The Avenue

[dubone]

so they were trying to build a tower out of string? good for the city permitting department for demanding better!

[atlrvr]

Well.....they haven't been known to look outside the box really.....I'm not sure what it will do to The Vue, or any new techniques, though I'm not saying that The Avenue was a cutting edge design.

[monsoon]

was it a cheap-skate construction method, or is it just an unproven construction method? does that have any impact on the likelihood that the Vue's construction method would be approved?

This is what I know about it.

We are talking about pre-stressed concrete. Pre-stressed concrete differs from regular re-enforced concrete in that the steel within the concrete is placed into tension to give the concrete more tensile strength. This allows longer thinner supports than you would otherwise see in use. The other option to pre-stressed concrete is to use steel, but steel construction has gotten very expensive and that is why you don't see as much of it anymore. The Chinese are consuming huge amount of steel which has increased it's costs to beyond that what many developers are willing to consider so that is why you are now seeing so many construction designs that only use concrete as the primary building material.

There are two types of pre-stressed concrete. Post-tensioned and Pre-tensioned.

Pre-tensioned concrete is the most common type. The steel rods or cables are placed under tension, the concrete is poured, and once it is cured, the rods are anchored to the concrete placing it under tension. This is a cost effective method to use instead of steel, but the members have to be constructed in a factory and shipped to the location. This limits their size and does increase the cost. There is a factory that builds these things just up the street across from the Asian Mall on Sugar Creek.

Post-tension concrete is like the pre-tensioned stuff except that the rods are placed into tension AFTER the concrete is poured. Because of this, the members can be made longer and bigger since they don't have to be transported, and the cost is less. The downside is that it takes a high level of skill to do it properly in this environment and my guess is this is why the building dept turned down the request for the skyscraper to be built this way. If the anchor points are not done correctly and grouted to preven corrosion, the building could collapse in the worst case. They probably did not want to take the risk.

Hope this explanation helps.

[dubone]

yes. and yikes.

i'm glad they decided not to take the risk. a high school acquantance of mine died when their condo collapsed in kuala lumpur. if we had a building collapse in charlotte, it would bring an immediate end to our boomlet.

i just noticed that i hit 2500 posts, and i now have a star!!!

[cinco]

yes. and yikes.

i'm glad they decided not to take the risk. a high school acquantance of mine died when their condo collapsed in kuala lumpur. if we had a building collapse in charlotte, it would bring an immediate end to our boomlet.

i just noticed that i hit 2500 posts, and i now have a star!!!

cheers, dubone.

[Norm2]

yay for star lol.

[appatone]

Good to hear the about the city stepping up. Congrats dubone, I just noticed that I've been here since Jan. 04 and I'm still a whistle stop. I guess I'm what you would call the quiet type.

[Seabreeze]

haha... what does whistle-stop mean anyways?

[bork]

Talking a good game is a lot different than actually investing in the real estate.

Unlike stocks, it is a lot tougher to find, get under contract, get financing and close on a real estate investment than it is a stock trade. Although banks have been a bit more adventuresome in their lending practices, they still aren't going to lend money for the purchase of a home that doesn't reflect comparable values. Also, people won't just panic and dump their houses on the market if they're currently occupied. They need a place to live and will continue to pay the mortgage and stay where they're at if not offered a fair price for their house.

All that being said, if there are a significant amount of speculators that purchase with loans, then that might cause a problem. At least temporarily while those bankrupted speculators sell out to cut their losses.

Compare real estate to stock investing where any old mook can get a trading account and get themselves into trouble without the banks oversight. I think there is a much, much bigger difference.

I see maybe Vegas and Miami as being a problem, since many of those are second homes and estimates are that 40% of the buyers are speculators. I really think that more than a modest sigh in prices is unlikely to happen in Charlotte. Buying to occupy is pretty safe, IMHO.

Yeah, but if there's a decline of, oh say, $5k on the value of some of these under-construction properties - what's to stop people from walking with the money on the table. Happened all the time in the late 80's.

[PwC Keith]

Sales on the Avenue start the 7th or 8th. Anyone heard if they've finalized prices yet? I have a feeling they are going to increase them to match the other higher priced properties in the area.

[atlrvr]

Then they are going to be sorely disappointed by the lack of sales considering that it is an inferior product.

My opinion is that units will sell for $275-$325 psf.

[PwC Keith]

Then they are going to be sorely disappointed by the lack of sales considering that it is an inferior product.

My opinion is that units will sell for $275-$325 psf.

I don't know necessarily think that it will be an 'inferior' product. There really isn't that big of a gap between the Vue and the EpiCentre. A few differences but not enough to say inferior. Most wouldn't notice the difference unless you told them.

[SmellyCat]

I don't know necessarily think that it will be an 'inferior' product. There really isn't that big of a gap between the Vue and the EpiCentre. A few differences but not enough to say inferior. Most wouldn't notice the difference unless you told them.

I think you should give condo shoppers a little more credit...at these lofty prices, I think the target audience is discerning enough to do their homework on the differences between the products, because we're not talking about speculative flippers in Miami here. I belive most of these people will actually live in their units. There should be some material price differentiation in the market.

[atlrvr]

I'm in no way bashing the building. A very good friend of mine is going to buy there (and live in it) if he is chosen high enough in the lottery to get the unit he wants. But he also realizes that by paying less, he isn't getting a "top of the line building". If Avenue ends up priced at $350-$400 psf then he he will settle with a smaller unit at The Citdain, EpiCentre, or whatever highrise Furman does next.

I think it's great what Avenue offers, because they make it realistic for the middle-class to live downtown. Their cost structure allows this kind of value, but if they seek to maximize profit, then they will significantly erode that target market base that has made them so successful.

[ElricSeven]

I'm in no way bashing the building. A very good friend of mine is going to buy there (and live in it) if he is chosen high enough in the lottery to get the unit he wants. But he also realizes that by paying less, he isn't getting a "top of the line building". If Avenue ends up priced at $350-$400 psf then he he will settle with a smaller unit at The Citdain, EpiCentre, or whatever highrise Furman does next.

I think it's great what Avenue offers, because they make it realistic for the middle-class to live downtown. Their cost structure allows this kind of value, but if they seek to maximize profit, then they will significantly erode that target market base that has made them so successful.

I'm just wondering if anyone can tell the difference. It isn't like the building will fall down or it is anything that they can see past the well-manicured veneer of drywall, paint and tile, right?

[atlrvr]

I suppose it's how much a person is aware....

Things like hollow-core doors, towel-racks attached to drywall instead of studs, May-Tag appliances as opposed to GE Profile, extra sheets of drywall instead of true accustical-dampening insulation.

I'm sure there are people who will move from a vinyl-box in the suburbs who think it is the greatest thing known to man, and there would be others that are sticklers over such matters.....

I have no way of knowing how much of a premium people will put on different quality upgrades, and I'm sure it changes person by person....

My whole point is that Novare is known for producing a good value product, much like a Honda....but people shopping a Honda Accord aren't going to confuse it with a Mercedes E-Class, and certainly not many are going to chose the Accord over the E if both are priced at $55k.

[ElricSeven]

I suppose it's how much a person is aware....

Things like hollow-core doors, towel-racks attached to drywall instead of studs, May-Tag appliances as opposed to GE Profile, extra sheets of drywall instead of true accustical-dampening insulation.

I'm sure there are people who will move from a vinyl-box in the suburbs who think it is the greatest thing known to man, and there would be others that are sticklers over such matters.....

I have no way of knowing how much of a premium people will put on different quality upgrades, and I'm sure it changes person by person....

My whole point is that Novare is known for producing a good value product, much like a Honda....but people shopping a Honda Accord aren't going to confuse it with a Mercedes E-Class, and certainly not many are going to chose the Accord over the E if both are priced at $55k.

I'm guessing that most people won't notice but a few details, and considering the price of most of the Vue is about double per square foot, they'll not care very much. The things I'm guessing they'll notice are if it is too hot or cold, or falls into disrepair easily, or is too noisy. They'll also notice the aesthetic things, but the Avenue people have been careful to match to meet the standard of granite, tile and wood that everyone insists on these days. I'll be curious to see the differences once they different buildings are completed to see if I would be able to pick out many differences.

Where would you rate construction on Courtyard compared to the Vue and Avenue? It seems to me that Furman projects might just represent the best values of all. Poured-in-place concrete for floors at least, a decent range of selections on finishes. I guess if you're in a unit in the back, though, you've got some skimpy windows.

[atlrvr]

As predicted, Avenue changed it's physical street address from 128 W. 5th, to 210 N. Church St.

Nothing too exciting, except that it shows what a marketable name in Charlotte, N. Church is becoming.

[dubone]

I think North Church has been a marketable street location for at least five years. I was surprised Novare didn't work that into their name or address in the first place.

[UrbanCharlotte]

Well as a side note they were pouring in cement colums weds. This, and trademark, are moving forward very nicely and will be going vert. soon.

[dman379]

Someone shared an "insider" Avenue Price Sheet from their Real Estate Agent with me today and the 2BR/1272sq. ft units #02 and #14 are allegedly starting at 422k and 401k, respectively. That's $332 and $315/sq. ft, respectively. Considering that these are the 2 premier units, the price points still seem considerably higher than the ranges advertised early-on. TradeMark sounds like a steal now when you consider that the corner unit A on the 10th floor of TradeMark is 40 more sq. feet and sold for only 386k ($295/sq. ft). That doesn't account for the bigger balcony at TradeMark nor TradeMark's HOA dues which are almost half of that of the Avenue. I guess when you factor in the $20k for the additional parking space at TradeMark though, it helps to even them out, but I still give the better value award to TradeMark.

Just goes to show us what a difference a year makes - appreciation at work in the Queen City!

[sleightofhand]

Wow, I guess they're going to push their prices right up towards The Vue's.

[atlrvr]

If someone kind find me a high-floor corner unit at the Vue for $332 psf then I'll start packing up today.

[sleightofhand]

If someone kind find me a high-floor corner unit at the Vue for $332 psf then I'll start packing up today.

You and me both brother.

I'm really curious to see if the Avenue will sale out within a month. Or as soon as all the people who were selected in the raffle have a chance to buy.

[dman379]

I called the Avenue this afternoon and was met with 2 rather large disappointments:

1) I was not selected in the first round of the lottery which was conducted this afternoon.

2) The price points for 2BR units are across the board much higher than I expected. These are the ranges they gave me from the 11th floor and up:

Floorplan #01: 360-430k

Floorplan #02: 420-490k

Floorplan #15: 355-395k

Floorplan #14: 401-470k

Floorplan #07: 380-465k

This time last year, a press release stated that two-bedroom units would range from just under 1,100 to slightly less than 1,300 square feet and sell from the $260,000s to $320,000s. Funny how a year later there isn't a single two bedroom unit even being offered within that range!