everyone, but I took UP 101, so you don't have to repetitively state what we all know could have been done. But I am telling you that this is the reason why Norfolk chose to level its downtown. Slums in the central business district don't make much appeal to businesses wanting to relocate. It's what most cities did with urban renewal funds and it's what Norfolk did (hearing from the Planning and Economic Development departments). In the time of urban renewal, it was in fact much cheaper to demolish and construct new buildings and low income apartments than it was to renovate the buildings because the government was giving low interest loans to cities subsidizing two-thirds of the money needed to subsidize planning, start-up costs, property acquisition, demolition, and relocation of federally approved urban renewal projects under Title I of the Housing Act of 1949. What Norfolk did through urban renewal wasn't necessarily what we would call socially acceptable today by segregating low-income residents from other residents, but it did generate an enormous positive effect on the city's economic development.

Yes, the city made a mistake by completely bulldozing the city during urban renewal. But honestly, if they hadn't Norfolk would have been much worse off. Most of those "historic" structures that were demolished were deteriorating, disgusting, dangerous slums that were just falling apart or wharfs. Urban renewal was meant to attract new businesses and residents into the city and make it a safer place, and, in that sense, it did. Consider the successes of urban renewal in Norfolk: the Tides moved into Downtown, many businesses, employing thousands moved into the city, Nauticus and the USS Wisconsin were brought in, Scope, the list goes on. What was gained from demolishing those unsanitary slums and structures far surpassed what was lost.

I don't know if Virginia Beach even has subsidized housing, but you definitely do not wanna be around the apartments near Lynnhaven Elementary after dark...