The Promenade At Chenal

[ndark]

When you guys put it that way it makes me feel dumb. I shoulda been able to figure that out.

Thanks.

[EJC]

You can email me and i will show how i know.

Please tell me you also know of a few more restaurants that will join the fray.

[Architect]

You can email me and i will show how i know.

Chenal - I'd love to but your "Private Message" option on the forum is not enabled in your profile. Perhaps you can send me a PM?

[Architect]

My comments were based on my own observations, which don't include following Apple. I'm not a brand loyalist except for the Pittsburgh Steelers. But, even if they made hardware, I might have to take a pause.

I'm not an Apple-hater by any stretch... they make beautifully designed products. I'm a fan of classic modern and the design of Apple's hardware resonates with me. Right now, I don't own any Apple products. If look alone was my only criteria, I'd own many Apple products. I'm on the sideline for this whole music / video / games / internet / GPS / cell phone convergence thing. When I am ready to play, as a consumer, I stand to benefit. These technologies have major year-over-year improvements. Yesterday, Toshiba announce 240 GB 1.8 inch HDD.

If the Apple Store concept is as effective a tool as your research claims it to be, then we'll be seeing other companies emulate it. I'll look for that.

Turbo - thanks for the feedback. I wasn't trying to pass judgement on whether or not you liked their products (which is obviously immaterial), but rather I was perplexed that your assessment of the success of their retail outlets was counter to the general consensus. Regardless, companies are always trying to emulate Apple's business model, but it often proves elusive. One example - Sony's retail outlets - generally underwhelming and considered a failure. So are Nokia's.

[Chenal]

Chenal - I'd love to but your "Private Message" option on the forum is not enabled in your profile. Perhaps you can send me a PM?

I tried, but continue to get an error message. Also tried to go through the moderator forum and received the same message. I made an email you can use at [email protected]

[comreguy]

I was at Cantina Laredo from 9 p.m. till 10:30 p.m. last night (a Tuesday). The parking lot was full. Not just in front of Cantina Lareado either... Pei Wei and Starbucks were full bore. I had the enjoyment of watching a early twenties woman run out of Cantina Laredo with chipmunk cheeks. She tried to retain some shred of her dignity as she projected what was probably too much margarita into the shrubs.

The place emptied out by 10:30 p.m. This is only because the restaurants close. I'm certain because the development backs up to a neighborhood, this will never be an entertainment district. It is clear, however, Midtowne is enjoyed by a youthful, affluent crowd.

Regardless of who you see walking out of the store, if you draw a 3-5 mile ring around University and Markham, you will see that the income, household income, ethnicity, etc. do not fit in with the Apple model. That being said, shops have been doing well in the area inspite of the demos (save Lewis and Clark, which is poorly merchandised and operated). In today's economic climate, retailers are not taking flyers on locations that don't fit specifically into their growth model.

Ask the developers of Park Avenue about the interest in their project and current leasing progress if you don't believe me. In 2007 they were on fire with interest from tenants. In 2008, they are lucky to get a national retailer to return their call.

[Aporkalypse]

Chenal, any info on the large triangular space adjacent to Promenade at Chenal? Is anyone looking at building on that space?

Also, there are rumors floating around now about a Cheesecake Factory going into Rogers and that one was looked at for Promenade at Chenal and they aren't going in, any truth to that?

Glad to see PC is getting an Anthropologie. That's a good demographic for the area.

[Chenal]

I tried, but continue to get an error message. Also tried to go through the moderator forum and received the same message. I made an email you can use at [email protected]

Should have been @yahoo.com

[Chenal]

Chenal, any info on the large triangular space adjacent to Promenade at Chenal? Is anyone looking at building on that space?

Also, there are rumors floating around now about a Cheesecake Factory going into Rogers and that one was looked at for Promenade at Chenal and they aren't going in, any truth to that?

Glad to see PC is getting an Anthropologie. That's a good demographic for the area.

If you are talking about the property behind the center, no there is not anyone looking at it. That was the original location of Dillards, but when they backed out, that land was not purchased by Red. If you are talking about the building pad at the corner of Chenal and LaGrande, that has been purchased by Regions Bank.

Cheesecake Factory is in the same shape as Newks. The franchisee has not finalized any agreements with the corporate for Little Rock. I think he has worked it out for the Rogers area and is in lease talks with General Growth about Pinn. Hills.

[george]

If you are talking about the property behind the center, no there is not anyone looking at it. That was the original location of Dillards, but when they backed out, that land was not purchased by Red. If you are talking about the building pad at the corner of Chenal and LaGrande, that has been purchased by Regions Bank.

Cheesecake Factory is in the same shape as Newks. The franchisee has not finalized any agreements with the corporate for Little Rock. I think he has worked it out for the Rogers area and is in lease talks with General Growth about Pinn. Hills.

Cheesecake Factory does not franchise they are all corporate owned.

[Chenal]

Cheesecake Factory does not franchise they are all corporate owned.

You're right, i was given wrong information.

[bchris02]

If you are talking about the property behind the center, no there is not anyone looking at it. That was the original location of Dillards, but when they backed out, that land was not purchased by Red. If you are talking about the building pad at the corner of Chenal and LaGrande, that has been purchased by Regions Bank.

Cheesecake Factory is in the same shape as Newks. The franchisee has not finalized any agreements with the corporate for Little Rock. I think he has worked it out for the Rogers area and is in lease talks with General Growth about Pinn. Hills.

So Cheesecake Factory and Newks are still possible but just not finalized? What are their chances of coming vs. not? Cheesecake Factory is something we have wanted here in LR for a long time. If it doesn't go in Chenal, I don't know where else it could go.

If NWA is getting Cheesecake Factory, barring extreme economic catastrophe, its pretty much inevitable that we should within the next few years.

[Architect]

If you are talking about the property behind the center, no there is not anyone looking at it. That was the original location of Dillards, but when they backed out, that land was not purchased by Red. If you are talking about the building pad at the corner of Chenal and LaGrande, that has been purchased by Regions Bank.

Cheesecake Factory is in the same shape as Newks. The franchisee has not finalized any agreements with the corporate for Little Rock. I think he has worked it out for the Rogers area and is in lease talks with General Growth about Pinn. Hills.

I would be quite surprised to see Cheesecake Factory locate in NWA prior to Little Rock - that would be a very small market for them. However, if this does come to pass, I believe it would be more indicative of the presence of a very large-scale, regional development (Pinnacle Hills) than it would be validation of the market. In other words, the decision would be grounded in the development more-so than the market.

This is where Little Rock really got hurt by the collapse of the Simon development and subsequent fragmentation of retail markets. Cheesecake Factory can't find that in Little Rock. Midtown is high-end, but very small - though it bookends the retail epicenter of Greater Little Rock (there is also no available space). Chenal Promenade is nice, but its not very big, its remote, and as such, its not really a "regional" development. Park Avenue would seem to be the most logical choice, but its not yet completed.

[Architect]

Regardless of who you see walking out of the store, if you draw a 3-5 mile ring around University and Markham, you will see that the income, household income, ethnicity, etc. do not fit in with the Apple model. That being said, shops have been doing well in the area inspite of the demos (save Lewis and Clark, which is poorly merchandised and operated). In today's economic climate, retailers are not taking flyers on locations that don't fit specifically into their growth model.

I agree that Midtown isn't the best location for Apple, but I disagree about the level of importance you assume about the market in the 3-5 mile radius. First, I doubt that is of little concern to retailers - it bookends a regional (and growing) high-end retail district. Furthermore, within the 3-5 mile radius that you denote is the state's highest income neighborhood - the Heights.

Ask the developers of Park Avenue about the interest in their project and current leasing progress if you don't believe me. In 2007 they were on fire with interest from tenants. In 2008, they are lucky to get a national retailer to return their call.

I would agree that the rapidly changing nationwide market conditions are likely stalling developments such as this...apparently (and to my surprise), there is evidence of this at the COMPLETED Chenal Promenade, with the announced delayed openings, etc.

[bchris02]

I would be quite surprised to see Cheesecake Factory locate in NWA prior to Little Rock - that would be a very small market for them. However, if this does come to pass, I believe it would be more indicative of the presence of a very large-scale, regional development (Pinnacle Hills) than it would be validation of the market. In other words, the decision would be grounded in the development more-so than the market.

Well they are NWA. They have the momentum. I am really surprised Apple didn't locate in NWA first to be honest.

I think you are right though, had Summit have been built, we would already have all these tenants. I think that is a blunder that will take LR decades to recover from.

[Aporkalypse]

Well they are NWA. They have the momentum. I am really surprised Apple didn't locate in NWA first to be honest.

I think you are right though, had Summit have been built, we would already have all these tenants. I think that is a blunder that will take LR decades to recover from.

NWA has lost the momentum. Restaurants there are closing left and right and the economy is struggling. LR has a much larger draw area and higher local incomes.

PHP is finished. Promenade at Chenal is still largely vacant and we probably won't see it approach capacity until the spring. If Cheesecake Factory is going in at this development, any smart businessperson would delay opening until spring when other businesses are open. I think this is even more true with the remote location.

Now if they were looking to build in the open pad at Pleasant Ridge or there was one big enough at Midtowne and that was considered a suitable location, I think we'd see it built now. That's just not the case. I have to admit I expected Park Avenue to be get the CF, but demographics at PC are had to turn down.

[comreguy]

I agree that Midtown isn't the best location for Apple, but I disagree about the level of importance you assume about the market in the 3-5 mile radius. First, I doubt that is of little concern to retailers - it bookends a regional (and growing) high-end retail district. Furthermore, within the 3-5 mile radius that you denote is the state's highest income neighborhood - the Heights.

I would agree that the rapidly changing nationwide market conditions are likely stalling developments such as this...apparently (and to my surprise), there is evidence of this at the COMPLETED Chenal Promenade, with the announced delayed openings, etc.

I've been in retail for 10 years, with the majority of that in real estate site selection. Demographics plays a large role. For Apple, they will likely do one store in Little Rock. So, demographics won't be limited to 3-5 miles as I stated earlier and probably will be focused more regionally. I don't think you can argue that Little Rock has a lower demographic than the majority of markets that Apple currently has an outlet in.

But, I am very conservative in my thinking, and am an avid Apple supporter and have purchased several products from them in their stores elsewhere. I've simply learned through experience to be pessimistic when underground announcements about exciting retailers come about. More often than not it's someone getting caught up in the hype and not reality.

[Architect]

I've been in retail for 10 years, with the majority of that in real estate site selection. Demographics plays a large role. For Apple, they will likely do one store in Little Rock. So, demographics won't be limited to 3-5 miles as I stated earlier and probably will be focused more regionally. I don't think you can argue that Little Rock has a lower demographic than the majority of markets that Apple currently has an outlet in.

But, I am very conservative in my thinking, and am an avid Apple supporter and have purchased several products from them in their stores elsewhere. I've simply learned through experience to be pessimistic when underground announcements about exciting retailers come about. More often than not it's someone getting caught up in the hype and not reality.

I clearly defer to your expertise here! But yes, certainly the majority of the demographics of Apple's markets are higher than Little Rock's - my earlier comment was about the fact that they have opened a few stores in smaller and less affluent markets than Little Rock, which is why I was hopeful that the would eventually locate here. I concur that they would never consider more than one location in the market.

[turboturtle]

Regardless of who you see walking out of the store, if you draw a 3-5 mile ring around University and Markham, you will see that the income, household income, ethnicity, etc. do not fit in with the Apple model.

I've been in retail for 10 years, with the majority of that in real estate site selection. Demographics plays a large role. For Apple, they will likely do one store in Little Rock. So, demographics won't be limited to 3-5 miles as I stated earlier and probably will be focused more regionally. I don't think you can argue that Little Rock has a lower demographic than the majority of markets that Apple currently has an outlet in.

Comreguy,

Welcome to our little piece of the internets... It is great to add knowledgeable folks to our conversation. You're going to make us better informed.

Where Apple locates is not of much concern to me. It raises the bar for everyone in Little Rock. I plan to visit it, at least once, wherever it goes.

I want to point out that you make conflicting comments about the significance of the 3 - 5 mile demographic. First, you argue that Midtowne is not a good location because the 3 - 5 mile demographics aren't favorable to Apple's site selection criterion. In your subsequent post you point out that, in Little Rock, their consideration won't be 3-5 mile demographics, that there will be a more regional focus. This is something I agree with.

Any retailer looking at the Little Rock market with a regional retail focus, should know that the Markham and University corridor is the primary regional retail center for the region, currently and historically. This is due to existence of Park Plaza, Midtowne, Sears and the future Park Avenue.

Look at a state map. Pretend you're throwing darts and the bulls-eye is the center of the state. If you land your dart in the center of the bulls-eye, you will hit Markham and University. The critical infrastructure access is in place and there are not very many folks in Arkansas who don't readily know where is the Markham and University intersection in Little Rock. There would certainly be a huge difference than those who know where is Chenal and Rahling Road in Little Rock.

I know folks who do / have done real estate site selection in Little Rock. The standard 3-5 mile demographics studies are often problematic to apply to our market. This is in part because of the stark divide in socio-economic conditions north and south of I-630, as well as the linear western expansion of Little Rock. A 5 mile radius around PC is going to come up with a higher average income, but a lot of trees as well. I think this makes it difficult for national tenants to assess our market and where the best location is for them.

I know the realities are that Markham and University may someday lose this crown. I don't think, however, it will be lost to PC, largely due to the difference in distance to interstate access. When/if Park Avenue opens, it will take a lot to unseat the midtown corridor.

Edited September 12, 2008 by turboturtle

[LRguy21]

so is apple in the works?

[Architect]

so is apple in the works?

Purportedly they have executed their lease for the Promenade at Chenal, opening in March.

[jnholmes]

I understand all the speculation, but Apple STILL has the Promenade listed as the location of its first Little Rock retail store. To be honest, it surprises me that Apple would have already posted the store on its website. But, I think that if the store had been cancelled they would remove it from their site.

[Aporkalypse]

If all of the stores we are told are to open in March do open in March, the center will fill in very nicely and we'll see the outparcels developed soon afterwards.

[comreguy]

Comreguy,

Welcome to our little piece of the internets... It is great to add knowledgeable folks to our conversation. You're going to make us better informed.

Where Apple locates is not of much concern to me. It raises the bar for everyone in Little Rock. I plan to visit it, at least once, wherever it goes.

I want to point out that you make conflicting comments about the significance of the 3 - 5 mile demographic. First, you argue that Midtowne is not a good location because the 3 - 5 mile demographics aren't favorable to Apple's site selection criterion. In your subsequent post you point out that, in Little Rock, their consideration won't be 3-5 mile demographics, that there will be a more regional focus. This is something I agree with.

Any retailer looking at the Little Rock market with a regional retail focus, should know that the Markham and University corridor is the primary regional retail center for the region, currently and historically. This is due to existence of Park Plaza, Midtowne, Sears and the future Park Avenue.

Look at a state map. Pretend you're throwing darts and the bulls-eye is the center of the state. If you land your dart in the center of the bulls-eye, you will hit Markham and University. The critical infrastructure access is in place and there are not very many folks in Arkansas who don't readily know where is the Markham and University intersection in Little Rock. There would certainly be a huge difference than those who know where is Chenal and Rahling Road in Little Rock.

I know folks who do / have done real estate site selection in Little Rock. The standard 3-5 mile demographics studies are often problematic to apply to our market. This is in part because of the stark divide in socio-economic conditions north and south of I-630, as well as the linear western expansion of Little Rock. A 5 mile radius around PC is going to come up with a higher average income, but a lot of trees as well. I think this makes it difficult for national tenants to assess our market and where the best location is for them.

I know the realities are that Markham and University may someday lose this crown. I don't think, however, it will be lost to PC, largely due to the difference in distance to interstate access. When/if Park Avenue opens, it will take a lot to unseat the midtown corridor.

Thanks for the welcome. I enjoy the discussion on this board, and the clearly educated people that post here. I hope I can add something, although I can't promise that what I try to add is an addition at all.

I did make conflicting comments, and I hope I backed the second comment up with good info so you could understand my line of thinking. I originally related my 3-5 demos comment on a typical retail market. After some conjecture, I revised my statement.

Little Rock is the most difficult retail market I have ever encountered. I think you make a great assessment in your review of the market. Look at Chenal and the hodge podge of small power centers and large format retailers scattered around the road. Promenade and Midtowne and Pleasant Ridge and Shackleford further divide (and confuse) the market.

Furthermore, with Benton/Bryant coming into their own, it also impacts the demand for retail, especially at Shackleford and Col Glenn.

[WLRDore]

Little Rock is the most difficult retail market I have ever encountered. I think you make a great assessment in your review of the market. Look at Chenal and the hodge podge of small power centers and large format retailers scattered around the road. Promenade and Midtowne and Pleasant Ridge and Shackleford further divide (and confuse) the market.

Comreguy, do you think this "hodge podge" is due to the lack of support from those in the local community or do you think it is caused by something else? I've often thought that there were a sufficient amount of high income households in Little Rock. But perhaps a rather big problem is that these households are all spread so far apart that we can never have a truly good location for a lifestyle center or a strong concentrated area for growth and development.