Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[tamias6]

^ That's the only beef preventing me from taking full advantage of GR's public transit. The nearest bus stop to me is located across the street from the mobile home community I live in. But service is really spotty except during peak hours. The nearest bus stop with good solid service is about a mile away. I could bike there. But the only way to get there is via Wilson Ave. and then Lake Michigan Drive. Both are very busy and dangerous roads I would not walk or bike on come hell or high water.

If the first bus stop I mentioned had solid service I could depend on the same level of the GVSU connector for example I would hop on the bus in a heart beat.

Edited November 13, 2007 by tamias6

[GRDadof3]

The RAPID eyes growth

By Ken Kolker

The Grand Rapids Press

GRAND RAPIDS -- Local transportation leaders envision smaller Rapid transit buses busting through today's boundaries and venturing into places such as Byron, Gaines and Plainfield townships, maybe as far north as Rockford.

"As the Grand Rapids economy grows and downtown grows, it becomes a people magnet," said Grand Valley Metropolitan Council Executive Director Donald Stypula.

"The more ways we can figure out how to get people from their homes to their jobs and from their homes to downtown for entertainment, for medical service, that would be a good thing."

Sounds great! And what do you guys think of this last part?

The service likely would start as dial-a-ride instead of fixed, regularly scheduled routes, said Stypula and Rapid officials.

[Rizzo]

What I don't understand is that there is already dial-a-ride. If the concept of county-wide transit means having dial-a-ride why not expand it? If there hasn't been a growing need for dial-a-ride, why pay for consultants to tell you what you already know?

Edited November 13, 2007 by Rizzo

[tamias6]

One additional idea to toss into the mix would be for communities in the metro area to redo their master plans to concentrate growth and density along existing bus routes. Doing this would reduce the likelihood of the RAPID moving bus routes by bringing growth to the bus routes instead of vice versa. In addition it would make it easier to replace bus service with fixed guide way based mass transit options since the density would already be in place to support beefier mass transit.

[GRDadof3]

What I don't understand is that there is already dial-a-ride. If the concept of county-wide transit means having dial-a-ride why not expand it? If there hasn't been a growing need for dial-a-ride, why pay for consultants to tell you what you already know?

Thank you Rizzo. We already have dial-a-ride, it's called "a taxi". I'm beginning to lose faith in our local transportation planning people again.

All kidding aside, isn't there already a dial-a-ride system available through the RAPID or the county that serves the metro area?

http://www.ridetherapid.org/county/

$14 per person one way?

[tamias6]

Thank you Rizzo. We already have dial-a-ride, it's called "a taxi". I'm beginning to lose faith in our local transportation planning people again.

All kidding aside, isn't there already a dial-a-ride system available through the RAPID or the county that serves the metro area?

http://www.ridetherapid.org/county/

$14 per person one way?

$14 per person one way is a tad too much. It would be cheaper to drive unless gas went up to $20 a gallon.

[Rizzo]

I don't think I'm being over critical, but this is a misdirection if this is the conclusion. If there's already a county-wide transit system in place why all this? The subcommittee and hundreds of thousands of dollars? On top of that they're sticking with bus in context with downtown commutes? From Rockford?

Edited November 14, 2007 by Rizzo

[Allison Slater]

Perhaps there's more to this 'dial-a-ride' they're speaking of that isn't quite being revealed? There's already Go-BUS.

As for GoBUS, on a minimum wage income of about 40 hours a week, relying on GoBUS round-trip would eat half of one's total income, providing I did the math correctly. Ouch.

[Rizzo]

Perhaps, but there shouldn't have to be anything "revealed." Unless, you mean the article isn't revealing anything more.

Go!Bus isn't an option for most people. Presuming you are handicapped or a senior the Go!Bus is then an option.

This whole thing is:

Edited November 14, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Perhaps, but there shouldn't have to be anything "revealed." Unless, you mean the article isn't revealing anything more.

Go!Bus isn't an option for most people. Presuming you are handicapped or a senior the Go!Bus is then an option.

This whole thing is:

Maybe they're throwing out the idea of "dial-a-ride" to stave off the critics. This might be a well-formulated PR campaign.

[tamias6]

I could see smaller buses serving areas were people are in favor of using public transit but are not dense enough to support full size buses yet. They could also be used to act as feeders for full size bus lines.

[Rizzo]

Maybe they're throwing out the idea of "dial-a-ride" to stave off the critics. This might be a well-formulated PR campaign.

You have to wonder if there is some game plan considering the kind of opposition transit dealt with during the millage vote. I'm actually really surprised the RapidNo people aren't out propagating half-truths and negativity right now. This especially, since ITP is paying for the streetcar study and may possibly pay for this other county-wide study.

[grbrit]

if I have to wait two hours for a train to Holland, I'll just hop in the car and be there in 1/2 hour.

If the first bus stop I mentioned had solid service I could depend on the same level of the GVSU connector for example I would hop on the bus in a heart beat.

$14 per person one way is a tad too much. It would be cheaper to drive unless gas went up to $20 a gallon.

All your concerns are valid for a regular commuter, but schedules and expense aren't always the main factor:

• Flying out of GRR: You know ahead of time when you need to be there and don't want to pay to leave the car in long term.
  
• Being able to go out for a drink/meal in any of the other tri-city areas without drink driving
  (sometimes I feel I'm the only one in WM who doesn't drink and drive).
  
• Out-of-town tourist with no transport.
  

[Rizzo]

Ok, here's some more Press on the county-wide transit talks. Apparently, they're going to talk with Ottawa county! Now we're getting somewhere. In terms of commuting there should be talks on other transit modes.

Also, a reminder of an upcoming meeting at Central Station: East Meets West Public Transit Town Hall Meeting

Edited November 15, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Ok, here's some more Press on the county-wide transit talks. Apparently, they're going to talk with Ottawa county! Now we're getting somewhere. In terms of commuting there should be talks on other transit modes.

Also, a reminder of an upcoming meeting at Central Station: East Meets West Public Transit Town Hall Meeting

Wow, that's excellent Rizzo! I'm going to have to try and make that meeting.

In other news, the National Association of Realtors in partnership with Smart Growth America conducted a national survey recently that showed that people in the U.S. now overwhelmingly think expanded mass transit is the best way to reduce traffic congestion and curb uncontrolled growth:

http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/narsgare...desgraphics.pdf

http://www.realtor.org/RMODaily.nsf/pages/News2007102502

http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/narsgareport2007.html

Only 21% support building new roads.

[Rizzo]

Wow, that's some unexpected percentages!

The Press today came out in support of the study for county-wide transit. It's amazing how much support is going to transit in Grand Rapids these days. Here's to hoping that this unleashes more discussion with real action, especially in diversified transit options.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Rizzo

[blueradon]

When they're done talking to Ottawa County - I'm sure Muskegon County will be next if they haven't already been discussing.

Don't forget us North-Easterners too! Montcalm/Ionia County plays somewhat of a role here for regional transportation - but I know it's not AS great as the Kent-Ottawa-Muskegon ordeal.

<insert $0.02>

Better yet - make a highway from GR to Mount Pleasant and I'll be even happier -- I know that's not the answer though.

But we have unused rail that goes from Stanton (maybe farther) to Lowell that is not used anymore. Of course it'll be a crapload of money especially if they'd have to lay new rail...

Edited November 16, 2007 by blueradon

[Raildudes dad]

Wow, that's some unexpected percentages!

The Press today came out in support of the study for county-wide transit. It's amazing how much support is going to transit in Grand Rapids these days. Here's to hoping that this unleashes more discussion with real action, especially in diversified transit options.

I'm suspecting a lot of this support is from folks that think for $1.30 one way or $1.00 if you buy 10, just like the current bus, they are going to get on the streetcar or light rail train a few blocks from their house and get off a few blocks from work, just like Chicago & New York. At $28.75 MILLION per mile just to construct the 2.4 mile street car line, we're going to be waiting a long time for federal money 'cause there's no way in he**, a local millage is going to raise that kind of capital costs let alone operating funds.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Raildudes dad

[Rizzo]

When they're done talking to Ottawa County - I'm sure Muskegon County will be next if they haven't already been discussing.

Don't forget us North-Easterners too! Montcalm/Ionia County plays somewhat of a role here for regional transportation - but I know it's not AS great as the Kent-Ottawa-Muskegon ordeal.

<insert $0.02>

Better yet - make a highway from GR to Mount Pleasant and I'll be even happier -- I know that's not the answer though.

But we have unused rail that goes from Stanton (maybe farther) to Lowell that is not used anymore. Of course it'll be a crapload of money especially if they'd have to lay new rail...

I'm suspecting a lot of this support is from folks that think for $1.30 one way or $1.00 if you buy 10, just like the current bus, they are going to get on the streetcar or light rail train a few blocks from their house and get off a few blocks from work, just like Chicago & New York. At $28.75 MILLION per mile just to construct the 2.4 mile street car line, we're going to be waiting a long time for federal money 'cause there's no way in he**, a local millage is going to raise that kind of capital costs let alone operating funds.

But, the costs don't have to be that way. Grand Rapids should be able to scale a starter line to its needs. The proposed streetcar loop has significant costs associated with it because of track design. The problem is embedding the rail the entire length much like ITP's proposal for Division AVE. What should be happening is using open track where possible. Rochester, NY found out similar ways to reduce costs so that the community could take on the potential project -- something similar to the O-train in Ottawa, Ontario. Ottawa got there entire LRT line started for as little as $21 million.

But, you're right, you can bet the Feds won't be there and neither will Michigan. Although, Michigan seems to be slowly turning as evidence by the town hall meeting scheduled for this December. It's going to take leadership, creative funding measures coupled with budget engineering to get anything going.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Rizzo

[Raildudes dad]

But, the costs don't have to be that way. Grand Rapids should be able to scale a starter line to its needs. The proposed streetcar loop has significant costs associated with it because of track design. The problem is embedding the rail the entire length much like ITP's proposal for Division AVE. What should be happening is using open track where possible. Rochester, NY found out similar ways to reduce costs so that the community could take on the potential project -- something similar to the O-train in Ottawa, Ontario. Ottawa got there entire LRT line started for as little as $21 million.

But, you're right, you can bet the Feds won't be there and neither will Michigan. Although, Michigan seems to be slowly turning as evidence by the town hall meeting scheduled for this December. It's going to take leadership, creative funding measures coupled with budget engineering to get anything going.

I agree wholehearted with you, it needs to be done economically, no pie in the sky, and expensive thinking consultants, rail using existing rail with DASH bus around downtown, but.......................... , we just keep building big ramps under and next to buildings

[Rizzo]

I say the same and believe that the community has to demand constraints in budgets and engineering.

The streetcar is important now as a step. Here's my take on why the downtown loop will be vital in future rail transit. The project, I believe, is going to be funded with a large chuck of private dollars and TIF. Now if this streetcar loop gets built, light rail vehicles carrying commuters can simply get people closer to their destination via the loop instead of terminating and having customers transfer to a DASH shuttle. If doable, DASH services can be reduced and funds can be made available from DASH to help operate downtown services -- streetcar and commuter LRT.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Rizzo

[Grand Rapidian]

I'm suspecting a lot of this support is from folks that think for $1.30 one way or $1.00 if you buy 10, just like the current bus, they are going to get on the streetcar or light rail train a few blocks from their house and get off a few blocks from work, just like Chicago & New York. At $28.75 MILLION per mile just to construct the 2.4 mile street car line, we're going to be waiting a long time for federal money 'cause there's no way in he**, a local millage is going to raise that kind of capital costs let alone operating funds.

Part of that cost is due to the high property value. To build a line, you need a garage for the cars. That alone is not cheap, it is something we could escape with lower cost. The engineering cost must be higher because a larger amount of planning is required to squeeze the infrastructure in with existing infrastructure.

Still, the cost is high.

[Rizzo]

ITP has moved on properties south of (and under) Wealthy that look to be adequate for a car barn and small maintenance facility. ITP looks to be killing two birds with one stone as Pere Marq will probably be rerouted under Wealth St. into the boarding terminal. The startup costs should be lower as ITP is in possession of quite a bit of space in that area.

Commuter light-rail may be a different story, transit operators can contract maintenance and storage through public-private partnerships. Both CSX and NS (and smaller rail operators) operate considerable storage yards that can be contracted (leased) to house, or maintain HRVs or LRVs. This of course can alleviate capital costs need for new land and facilities and result in lower startup costs.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Rizzo

[monsoon]

While it may not have too much to do with this topic I thought that I would suggest that you guys have a look at the topic here on UrbanPlanet that covers Charlotte's new light rail line that opened this past weekend. We are fortunate that a number of UP members took the time to ride the train and document the experiences including the overwhelming crowds that came to see it. There was some concern here that the expense of building such a line in a city that is not very densely populated would be a waste of money. As can be seen, the line carried 60,000 people the first day it was open and another 40,000 on a very cold and rainy Sunday. This is for a line that was initially projected to carry 9100 people/day in it's first year of operation.

It's an interesting topic in that very few of these get opened in the USA and that when they do, interest from the public is always a lot higher than what critics will suggest. It's an example that can be used in your own struggles to get a line going that show the public is in favor of this type of transit especially over the often suggest option, city buses.

Note: Borrowed uptownlivings photo from here.

[GRDadof3]

While it may not have too much to do with this topic I thought that I would suggest that you guys have a look at the topic here on UrbanPlanet that covers Charlotte's new light rail

Thanks! These shots are the money shots:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=894298

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=894317

This video is good too:

Interestingly, I don't think I would have even known that Charlotte had a new LRT system without UP around.

It will be interesting to see where ridership settles in after about a year or so. But 100,000 riders the first two days shows people are definitely interested in it.