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Downtown Raleigh Condos

Justin6882

By Justin6882
in The NC Triangle

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urbanesq Hamlet

urbanesq

Posted
Posted

I think the condo market will stay healthy in downtown Raleigh for the next few years, but I really wonder if the multi-fmaily (apartment) market isn't where the real profit is going to be. As the sub-prime market collapses, people who shouldn't have been able to afford to buy the homes they're in will undergo foreclosures, and the scar to their credit will take many of them out of the purchaser pool for several years. They've got the live someplace, so one assumes the demand for rental housing will heat up considerably. Hopefully someone will capture some of that demand in a downtown product or two...

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ncwebguy Burg

ncwebguy

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The Wake County tax records don't show any condos owned by a Tom O'Brien (or Obrien) yet.

This fall's college football season will start way before RBC and Bloomsbury are finished, so I guess Coach O'Brien will end up in 510, the Cotton Mill, or the Hudson.

I heard Jeff O'Neil had a place in the Cotton Mill when he played for the Hurricanes, but may have since sold that place.

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Jones_ City

Jones_

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^^I strongly agree with Chiefs words regarding the first article....my comments on the blog seem to have been deleted...too cutting maybe? Dunno....I will post here then in response to the follow up----I am not really sure what point the writer is trying to make, he leaps from a look at suburban sprawl to downtown condo demand dwindling (again) and seems to want to link it to architectural variety or approprtiatness...not sure as I said because the argumentative linkage is completely left out. I can appreciate looking at condo demand and downtown demand in general but remain unimpressed by superimposing artsy language where straight forward analysis with some subjective talk on preferences would suffice.

Back to the first article. The premise is that downtown condo/housing demand is doomed because it is not and never will be the center of the region. This is at best a single component in demand and this only insofar as downtown should be a mega-highrise, ultra-dense high end enclave of the rich. The big head scratcher is that Smith seems to be a proponet of the artsy, creative middle class, working class segment but then bases his argument on the lack of white collars working downtown.....well that might be the case if you wanted pottery barn furnished marble countered beige condos to represent the character of your downtown...and maybe that segment of demand is slacking (probably even), but why does this doom all of downtown?? As far as the reasons offered in the article...."elastic" growth at this point generates demand downtown as we have outgrown our waistband.....long difficult commutes in exchange for more house and a yard that needs upkeep? Ha, I'll take my condo anyday over that. White Collars downtown? Who needs 'em. The look has two components...who you are selling to and what atmosphere you want your downtown to have. I could design a condo with inustrial chic or retro charm that Ann-Cabel would not know how to market. I used to live in an apartment in our little downtown that would fetch 120k as a condo for its 600 sqft and had things like concrete countertops, well finished plank floors, creative hidden closets and storage, open kitchen storage (i.e. no cabinets, but butler shelving instead) and mostly open space...no foyers, no coat closets, nothing that transplants that 5, 4 and a door experience downtown...bottom line is we have had decent developers downtown but some new ones can and should step to the plate....Smith seems to be poised to suggest this but then does not.....component two is that no definition of what downtown should be has been nailed down as a point of reference.....your white collars eating at Sullivans and Nanas might like to be 30 stories up, might like the floor plans at West, but many others prefer something like the Pohlig Box Factory in Richmond. Not only is this very different design wise, and thus pulling in a whole new group of people downtown but the scale is very different...four stories, people friendly...imagine that. (historic too, hmm)....some people may be turned off by parking garages, skyscrapers and constant noise...maybe our downtown should not be that and is not really destined to be that...maybe it is. Aiming for a smaller scale though completely utilized dowtnown covered with small stores (Rob does a great job at discussing this on New Raleigh) and buildings that you can open your windown and talk to your neighbor walking their dog on the street might open up a whole huge demand segment untapped to date. Amenities, well, sure, everyone moving in now knows the current situation, the pioneer phase is one which must be endured in any downtown recovery and does not much warrant a doomsday outlook for the future but rather the presence or lack of amentities is an indicator of downtown success.... I put the chicken before the egg....or is it the other way around..... ^_^

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ChiefJoJo Town

ChiefJoJo

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Posted

This is a tricky time... local condo demand seems strong (RBC sell out, Ann-Cabell said last week there are only 29 condos on the market), as more projects come online prices are quickly moderating (Hue starts at $160k) opening up the market to more buyers... but how much of a ceiling do we have left? How will the mortgage crisis affect the local housing market? What about interest rates? I heard A2 (works with Wachovia) over on the Charlotte forum say that any large residential projects that did not begin construction by 4Q '07 could be delayed significantly (capitalization issues?). I think non-highrise concrete or steel built projects like 630 North St may be put on hold, as their prices are quite high compared some others and they don't offer the niche of highrise living.

We could see the market slow down in the short term, but over the long term I believe the local market will be fine for all the reasons I stated above.

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RaleighRob Burg

RaleighRob

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Posted
This is a tricky time... local condo demand seems strong (RBC sell out, Ann-Cabell said last week there are only 29 condos on the market), as more projects come online prices are quickly moderating (Hue starts at $160k) opening up the market to more buyers... but how much of a ceiling do we have left? How will the mortgage crisis affect the local housing market? What about interest rates? I heard A2 (works with Wachovia) over on the Charlotte forum say that any large residential projects that did not begin construction by 4Q '07 could be delayed significantly (capitalization issues?). I think non-highrise concrete or steel built projects like 630 North St may be put on hold, as their prices are quite high compared some others and they don't the niche of highrise living.

We could see the market slow down in the short term, but over the long term I believe the local market will be fine for all the reasons I stated above.

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DanRNC Burg

DanRNC

Posted
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I think the only story to learn from this is that there is saturation point of $1 million+ condos especially in the current real estate market. Raleigh market forces already knew there was a limited market for these type of places except for the Soleil Center folks.

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Jones_ City

Jones_

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The guy being quoted in the article can't connect dots very well...the subprime buyer is not the target market for a $1million dollar condo unless they are a flipper looking for an interest only loan and in that case your credit should be good enough to get anything you want loan wise. I echo Dan's post.

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RiverwoodCLT Burg

RiverwoodCLT

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While The Charlotte is on hold, there are 13 other condo projects are in the construction phase or will start construction this year. Most all these condo projects will have retail on the first floor.

There have been 3 large condo project completed in the last few years are Courtside, Avenue and Trademark in uptown Charlotte.

Nearly 12,000 residents 2008 in Uptown today.

Fact for Uptown Charlotte, Midtown and South End (Now part of uptown facts.)

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ncwebguy Burg

ncwebguy

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A friend of my dad is an electrician that has been busy for the last few years with noting but upfitting work in condos in Uptown Charlotte.

This echoes what a lot of us have been saying on here -- the upscale condo market is very small and almost saturated (One Charlotte, Soleil) , while demand for mid- and lower-tier units (new and under construction units in Charlotte, Hue, West at North, 222 in Raleigh) continues to heat up.

As it has been documented in the Soleil thread, the hotel is subsidizning the condos in that building. But the high end hotel market in Charlotte is well served already, with the Westins (plural! one built, one on the way) Ritz-Carlton, etc. So I don't know if the hotel/condo hybrid is an option for the developer on this site.

With this project, 99 condos spread over 40 floors is pretty risky to begin with, and requires at least 50 (though preferrrably more) to buy in. Comparing that to, say RBC Plaza, is kinda apples and oranges. And is not a sign that the Charlotte or Raleigh condo markets are finished once projects in the pipeline are built.

The Charlotte of today is a lot better than the Charlotte of my youth (early/mid 80s) -- Discovery Place, Overstreet Mall, and not much else. I *hope* Raleigh doesn't take 20 years to get where Charlotte is today from a resident/retail perspective. Downtown Raleigh will *never* be where Charlotte is now -- BoA HQ/stadium, Wachovia HQ, Bobcats Arena, NASCAR HoF, train line, Johnson & Wales, etc. But it can still develop a nice, walkable core over the next 10-20 years *if* we maintain the leadership we've enjoyed over the last few years, and not that of the "North Raleigh Annexing Only" school of thought that proceeded it.

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Durhamite Hamlet

Durhamite

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Posted

As more emphasis is being geared towards urban living in our fair southern cities, why hasn't any developer really focused on areas that have low-to-mid range connectivity. Maybe a state-of-the-art version of the rowhouse. An area of the Hues, etc. seemingly connected that presents more of a neighborhood feel, not necessarily downtown but near the core.

Prime examples would be 401/S. Saunders St. from I-40 to near downtown in Raleigh. Graham st. in Charlotte from I-277 towards I-85. These areas seem prime for development that would mirror areas of DC.

Understandably we live in an auto-centric era but I see certain aspects of what I'm inferring but not a complete commitment from a developer.

Seems to me, you could develop these areas at a lower cost (maybe it's just not worth it at this point). I totally do not understand the dynamics of the business, just wondering why these areas within vicinity of the core haven't been given more attention in terms of urban development.

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