Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[ted124b]

I didn't know if this was the right place to post or not but the Rapid has acquired Hybrid Buses, 2 are apparently entering service today with 3 more on the way. Earlier this winter I was skiing in Colorado and rode on Hybrid buses being used there (I think made by GM) they were very cool. In that they are 1) good for the environment (at least better then the buses currently used) 2) look distinctive/cool 3) very smooth and comfortable and 4) show that the locale they are used in are in tune to environmental issues and care enough about their mass transit system to invest in it. Here is a link to a woodtv story on it:

http://woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6410327

[Libertarian]

"Rail Line Drives Utah Development," which has a link below, appeared in the Sunday NYT.

[GRDadof3]

"Rail Line Drives Utah Development," which has a link below, appeared in the Sunday NYT. Just another example of the positive externalities that can be spun off of mass transit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/realesta...&ei=5087%0A

Thanks Libertarian.

The Business Journal has an article today about GVMC passing their latest long-range transportation plan. In the article, the ITP folks are gushing over the $33 Million bus line on South Division.

It consists of running higher-speed buses from 60th Street to Monroe Avenue via Division Avenue and back, designed as a commuter line for downtown workers and students who live in Gaines and Byron townships, Kentwood and Wyoming.

They are projecting it will draw 3400 people a day off of 131, with 19 stops (?) between 60th and downtown, with a "major station" at 60th. Why 60th of all places? It dead ends at Division and doesn't even cross 131.

A couple of other interesting tidbits:

At least half of the corridor on the 10-mile run needs to have a dedicated commuter lane for both the in- and outbound rides.

Since fixed guideways disqualify you from the Very Small Starts Program, it sounds like they ARE planning to do a "queue jump lane", which will then give the bus traffic light priority when the light turns green. Wonder how that will affect the current traffic on South Division, and cross traffic at major intersection? Plus, I wonder how they'll overcome over 500 business drives between downtown and 60th Street? Not to mention the myriad of other small side streets and intersections.

[Rizzo]

Thanks Libertarian.

The Business Journal has an article today about GVMC passing their latest long-range transportation plan. In the article, the ITP folks are gushing over the $33 Million bus line on South Division.

It consists of running higher-speed buses from 60th Street to Monroe Avenue via Division Avenue and back, designed as a commuter line for downtown workers and students who live in Gaines and Byron townships, Kentwood and Wyoming.

They are projecting it will draw 3400 people a day off of 131, with 19 stops (?) between 60th and downtown, with a "major station" at 60th. Why 60th of all places? It dead ends at Division and doesn't even cross 131.

A couple of other interesting tidbits:

At least half of the corridor on the 10-mile run needs to have a dedicated commuter lane for both the in- and outbound rides.

Since fixed guideways disqualify you from the Very Small Starts Program, it sounds like they ARE planning to do a "queue jump lane", which will then give the bus traffic light priority when the light turns green. Wonder how that will affect the current traffic on South Division, and cross traffic at major intersection? Plus, I wonder how they'll overcome over 500 business drives between downtown and 60th Street? Not to mention the myriad of other small side streets and intersections.

Is anyone concerned that this enhanced bus will actually impact Division Ave to what is predicted? Has this form of busing changed land use habits, increase property value and development elsewhere? I can't wait for Division to be tree lined, transit oriented, and bustling, but it seems this is just people expecting the same development spin off that light rail has been known to create.

[sfloria]

The Business Journal has an article today about GVMC passing their latest long-range transportation plan. In the article, the ITP folks are gushing over the $33 Million bus line on South Division.

They are projecting it will draw 3400 people a day off of 131, with 19 stops (?) between 60th and downtown, with a "major station" at 60th. Why 60th of all places? It dead ends at Division and doesn't even cross 131.

Since fixed guideways disqualify you from the Very Small Starts Program, it sounds like they ARE planning to do a "queue jump lane", which will then give the bus traffic light priority when the light turns green. Wonder how that will affect the current traffic on South Division, and cross traffic at major intersection? Plus, I wonder how they'll overcome over 500 business drives between downtown and 60th Street? Not to mention the myriad of other small side streets and intersections.

GRDad,

I was expecting you to show up at the AIA Charette 2 weeks ago, thought I saw your name on the list. Anyway, I was part of the South Division team and we were working directly with Wyoming, Kentwood and ITP staff when we were looking at design solution for that area. The outcome should be released soon, but our recommendation was to put the commuter station at 54th and Division, rather than 60th. The bus would have its own dedicated lane, ONLY during rush hour times. Cars can use that lane anyother time of the day, but can only use it to make right turns during rush hour. It would only stop at major intersections (60th, 54th, 44th, 36th, 28th, etc).

It was really exciting to see the city staff and ITP staff so excited about the BRT line. We also had a few business owners along Division talk with us and they were really supportive too.

I think the 19 stops include all the stops they'll be making at Saint Mary's, Spectrum, etc. Sound like alot but I think its still pretty limited. I hope these changes get implemented, it'll make a drastic change to the landscape of Division into the city.

[GRDadof3]

GRDad,

I was expecting you to show up at the AIA Charette 2 weeks ago, thought I saw your name on the list. Anyway, I was part of the South Division team and we were working directly with Wyoming, Kentwood and ITP staff when we were looking at design solution for that area. The outcome should be released soon, but our recommendation was to put the commuter station at 54th and Division, rather than 60th. The bus would have its own dedicated lane, ONLY during rush hour times. Cars can use that lane anyother time of the day, but can only use it to make right turns during rush hour. It would only stop at major intersections (60th, 54th, 44th, 36th, 28th, etc).

It was really exciting to see the city staff and ITP staff so excited about the BRT line. We also had a few business owners along Division talk with us and they were really supportive too.

I think the 19 stops include all the stops they'll be making at Saint Mary's, Spectrum, etc. Sound like alot but I think its still pretty limited. I hope these changes get implemented, it'll make a drastic change to the landscape of Division into the city.

I know, I was signed up but I couldn't commit the time. I think I was the only "non-architect" signed up.

I also didn't realize they were going to talk so much about the BRT system. I heard from a couple of architects that it was widely discussed. Did anyone show examples of economic redevelopment in other cities near a BRT line?

[Rizzo]

I'm also trying to see if there are any BRT systems in the US that spur development. Does anyone know where after 28th st. in Downtown do the commuters get dropped off? I would suspect that there would be a terminus downtown near Division so that DASH can circulate the commuters. Seeing the video AIA posted it looks like it is VERY well received among the participating interests which should greatly add to its success. I'm still concerned that Division is going the way that 28th st. is from the sprawl out to the next suburbs.

If this has a significant impact on development and land use this might work great for other areas around GR; possibly a GVSU connect or other connections to outer suburbs.

[tracer1138]

I think Eugene, Oregon might have a peer system worth looking at.

No solid data on development yet, but Eugene just completed and is looking to expand their BRT system which currently runs to the suburb of Spring field.

Wikipedia - EMX (Emerald Express)

Lane Transit

It's interesting because I was there just last May and they hadn't finished it yet. From what I could tell just on a visual basis, they have dedicated lanes and fully built station stops in what looked like the former street right of way. If I hadn't known better and if I hadn't noticed the conspicuous lack of tracks in the road, I would have said they were buildling a light rail system.

The buses run on lanes of concrete versus asphalt for the road and while they're not grade-separated, I would get the sense you shouldn't be driving in them although I don't know what the official policy is.

:::-edit- going back and looking at the pictures, it looks like guidway system:::

We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

I don't know of any others in the U.S. off the top of my head, but I do know of a system in Ottawa, Ontario. I think they're still floating plans to convert that system to light rail with Diesel Multiple Units.

For reference, Eugene is essentially the Ann Arbor of Oregon... with a BRT system.

Edited April 24, 2007 by tracer1138

[GRDadof3]

I think Eugene, Oregon might have a peer system worth looking at.

No solid data on development yet, but Eugene just completed and is looking to expand their BRT system which currently runs to the suburb of Spring field.

Wikipedia - EMX (Emerald Express)

Lane Transit

It's interesting because I was there just last May and they hadn't finished it yet. From what I could tell just on a visual basis, they have dedicated lanes and fully built station stops in what looked like the former street right of way. If I hadn't known better and if I hadn't noticed the conspicuous lack of tracks in the road, I would have said they were buildling a light rail system.

The buses run on lanes of concrete versus asphalt for the road and while they're not grade-separated, I would get the sense you shouldn't be driving in them although I don't know what the official policy is.

:::-edit- going back and looking at the pictures, it looks like guidway system:::

We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

I don't know of any others in the U.S. off the top of my head, but I do know of a system in Ottawa, Ontario. I think they're still floating plans to convert that system to light rail with Diesel Multiple Units.

For reference, Eugene is essentially the Ann Arbor of Oregon... with a BRT system.

I'm familiar with the Eugene-Springfield BRT system. It's been toted as a successful alternative to light rail for years, even though it hasn't been built yet and there is no empirical evidence to back it up. They do use a "fixed guideway" system that is not accessible to auto traffic (which is not what GR would build). But hey, as long as it's cheaper and the feds will pay for part of it, it must be worthwhile right?

Here are some old images of the system from a 3d video that was created for it: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:0tc-V...;cd=2&gl=us

I haven't heard about any spinoff developments along this BRT line yet. However, I did read that Phoenix has almost a $Billion in development already along its LRT line under construction, not slated to open for a few years yet I believe.

Many BRT proponents compare their idea to a BRT system running in Curitiba, Brazil, even though the density of Curitiba is insanely higher than almost every American city (except the major Northeastern cities):

Ottawa, Ontario is running a five mile light rail system using DMU's, that connects with Ottawa's Bus Transitway (a complete highway system open only to buses). Their light rail system was built for an astonishingly low price of about $25 Million.

[gvsusean]

so our mass transit talk of grand rapids is to the point where we are going to build in essence nothing but spend millions of dollars doing it?? (last i checked we HAVE busses going down division) prediction for success: 0.

Im from the school of; when you do something you do it right the first time. i.e. dont buy something for the immediate gratification when in the long-run you know you will regret it.

i say no to new busses

[Raildudes dad]

so our mass transit talk of grand rapids is to the point where we are going to build in essence nothing but spend millions of dollars doing it?? (last i checked we HAVE busses going down division) prediction for success: 0.

Im from the school of; when you do something you do it right the first time. i.e. dont buy something for the immediate gratification when in the long-run you know you will regret it.

i say no to new busses

I would agree with you gvsusean. Can someone explain who's going to ride this thing? The freeway has no daily stop & go conditions during rush hour (unlike US 131 from I-196 to Post Drive) unless there's an accident. I can't see it drawing any freeway commuters. The route might have some sucess if they instituted express buses (skip some stops) that will make it downtown almost as fast as the cars on the freeway. Also need to get ride of most of the parking lots downtown.

[Rizzo]

I expressed this same sentiment a while back and was debated. It seems this concept is being used in place of light rail expecting the same exact results. It's not fair to expect this of enhanced bus and not fair to LRT considering the capital costs involved. There's a reason why development and land use is greatly effected more by LRT than a Bus route. The current philosophy is that when Grand Rapids is ready for light rail this express bus route will be upgraded to a line. Some of you know this will be trailblazing as I don't think this has ever been done before in the US.

In my opinion, a southern rail line will work as a limited local service with small park and rides where appropriate. A southern bus route seems to be where it will have to work the hardest to get people out of their cars. Like mentioned above 131 is right down the corridor, free access, etc. A train would be more attractive at getting people out of their cars, but of course finding the extra hundred million or so is the crux. I'm thinking its feasible to run rail down Division while utilizing a median in the center of most of Division Ave. In this simple median you could run the rail on ground and embed where traffic must cross. I wonder if ITP studied this rather then embedding the entire line which is why it was probably greatly inflated in costs. Embedding can get you at $600-$700 or so per foot per rail.

I say yes to the BRT route for its purpose at introducing our Metro to express busing. It's a shame local money can't be pooled for a southern LRT line though.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Rizzo

[sfloria]

Can someone explain who's going to ride this thing? The route might have some sucess if they instituted express buses (skip some stops) that will make it downtown almost as fast as the cars on the freeway. Also need to get rid of most of the parking lots downtown.

Division is already the busiest bus route for ITP. They believe that the BRT will get the most ridership along this route. There will still be regular bus service along Division that will stop every 2 blocks or so. The BRT will only stop at major crossings. I think this is one step at moving parking lots out of downtown. Companies can provide insentive packages for employees to get off at 54th and use the BRT, instead of parking downtown and using the DASH. When more and more people get used to riding the BRT, I think it will be an easy transition to move into a light rail system. I agree it would make a lot more sense to just go for the light rail at the beginning...

GRDad,

I don't remember any specific examples of economic development that BRT lines spurred, but they did show several examples of cities that use them and the different style busses that are used. They "look" like they are on rails. The buses literally don't show their wheels. It gives the impression that its on some kind of track.

[Rizzo]

Division is already the busiest bus route for ITP. They believe that the BRT will get the most ridership along this route. There will still be regular bus service along Division that will stop every 2 blocks or so. The BRT will only stop at major crossings. I think this is one step at moving parking lots out of downtown. Companies can provide insentive packages for employees to get off at 54th and use the BRT, instead of parking downtown and using the DASH. When more and more people get used to riding the BRT, I think it will be an easy transition to move into a light rail system. I agree it would make a lot more sense to just go for the light rail at the beginning...

GRDad,

I don't remember any specific examples of economic development that BRT lines spurred, but they did show several examples of cities that use them and the different style busses that are used. They "look" like they are on rails. The buses literally don't show their wheels. It gives the impression that its on some kind of track.

They didn't look anything like LRT. The proposed vehicles look like the same buses that are used now except for a different color scheme. If I remember correctly, there was a rendering floating around somewhere in this thread.

At first I thought they were going to go for LRT look alike, but maybe it's cheaper to revamp current buses and rebrand the vehicles.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Division is already the busiest bus route for ITP. They believe that the BRT will get the most ridership along this route. There will still be regular bus service along Division that will stop every 2 blocks or so. The BRT will only stop at major crossings. I think this is one step at moving parking lots out of downtown. Companies can provide insentive packages for employees to get off at 54th and use the BRT, instead of parking downtown and using the DASH. When more and more people get used to riding the BRT, I think it will be an easy transition to move into a light rail system. I agree it would make a lot more sense to just go for the light rail at the beginning...

GRDad,

I don't remember any specific examples of economic development that BRT lines spurred, but they did show several examples of cities that use them and the different style busses that are used. They "look" like they are on rails. The buses literally don't show their wheels. It gives the impression that its on some kind of track.

Yeah, I know, like this:

The South Division BRT will look nothing like this, since it won't have a concrete "fixed guideway" exclusively for its use where the wheels won't be seen.

As Rizzo said, you can expect it to look more like these (not sure if they will be extended articulated versions):

They need to cut the stops in half, if not even more, before they'll get very many commuters to consider riding it. Especially since they're going to keep RAPID route 1 in place, why do they even need stops at every major road like 44th, 36th, 28th, etc? At most, they should have stops at 54th, 36th or 28th, and maybe Burton or Franklin and that's it. How many people are going to pay a premium to get on at Franklin and Division to ride to downtown, when they can pay a lower fare and ride RAPID #1 (and probably take only a few minutes longer)? What developer is going to build a $25 Million residential development in one of the worst blighted areas of the city, just because it's served by an express bus service? I'm sure that's why they have SO many stops between 28th and Franklin, in "hopes" that it will spur development at these platforms, but I've yet to see any other TOD's along BRT routes anywhere in this country. Still looking. I hate being the critic all the time lately, but this plan is doomed to fail as currently planned (and I know many people who agree with me).

I could give my support behind this BRT idea if they have it do what it's intended to do: get commuters off the highway and into downtown in a FAST and EFFICIENT manner, with as few strategically placed stations as possible. If they can get people from 68th or 54th to downtown in 15 - 18 minutes, then I think it would work, and it would be much faster than the current RAPID route, and be competitive with driving on 131. Then they should feel fortunate if they get redevelopment at the 3 or 4 stations. But there's no way this BRT system is going to turn S. Division into the next Pearl District. No BRT ever has, so why would GR be any different?

[Rizzo]

I think your right on Dad. This goes right back to the notion that lenders seem more likely to fund TODs when they are serviced by rail.

If anyone is interested, here is a picture from ITP showing the concept: Bus near 44th and Division Ave.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Thanks Rizzo. That answers the question about the style of bus.

Here's a video of a BRT in development, that is similar to ITP's plan:

[gvsusean]

I think your right on Dad. This goes right back to the notion that lenders seem more likely to fund TODs when they are serviced by rail.

If anyone is interested, here is a picture from ITP showing the concept: Bus near 44th and Division Ave.

you dont need a creative picture for a concept just take a pic of route 1

does this milleage coming up for mass transit have anything to do with this project?

[GRDadof3]

you dont need a creative picture for a concept just take a pic of route 1

does this millage coming up for mass transit have anything to do with this project?

No, it doesn't.

[DwntwnGeo]

I know this is outside of the Grand Rapids Market, but I wanted to post it here for others to read. What are your opinions? If this works out on the East side of the State what type of similar markets are good for the Grand Rapids amd Westerm Michigan areas. We have talked about Muskegon <-> GR, Holland <-> GR, Kalamazoo <-> GR, Lansing <-> GR and Muskegon <-> Holland or south to Saugatuck and South Heaven.

The article talks about how the rail service would be a "business - government partnership" An interesting quote from the article is:

"The line would be operated by the Great Lakes Central Railroad, formerly known as the Tuscola and Saginaw Bay line.

Cicchella said the plan is to create a transit authority that would be expandable in order to oversee the potential growth of the railroad south to Monroe and north to Traverse City and Petoskey."

If this comes into reality it would touch or cross several larger cities including Alma (Alma College), Mt. Pleasant (Casino & CMU), Clare, Cadillac, Traverse City and Petoskey. Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a line that went from GR to Cadillac and GR to Lansing/Howell to connect with this system? I know I am in a dream land, but it is nice to see other people and other areas of the State starting to aquire and think about alternative modes of transit.

The two articles are:

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2007704270338

http://www.livingstondaily.com/apps/pbcs.d...D=2007704260320

Another Forum member started a thread in the Michigan section on the first section between Howell and Ann Arbor being operational this Fall. The thread is:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=37986

Edited April 30, 2007 by DwntwnGeo

[michaelskis]

Does anyone know if there have been anymore updates on the possibility of a trolley system in downtown?

Additionally, have the cost numbers been narrowed down for a possible commuter rail? I have someone who is interested in joining the group discussion.

[Rizzo]

Does anyone know if there have been anymore updates on the possibility of a trolley system in downtown?

Additionally, have the cost numbers been narrowed down for a possible commuter rail? I have someone who is interested in joining the group discussion.

Get 'em on UP. This thread welcomes ideas and discussion!

[GRDadof3]

Does anyone know if there have been anymore updates on the possibility of a trolley system in downtown?

Additionally, have the cost numbers been narrowed down for a possible commuter rail? I have someone who is interested in joining the group discussion.

The ITP people stated that the Light Rail Streetcar might be as much as five years out. Someone I spoke with thought that it would be funded by a Grand Action campaign, and they are busy with MSU Med School right now.

Commuter/Light Rail is still underway. Due to certain individuals having other jobs, , time is hard to come by. Your friend is more than welcome to come to any upcoming meetings. I have been told that another rail official has expressed interest in being involved as well.

[Libertarian]

"A mass-transit trek through Portland's singular sites," is a great article that I found in the travel section of the LAT.

[GRDadof3]

"A mass-transit trek through Portland's singular sites," is a great article that I found in the travel section of the LAT. It is my opinion that this is better advertising than any commercial with Tim Allen... Oops did I just say that? Anyways, it is a really great read:

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-portland6may06

That is a great article. Maybe someday Libertarian.

As an aside, that Inn @ Northrop Station where the writer stayed looks like a really cool boutique hotel along the streetcar line.

Their website is well done too.

I know this is getting way off topic, but there was an article recently in the Press about a big group of food critics from around the country visiting GR. I wonder if any of them have written their reviews yet. It sounded like it went pretty well.