Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[Veloise]

>IDEA<

Let's dig up the turn-of-the-previous-C streetcar routes, see what worked then.

[tamias6]

I would love to see a map of the old street car system and how much of the city it covered.

[GRDadof3]

I think we're basically on the same page here. Perhaps a rule of thumb should be something like: stay on the street when there is a business center within 1 mile. Try to find a high-speed dedicated ROW when the distance to the next business center is more than 1 mile.

Still the nicer option in my opinion is the dedicated bus/streetcar lane. This would mean getting serious about public transport--i.e. making car traffic worse so that the public transit can be better.

I could get on board with that winjer. (pun intended).

Here ya go Vel:

[grcitydog]

Does anyone know the average speed of a streetcar as opposed to light rail? I'm thinking mostly that a streetcar system is probably too slow to be used for commutes of more than a couple of miles. I really can't see one going into the suburbs without taking an inordinate amount of time; and it's time and convenience that are going to get people to give up their cars in favor of any type of mass transit.

[Rizzo]

Its the same for BRT. ITP put Streetcar and BRT at almost neck and neck for choice. Its not going to out beat a bus or any vehicle on Division, nor is a Bus. The argument is being made here that if a commuter is going to appreciate service that takes them fast and convenient this doesn't seem to be the way.

The speed depends on many things.

If you had great conditions operating speeds can be upper 40s to 50mph or so with what Portland operates on its MAX lines (The Siemens/SD 600A vehicles) The streetcars such as the Skoda 10T (same which Portland uses) get about 42mph. Keep in mind that averages can vary, but I would make a guess that the streetcar would be about what the BRT on division is 15-18mph. I believe no matter the vehicle it still must operate within the speed laws.

If you separated a streetcar onto a right of way where it can open the throttle than I sure would expect it to great for commuting between Grand Rapids to Wyoming or Kentwood distances. Its also low floor so it can offer intercity on street service.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Rizzo

[tamias6]

Wouldn't the BRT and Streetcar lines have traffic light priority? That alone would make the systems faster than driving as they would not has to sit and wait out red lights like automotive traffic. Going from 68th street to the core the BRT line proposed for Division Ave. without red lights could potentially shave off ten to fifteen minutes from commute time. If dedicated bus lanes are called for in the plan, that would further cut travel time as no automotive traffic would be allowed to drive on the bus lanes.

[LA Dave]

I haven't been following this thread until recently. Before 1935 or so, a streetcar line ran up Plainfield as far as Knapp Street. If you visit that intersection today, you will see a small triangular piece of property on the southwest corner. According to old timers (former teachers of mine), that's where the street cars were turned for the trip south toward downtown.

Just a bit of historical trivia.

[GRDadof3]

Check out the latest poll results in the Grand Rapids section: Would you support a regional transit "sales tax"

[tracer1138]

Check out the latest poll results in the Grand Rapids section: Would you support a regional transit "sales tax"

Those are encouraging stats, just don't forget the demographics of UP.

I imagine that most people who would participate in a forum called "Urban Planet" are by and large already predisposed to support Urban Transit Initiatives.

[GRDadof3]

Those are encouraging stats, just don't forget the demographics of UP.

I imagine that most people who would participate in a forum called "Urban Planet" are by and large already predisposed to support Urban Transit Initiatives.

You would think so, but I think we have quite a few "urban-conservatives" here, and the political leanings (Governor's race for instance) have fallen on both sides pretty evenly.

Poll: Where do you fall on the political/ideological spectrum

[AlexPKeaton]

We may differ ideologically, but we have a common interest here. Lots of others from similar ideologies don't. Though I must say just about anybody I mention light rail or streetcars to seems pretty interested in the idea. So maybe the UP poll results are skewed, but it might still be popular enough with the general population to pass.

[GRDadof3]

We may differ ideologically, but we have a common interest here. Lots of others from similar ideologies don't. Though I must say just about anybody I mention light rail or streetcars to seems pretty interested in the idea. So maybe the UP poll results are skewed, but it might still be popular enough with the general population to pass.

I'm pretty encouraged that if we can get a 90%+ favorable here, then we can squeek out a simple majority (51 or 52%) in Kent County at least, with a good concerted grass roots effort. I too hear a lot of positive feedback when I mention light rail to people. I haven't heard anyone I know say that it's a taxpayer waste (and I know some pretty conservative/Rush Limbaugh/anti-tax folk). I have heard people say they probably wouldn't ride it (work in sales or travel a lot throughout the day), but aren't against it.

[tamias6]

No body likes to fork over their hard earn dollars to inexcusable high gas prices to go to and from work every week day. At least I and none in my family don't. Thus I believe a good mass transit system in GR would be very well accepted. Look how well the bus service is doing right now.

[Grand Rapidian]

Interesting article in todays press. They published "proposed" routes too.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ss....xml&coll=6

[GRDadof3]

The Grand Rapids Press wants feedback on the proposed streetcars. Let your voice be heard (because you know they'll get a bunch of yayhoos writing in).

Group pitches upscale streetcars for downtown

Proposed Extensions - Grand Rapids Press

In thinking critically about this more, I think streetcars with more frequent stops can serve a vital role connecting neighborhood centers together:

East Grand Rapids - Blodgett - Eastown - Uptown - Downtown

West Leonard - Creston - Monroe North - Downtown

John Ball - West Side - GVSU - Downtown

Michigan - Healthcare Hill - St Mary's - Downtown

Alger Heights - Burton Heights - South Division - Downtown

And then light rail or commuter rail with fewer stops serves an important role connecting commuters (workers and students) with major employment and campus centers

Comstock Park - Park-n-rides - Downtown

South Beltline - Park-n-rides - Downtown

GVSU - Park-n-rides -Downtown

Grandville/SW - Park-n-rides - Chicago Dr - Downtown

Airport - Woodland Mall/28th - Park-n-rides - Downtown

Cascade/FH/East side - Downtown

But we need a better vehicle for funding than just relying on increasing property tax millages.

[DwntwnGeo]

Here are the proposed routes mentioned in the GR Press:

I am sure this will have to be done in stages and not all at once.

EDIT: oops, GRDad beat me to it again

Edited February 11, 2007 by DwntwnGeo

[DwntwnGeo]

And then light rail or commuter rail with fewer stops serves an important role connecting commuters (workers and students) with major employment and campus centers

Comstock Park - Park-n-rides - Downtown

South Beltline - Park-n-rides - Downtown

GVSU - Park-n-rides -Downtown

Grandville/SW - Park-n-rides - Chicago Dr - Downtown

Airport - Woodland Mall/28th - Park-n-rides - Downtown

Cascade/FH/East side - Downtown

But we need a better vehicle for funding than just relying on increasing property tax millages.

Thinking about space and ROW requirements in the DT area, if we cannot bring the Commuter/Light Rail right into Central Station at least bring it to the outter core where people can transfer to streetcars to get where they need to in the DT area.

[GRDadof3]

Here are some ideas I've been thinking of for a North, West, and South light rail lines:

North LRT. This would connect the West side light rail and the North light rail to a common station near LMD/Pearl and Seward. Streetcar circulators would then take riders to downtown. Possible station at American Seating/Israel's complex or Leonard, station at Deltaplex area, station at the end near Whitecaps Park with park-n-ride. About 4 miles total at about $40 Million/mile = $160 Million

West Side LRT. Connects to North Side LRT at Seward Station. Follows Wealthy out to Kent Trails ROW, Millennium Park/Amphitheater Station, Standale Plaza Station, Wilson/Meijer station (with possible extension eventually to GVSU). Feeder buses to GVSU to begin with. 3 stations, about 5 miles, $200 Million

South Side LRT. Follows two options: Interurban ROW that Rizzo found, or the rail corridor that runs along 131. Initial line would stop at 54th Street (due to lack of culverts under South Beltline) Potential expansion further South to 76th and beyond. About 5 miles, 3 stations and then tying into ITP Central = $200 Million

Sorry for the gigantic files. If you want to see the full size with enhanced details, you can go to my flickr site.

[snoogit]

I like your west-side LRT route I really hope that with any system the city doesn't overlook those of us who happen to live here outside of US 131. Which I fear that the current proposed BRT/Streetcar system lacks a good east to west-side connection.

[GRDadof3]

I like your west-side LRT route I really hope that with any system the city doesn't overlook those of us who happen to live here outside of US 131. Which I fear that the current proposed BRT/Streetcar system lacks a good east to west-side connection.

To repeat again: the South Division BRT proposal is just a first step, and that's assuming that they get federal funding for that project. Grand Rapids can only qualify for so much federal funding at a time, because there simply isn't any money in Washington for transit (or very little). Perhaps that will change after the next presidential election, but who knows. That's all the more reason it become imperative to formulate alternative local funding sources, today!

[Rizzo]

I agree, we are going to have to take charge and pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps... I don't think we should let the federal government determine our potential economic growth.

[GRDadof3]

I amended the West Side LRT plan to also include a new on/off-ramp from I-196 to serve the Millennium Park Station park-n-ride, the new Amphitheater, and Millennium Park itself. Add $25 - $30 Million to that estimate, but man what a sweet deal that would be.

[egrguy]

I saw this and was very excitied. I love the fact that there is a proposed line that goes to GVSU and Gaslight Village. That will enable me to walk to the station, ride into the city for events etc, and ride back to the station and walk home without even getting in my car. Very awesome, or I can walk to it and take the line to my classes at GVSU, however, I guess Id hope I'm done at GVSU by the time the line would be placed, but It got me very excited reading the article today.

[Rizzo]

I read that article and was a little annoyed they referenced to this O'Toole fellow. I believe he has been known to be funded by oil and right-wing extremists. Its this kind of mingling of outsiders both left and right and extremists that disturbs me.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Rizzo

[Veloise]

I read that article and was a little annoyed they referenced to this O'Toole fellow. I believe he has been known to be funded by oil and right-wing extremists. Its this kind of mingling of outsiders both left and right and extremists that disturbs me.

That "fair & balanced" stuff keeps coming up. (I once heard an excellent NPR report about an issue with real, true facts...and the mainstream media decided to obtain "alternate viewpoints" to keep things "balanced." Although there was no reason to include opinions amidst the facts, this happened anyway.)