Downtown Raleigh Condos

[cophead567]

I'm in a condo on fayetteville st and its great. the only problem is parking, i have to be creative with the decks and on street parking, or i can pay around 140 for a reserved spot. i heard about a residential permit you can get but for some reason its not available for me, if anyone has any info on this, PLEASE let me know. its not a big deal though, i mean what city doesnt have parking issues?

its clear that downtown is livelier from 9-5 but after that, i think downtown is what you make it. things are taking a turn for the better and places are staying open or new places are opening up all the time that constanly keep it fresh. i'm enjoying it immensely.

[Jones_]

I live just beyond downtown in an industrial building with condos, and before that rented an apartment on Martin Street by the bus station. One thing people forget about prices of real estate downtown is that the amenity of land, often completey occupied by the building is included in the price per square foot, where for single family homes lot price is appraised separately. I paid 175/sqft in Dec 2003 for my place. The 300/sqft units have lots of stuff most people don't need like marble counter tops and stainless appliances that do add 10-20k to the price of a unit. Price of materials and price of land lately keep the prices in this range. Developers could build nice units without all the standard McCondo (thanx CptlApts) perks and hit a lower dollar per sqft and still be in the center of town but to date have not.

Also I commute outward bound to near Highwoods, and it is nice. The inbound traffic is paying for their cheaper place to live with a commute three times mine...mine is ten minutes from Maywood Ave to Highwoods. Plus a cab home from bars on the weekend is less than 5 bucks! Many folks, here Chiefjojo, NCwebguy, can walk home from bars.

[Justin6882]

I live in a condo downtown (Person Pointe). I was very lucky to buy when I did as it wasn't anymore expenisve than a comparably sized house somewhere else. All my friends (early 20s) all wish they could live downtown as well - its great to be able to go out and walk home. Not only that, but I walk to shows at Memorial Auditorium, Moore Square, etc...and only have to walk a block to events they have on Fayetteville Street. It really is much better than living in the burbs (my opinion) as I have done both.

[Eastwestrob]

LOL I can afford my duplex near the Six Forks/Wake Forest Road intersection just inside the beltline but I think that's about the closest to downtown living that I'll be able to afford for a while until prices adjust (or I win the lottery)

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

I don't expect prices to ever go down in the downtown market. Only up for sure. I think downtown living would be great and I wish I could afford it but I can't so I live in the suburbs instead. I appreciate the input from those of you who live there. It's not exactly that I think downtown is not worthy of the current prices , its just that I feel the current prices have been set based more on speculation of what downtown will be like in 5 years and not what it currentlly is today. A lot of people are speculating on what will happen downtown so I can understand how this is reflected in the condo market there. Its just that under todays conditions I don't think the prices are warranted, but that is just my humble opinion. But that doesn't really matter becasue the prices have been set by the developers, people are buying them and as downtown becomes more vibrant in the years to come and the condo prices will skyrocket. I'm sure 5 years from now the thought of a condo going for $250K will be a dream....but right now I don't think its warratned, but I understand the reasoning behind the pricing I guess.

[RaleighRob]

Everyone keeps saying that "Once the prices come down". Personally I don't see that for a number of reasons.

[Jones_]

I think its time to make another downtown for the restofus! Like festivus. Lets grid up the streets over by the NC equipment company....might have to forcefully take over Valentines property, but oh well. It is near the tracks so we can have a transit stop once that comes online. We have a coffee shop and several bars, a framing shop, a salon, and lots of food, Indian, Sub Conscious, Arbys, Snoopys.....we just need an office building componet...maybe raze one of the gas stations for say an 8 story glassy thing, and maybe some more like that around Gorman/Hillsborough...build some more new townhomes like the ones Between Gorman and the Wilmont, convert the Wilmont into condos that go for around 120k each.....put a smalll grocery where the laundrymat used to be, and presto...our downtown will be the envy the rich folks infesting Glenwood South.....I am actually partly serious about this approach and mind frame....

[ncwebguy]

I think there could be (already are?) several downtown "sideurbs" in Raleigh:

- Hillsborough/Dan Allen/Gorman (with an extention to the Royal Building and beyond) mentioned by Jones 133

- Hillsborough/Morgan/Pullen area (including the St. Mary's apartments, IHOP, Jade Garden, bicycle shop, Jackpot, etc)

- Saunders North/South Street, from east of Boylan to west of Dawson, from Cabarrus to Lake Wheeler/South Saunders (could eventually merge with next one)

- Maywood from South Saunders to Lake Wheeler - Farmers market nearby, a lot (seemingly) unused industiral, etc. The rennovated mill condo building seems to be full or close to it.

- North Person/Seaboard - both sides of Peace college, north of Peace.

- New Bern/Edenton, west of Person through Poole Road interchange and beyond.

- Blount Street/Shaw University - right at "downtown limits", this area has its own character. It would be nice if it spread to Site One and the redevlopment of the lots around Lincoln Theater.

Glenwood South has graduated from "sideurb" to "downtown district" in the last six months or so. The area east of West/west of Capitol/Dawson will hopefully add more connections.

The next "ring" could include Five Points, Wake Forest/Atlantic/Whitaker Mill/Raleigh Bonded warehouse, South Saunders/Wilmington south of 440, etc.

[JDC]

I live in a condo downtown (Person Pointe). I was very lucky to buy when I did as it wasn't anymore expenisve than a comparably sized house somewhere else. All my friends (early 20s) all wish they could live downtown as well - its great to be able to go out and walk home. Not only that, but I walk to shows at Memorial Auditorium, Moore Square, etc...and only have to walk a block to events they have on Fayetteville Street. It really is much better than living in the burbs (my opinion) as I have done both.

[ChiefJoJo]

N&O article about the growth in downtown condos and the concern of whether it will last.

Is it just me or does it seem like they are just rehashing the same old story we're heard before. The only thing that has changed recently is Empire's move to office space for 209 Davie instead of condos, but that was due to city regs and not demand. THe story: "The market is hot, but there are concerns about prices and demand."

Well of course there are always concerns when you talk about the economy... interesting there was no mention of the affordable units at Tucker St (and elsewhere), which start at $155k and are a practically across the street from the overpriced Paramount. Given the demographics and economic change we're seeing in te US trending towards urban lifestyles, gas prices, global warming, and other efficiency-related issues, and throw in the local pop growth and job market projections for the foreseeable future, I think downtown will continue to prosper, and as developers observe the market, prices will moderate.

[DanRNC]

Typical N&O doom and gloom. Weren't they the ones who predicted the death of DT Raleigh about 5 years ago?

[Jones_]

There are so many things wrong about and with that article......Paramount is crazy expensive...for some reason agents and buyers there still seem to think it is the one and only new building with some awesome unique set of amenities....wrong....nice yes....worth close to 350 a sqft or appreciating 200k in less than 5 years?? nfw.

Also I do not know anyone selling their downtown bungalow for a downtown condo....choice one seems to be downtown or not...choice two is single family or condo...

I am still angry with buildings that let investors reserve all the units....all the current marketing for the RBC condos is now soley to benefit those investors with reservations who only intend to flip their unit.....these people do nothing to help downtown or the people who actually want to live here....there are banks to back projects with actual demand....this spec bs creates flase demand and pushes out alot of people...

your're right Jojo....Empires decision about not building condos did not have anything to do with demand, but the N&O can't resist the chance to sensationalize...

The best point of the article was definitely the warning to investors....

[RaleighRob]

And they also seem to ignore one other thing: even if demand for luxury condos downtown goes down, that does NOT necessarily mean the demand for housing overall would go down. I'd imagine, in fact, that demand for low & mid-priced apartments would stay strong, or even go up.

[ncwebguy]

Ideally, the N&O's content and advertising are seperate entities, but at the end of the day, everyone knows ads pay the bills.

RBC Plaza, West at North, etc. purchase a few ads, but the N&O sells a *lot* more ads to big developers of tract housing near the 540 arc.

Why is "developers who do their research and know who they're building for will do fine" newsworthy for condos, but not houses? Because the majority of single family housing development devleopers know they're building for the lowest common denominator, planning, connectivity, etc. be dammed.

Driving out to Greenville on Saturday was an eye-opener. In eastern Wake County near the 64 bypass, there were subdivisions surrounded by fields (for now). Residents can't walk or bike to the store, work, etc. When gas goes to $3/gallon, they start complaining. When it gets to $4, the condos will start to look a lot more attractive.

Why can't the N&O accept the fact a fair number of people want to walk to restaurants not because it is trendy but because it is convenient? Would anyone write "so far, demand for apartments and houses is steady?"

[nadcock]

So today I saw part of the problem for higher downtown prices in action. I went to reserve a unit in 712 Tucker to actually buy and live there when what I would say half the crowd there seemed like they are buying for investment to flip. It was a mad house and when everyone was huddled together in the sales office I heard one person say they wanted to buy 5 units! Fortunately the sellers would not allow this but I also saw some top name realtors who will remain unamed here but market themselves as "Downtown realtors", have most of the projects around here under their name, and have the initials AC buying units! I could not tell you how infurriated I was at what these people are doing to this market. Thats capitalism yes but sad to see it possibly hurting the growth of this new DT revitalization.

Also, while 712 seemed to be the most promising pricing for young professionals overall I think it is pretty much the same as everything else considering the interior amenities and building floorplans. It definately comes in under the rest but you get what you pay for.

[Jones_]

So today I saw part of the problem for higher downtown prices in action. I went to reserve a unit in 712 Tucker to actually buy and live there when what I would say half the crowd there seemed like they are buying for investment to flip. It was a mad house and when everyone was huddled together in the sales office I heard one person say they wanted to buy 5 units! Fortunately the sellers would not allow this but I also saw some top name realtors who will remain unamed here but market themselves as "Downtown realtors", have most of the projects around here under their name, and have the initials AC buying units! I could not tell you how infurriated I was at what these people are doing to this market. Thats capitalism yes but sad to see it possibly hurting the growth of this new DT revitalization.

Also, while 712 seemed to be the most promising pricing for young professionals overall I think it is pretty much the same as everything else considering the interior amenities and building floorplans. It definately comes in under the rest but you get what you pay for.

[c_harmons]

I was at 712 Tucker this afternoon too. But if you read the reservation deposit it is pretty clear about keeping people that want to buy and flip out. It requires the buyer to sell back to the developer at the original sales price if they try and flip it the first 18 months (other than for real reasons like job transfer, moving to another place, etc).

I actually liked the finishes. Frankly I was surprised I could get stainless steel applicances, wood floors, granite tops, and tile floors for under $200,000.

I did talk with the developer outside and he said they are taking three weeks to see how much interest there is. He expressed some concern that the downtown demand for condos may not be as big as everyone thinks. He hoped it was but he said many of the developers downtown thought the jury was still out.

[paco]

So today I saw part of the problem for higher downtown prices in action. I went to reserve a unit in 712 Tucker to actually buy and live there when what I would say half the crowd there seemed like they are buying for investment to flip. It was a mad house and when everyone was huddled together in the sales office I heard one person say they wanted to buy 5 units! Fortunately the sellers would not allow this but I also saw some top name realtors who will remain unamed here but market themselves as "Downtown realtors", have most of the projects around here under their name, and have the initials AC buying units! I could not tell you how infurriated I was at what these people are doing to this market. Thats capitalism yes but sad to see it possibly hurting the growth of this new DT revitalization.

Also, while 712 seemed to be the most promising pricing for young professionals overall I think it is pretty much the same as everything else considering the interior amenities and building floorplans. It definately comes in under the rest but you get what you pay for.

[RALNATIVE]

Amen...driving up prices does nothing to help downtown...not a damn thing....a good flip involves sinking some renovation money into an otherwise falling apart property then selling the sucker....this bs of buying up everthing to drive up demand and prices could stop if say City council set up something in downtown proper to prevent it.....pure capitalism is a cycle of boom and bust, and that is not a good thing (think great depression), although profit incentive must be there or nothing will ever get built...

[Jones_]

One of the things that you guys seem to be forgetting is that the business activity downtown will increase SUBSTANTIALLY in 2-3 years. With RBC and Reynolds towers going up, and all of the other Class A office space becoming available downtown and the surrounding areas, there will be many highly paid people coming to town who will prefer to live close to work, which will mean that a large percentage of these well-heeled young professionals will be buying downtown condos. People like AC and the other "flippers" who are getting in on the action early already know this. The demand for these condos will only continue to increase. It happens in EVERY successful market, and Raleigh is just starting to get a taste of this success. The more Morgan Stanleys that come to town, the better off the condo market will be.

[foodpainter]

I also saw some top name realtors who will remain unamed here but market themselves as "Downtown realtors", have most of the projects around here under their name, and have the initials AC buying units! I could not tell you how infurriated I was at what these people are doing to this market. Thats capitalism yes but sad to see it possibly hurting the growth of this new DT revitalization.

[Jones_]

Wouldn't these realtors be there representing buyers?

[ncwebguy]

Not only that, but with the 1 unit at full price vs. 10 units at 10% down example, it takes *nine* available units out of the market! Operating that way foreces potential buyers to go through flippers who make a commission *and* a profit on each unit sold.

These people are adding no *value* to the product while adding to the *cost*. This could keep the middle class out of the downtown market, or at "best" price them in the smallest, least desierable units.

When people are priced out, demand goes down, developers stop developing new buildings, and downtown growth comes to a screeching halt in a few years.

I hope there are covenants in place to keep units from being turned into rentals during the "holding period".

I think the Lafayette will be sold in such a way to avoid this, and I hope the selling of units in the Nash is handled better.

There are some "rennovation flips" going on east of downtown , but they aren't as "sexy" as the new condo buildings, so they go unnoticed.

[miamiblue]

... Read this about Miami condo speculation and then decide again if speculation is a good thing overall or not.

[Jones_]

There are some "rennovation flips" going on east of downtown , but they aren't as "sexy" as the new condo buildings, so they go unnoticed.