Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[Rizzo]

Looks like the excitement came a little late for them?

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/grmetro_a...x?storyid=69554

http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/gt2study/

Edited January 31, 2007 by Rizzo

[Rizzo]

Has anyone heard more on the progress of the Kent County sponsored sub-committee for county wide rapid transit?

[GRDadof3]

No, but check this out.

Ann Arbor - City pushes for earlier start of rail commute

They want the trial run commuter rail line from Whitmore Lake to downtown Ann Arbor to start before US-23 construction starts this summer. The $2.4 Million would be picked up by MDOT. $193,000 is to rebuild the tracks so that they are smooth enough for passenger travel. That's great for Ann Arbor, and I wonder if this is something that might work along I-196 when they begin the realignment and additional lanes East of downtown.

Similar to Ann Arbor's, the first segment could follow the GRE rail line near I-196 (as discussed previously), and could stop somewhere near Houseman where shuttle buses could proceed to downtown. Could be a commuter rail start, no?

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...&iwloc=addr

[Rizzo]

You could probably, although I would address the issue of ridership. I'd like to get a survey of downtown businesses and where their employees are commuting from. If we could identify core clusters or areas where these folks are coming from that would be helpful.

I asked a rail rep about commuter rail on that ROW and there was quite some apprehension. The only folks I seemed to get interest from was Coppersville and Marne Railyway, and that was only if there was viability to a proposal.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Rizzo

[winjer]

Proposed Streetcar Alignment North South

Future Phases and Connections

I've thought a little bit about the proposed streetcar route. I think it makes a lot of sense as an start, and if/when the promised economic returns materialize, several additional lines suggest themselves.

I came up with the following system, which connects the heart of downtown with all of the important surrounding neighborhoods. It could be done in phases, gradually replacing inner-city bus lines. Take a look and let me know what you think:

Edited February 1, 2007 by winjer

[GRDadof3]

I've thought a little bit about the proposed streetcar route. I think it makes a lot of sense as an start, and if/when the promised economic returns materialize, several additional lines suggest themselves.

I came up with the following system, which connects the heart of downtown with all of the important surrounding neighborhoods. It could be done in phases, gradually replacing inner-city bus lines. Take a look and let me know what you think:

I think that's precisely what the ultimate goal should be in 20-30 years. It's going to take time to swallow the costs to make it a reality. I would also like to see the original streetcar line loop back down to the South end, either via Division, or go across Leonard and come back South on Seward. I also don't think I'd run a line down Monroe Center. I think it's too narrow and would be too slow, and just a block off on either Louis or Pearl would be close enough. What do you think winjer?

In addition, commuter rails feeding into the line would help get some highway travelers off the road.

[winjer]

I think that's precisely what the ultimate goal should be in 20-30 years. It's going to take time to swallow the costs to make it a reality. I would also like to see the original streetcar line loop back down to the South end, either via Division, or go across Leonard and come back South on Seward. I also don't think I'd run a line down Monroe Center. I think it's too narrow and would be too slow, and just a block off on either Louis or Pearl would be close enough. What do you think winjer?

In addition, commuter rails feeding into the line would help get some highway travelers off the road.

Might there be an argument for avoiding loops (i.e., instead, squashing loops into lines) so that folks can always plan on going in either direction without having to remember which road is which way?

Pearl would work well as a replacement for Monroe Ctr. in that 'Monroe Ctr.-S. Division' line....but having it on Monroe Ctr would be 'picture perfect' don't you think? If the streetcar can flip lights it might actually speed up traffic on that road...well on the other hand it might be too cramped for tracks in both directions, considering its a one-way right now and I wouldn't want to lose any parking there....

OK, let's make it 'Pearl-S. Division'! I can hear the robot (or conductor?) voice now: "Transfer to ... Wealthy-Eastown"... sounds nice, doesn't it!

[GRDadof3]

Might there be an argument for avoiding loops (i.e., instead, squashing loops into lines) so that folks can always plan on going in either direction without having to remember which road is which way?

Pearl would work well as a replacement for Monroe Ctr. in that 'Monroe Ctr.-S. Division' line....but having it on Monroe Ctr would be 'picture perfect' don't you think? If the streetcar can flip lights it might actually speed up traffic on that road...well on the other hand it might be too cramped for tracks in both directions, considering its a one-way right now and I wouldn't want to lose any parking there....

OK, let's make it 'Pearl-S. Division'! I can hear the robot (or conductor?) voice now: "Transfer to ... Wealthy-Eastown"... sounds nice, doesn't it!

I wish I were more heavily involved in the study, I'd have a number of questions for Portland's people:

1) Why did Portland spread the line out either 1 or 2 streets apart, one heading North and one heading South? Was it to minimize impact on traffic? Or for some other logistical reason?

2) Why is the Southern portion (the newest section) a dual line in each direction, instead of spread a street apart like the initial phase?

3) If given a chance, would you do anything differently?

I can understand if you were at the red dot, and wanted to head downtown to the green dot, you could just walk over a street and catch the Southbound train, instead of having to take the entire loop around. I think that's one advantage of concentrating lines in a linear fashion vs. a big massive loop around downtown.

If you really want to take an overhead look of Portland's system winjer (and anyone else), go to this link. The image you see is at Hoyt and 10th in the Pearl District. The Northbound streetcar is in the center of the image, the gray line is the light rail line, and a street over to the West (left) is the returning Southbound line. You can follow it around the loop and see some interesting characteristics (radius of the turns, development along the lines, lack of many parking ramps, how the lines are set in relation to on-street parking, etc.).

Interesting to see the amount of surface parking lots in downtown Portland as compared to the Pearl District.

[winjer]

If you really want to take an overhead look of Portland's system winjer (and anyone else), go to this link. The image you see is at Hoyt and 10th in the Pearl District. The Northbound streetcar is in the center of the image, the gray line is the light rail line, and a street over to the West (left) is the returning Southbound line. You can follow it around the loop and see some interesting characteristics (radius of the turns, development along the lines, complete lack of any parking ramps, how the lines are set in relation to on-street parking, etc.).

Yikes, those are some large radius turns. I see that the track changes to the outer lane every time it makes a turn. That's probably why opposite-bound tracks are a couple of blocks apart, eh?

I was in Toronto last summer and the tracks there don't do that, instead they make a horrible scrape/screech noise at every turn. You seriously think the whole thing is about to derail for the first 5 times you hear it.

[GRDadof3]

Yikes, those are some large radius turns. I see that the track changes to the outer lane every time it makes a turn. That's probably why opposite-bound tracks are a couple of blocks apart, eh?

I was in Toronto last summer and the tracks there don't do that, instead they make a horrible scrape/screech noise at every turn. You seriously think the whole thing is about to derail for the first 5 times you hear it.

Ha! Too funny. Those radii (sp?) really caught my attention too. I think I may have just found my answer. The South Gibbs extension (one line two directions) of PDX's streetcar separates from traffic into its own corridor HERE, which is the ultimate way to go if possible. They also have bike lanes on either side of the rail line.

HERE IS that spot where it crosses the campus of Portland State Univ. (?), that you see in so many pictures.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintage...etcar_30_sm.JPG

BTW: Seeing tower cranes in those aerial shots is cool.

[winjer]

Ha! Too funny. Those radii (sp?) really caught my attention too. I think I may have just found my answer. The South Gibbs extension (one line two directions) of PDX's streetcar separates from traffic into its own corridor HERE, which is the ultimate way to go if possible. They also have bike lanes on either side of the rail line.

HERE IS that spot where it crosses the campus of Portland State Univ. (?), that you see in so many pictures.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintage...etcar_30_sm.JPG

I see that both directions sometimes combine into the same track. I guess that's a cost saving measure for routes that aren't going to see a lot of cars all at once. The isolated corridor thing works well for areas dominated by other infrastructure as opposed to destinations...you want to get through there as quickly as possible. But I would argue that you wouldn't want that elsewhere--the whole idea is to put the businesses, traffic, people, and streetcars all in the same glorious urban landscape.

I see that the South Gibbs extension turns into what looks like a standard single rail and then abruptly ends, but it looks like there's some development right at the terminus, in what looks like a former industrial area next to the river.

Woohoo, this is fun. Can someone please give my map to the Rapid big-wigs.

[GRDadof3]

I see that both directions sometimes combine into the same track. I guess that's a cost saving measure for routes that aren't going to see a lot of cars all at once. The isolated corridor thing works well for areas dominated by other infrastructure as opposed to destinations...you want to get through there as quickly as possible. But I would argue that you wouldn't want that elsewhere--the whole idea is to put the businesses, traffic, people, and streetcars all in the same glorious urban landscape.

I see that the South Gibbs extension turns into what looks like a standard single rail and then abruptly ends, but it looks like there's some development right at the terminus, in what looks like a former industrial area next to the river.

Woohoo, this is fun. Can someone please give my map to the Rapid big-wigs.

From what I've read, the South Gibbs line will eventually connect with the massive South Waterfront development, that will be connected to the Oregon Health and Science University way up a hill to the West via the Portland Aerial Tram (which I believe just opened), carrying passengers 500 ft high over Interstate 5 (I've been curiously studying this for a while).

I think it was Kib (who is from Portland) who said that there are some interesting similarities between Portland and Grand Rapids, and that the Pearl District just 5 - 10 years ago was a decrepit industrial area much like Monroe North and the Heartside District.

I agree winjer that the streetcars do make for a more vibrant urban scenery.

[Rizzo]

I can see investing in a neighborhood streetcar line. The lines wouldn't need to be 10 miles long, but rather service a mile or so outside of Downtown. If someone seriously wanted to they could start a grass-roots to see where the idea would go. Maybe one could introduce the idea to neighborhood associations and neighborhood business leaders? These lines could serve as community connectors. In Grand Rapids you have many city districts with their own flavor, with a streetcar to each node or district would make a convincing community improvement tool.

Streetcars are beautiful and carry a kind of romanticism that would instill community pride. With those things in mind I wonder if that could be a tool to generate more 'buzz' that michaelskis so thoroughly put in one his main threads.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Rizzo

[winjer]

OK, I've revised the route as GRDad suggested:

Here's an even more ambitious zoom-out:

[GRDadof3]

I hate to rain on your plans again winjer, but I think once you get outside of the "near-downtown" area, then the light rail lines should not follow the major arteries like Plainfield, Fulton or Alpine. They should then travel on their own ROW, maybe either using a current rail corridor or in a new ROW. There is no benefit of them traveling with auto traffic through the suburbs, and the sooner they can be separated, the more "rapid" they become.

Take a look at Minneapolis' system. In the center of this image is where the Hiawatha line transfers from the 5th St corridor downtown to its own rail line (as it loops to the North of the Metrodome). The line is still under construction in this aerial, but if you toggle to the East and Southeast (right and the right-down) you'll see a bridge under construction and a rail corridor under construction.

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...mp;t=h&om=1

Or even go back to Portland's MAX (not their streetcar). In the middle of this image is where MAX's Red and Blue Lines leave Holloday St heading East and start down the I-84 ROW.

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...mp;t=h&om=1

Here's a park-n-ride station along I-84 with the parking lot under construction in this aerial:

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...&iwloc=addr

They both transfer either to their own corridor or ride down the middle of boulevards once they get out of downtown.

[winjer]

I hate to rain on your plans again winjer, but I think once you get outside of the "near-downtown" area, then the light rail lines should not follow the major arteries like Plainfield, Fulton or Alpine. They should then travel on their own ROW, maybe either using a current rail corridor or in a new ROW. There is no benefit of them traveling with auto traffic through the suburbs, and the sooner they can be separated, the more "rapid" they become.

If we're talking commuter rail I can see what you're saying--use the expressway median. But I'm still thinking streetcars running through urban areas here--they need to be visible, accessible, and should go right in front of businesses...so they pretty much have to be in the existing roads, don't you think? In residential areas it's a different story...but where do you find the ROWs anyway?

What if we had dedicated bus/streetcar lanes? I know a lot of these roads seems to be going to 1 lane in either direction, anyways, just for the sake of traffic calming. (Plainfield and Fulton east of Fuller, for example.) I assume the streetcars will be flipping lights too, which would help. Nobody's expecting them to go faster than a car in traffic...but they have to be able to compete.

Another thing...how do the stops for these things work? Are they on medians right in the middle of the road?

[Rizzo]

They used to be in the middle of the road which further calmed traffic. Now its often to see them much like stops for buses -- off to the side of the street.

I like the idea of an urban streetcar for the city and LRT maybe down through the southside, to Holland, and even Muskegon.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

If we're talking commuter rail I can see what you're saying--use the expressway median. But I'm still thinking streetcars running through urban areas here--they need to be visible, accessible, and should go right in front of businesses...so they pretty much have to be in the existing roads, don't you think? In residential areas it's a different story...but where do you find the ROWs anyway?

What if we had dedicated bus/streetcar lanes? I know a lot of these roads seems to be going to 1 lane in either direction, anyways, just for the sake of traffic calming. (Plainfield and Fulton east of Fuller, for example.) I assume the streetcars will be flipping lights too, which would help. Nobody's expecting them to go faster than a car in traffic...but they have to be able to compete.

Another thing...how do the stops for these things work? Are they on medians right in the middle of the road?

No, they're generally curb-side stations, and then with level boarding for handicapped accessible:

In regard to your other question, you find ROW's wherever you can find them. They're everywhere. I'm not necessarily talking about commuter rail (although light-rail usually serves commuters). I have not yet seen a "streetcar system" in this country brought totally back to life, running down all the streets that buses now travel like the early 1900's. That's not where the greatest need is, it's really expensive, and I don't think it would be successful. The densities in Grand Rapids are just not there. The successful systems, like Portland's, Denver's, Minneapolis', etc. have at grade light rail trains (and/or streetcars) in the downtown/near-downtown area, and then transfer to their own lines separated from traffic once they get out of the "near downtown" areas. Otherwise, they are slow, cumbersome, and no one will ride them.

For instance, where the GR streetcar is suggested to terminate at Newberry, it could eventually be extended up to Leonard via the old rail line that runs along the river, then cross the railroad bridge by Baker Furniture and off to either Coopersville/Marne or the GRE rail line North to Sparta, with 3, 4, 5 stations along the way, several miles apart. Or where the GRE crosses 131, it could pick up the highway ROW and travel along 131. On the SE side, since it is the most dense, light rail trains could travel with traffic until they reach the CSX rail (near Cottage Grove), and then they switch to commuter mode (stops several miles apart. like Alger Heights, Woodland Mall area, Ford Airport). Or streetcars running from downtown to East Grand Rapids via Wealthy and Lake Drive, but not any further than Gaslight Village IMO (too many residential streets beyond that).

http://static.flickr.com/106/277236598_0ddedb326b_o.jpg

All of the successful systems are hybrid streetcar/light rail/commuter rail. They're not series of streetcars going off in every direction and mixing with traffic the whole way. To be honest, I wasn't all that thrilled to hear that a "streetcar system" was being looked at in GR. However, if streetcars are relegated to certain corridors (downtown loop and maybe SE side), and if it leads to a true "light rail" transportation/commuter system, then it will be fantastic!

I admire your view of streetcars cruising down the mainstreets of all the old streetcar neighborhoods of Cheshire Village, Creston, Alger Heights, Burton Heights, etc., but I just don't think that's the right way to go. I'm still wrestling with the idea of who will ride the South Division BRT.

[Rizzo]

Who will ride the South Division BRT? That is a good question, that will probably be answered in the coming months. I think it will probably still be the same crowd that uses the current route plus a few commuters.

Don't forget that a successful system also encompasses feeder bus.

EDIT:

I don't see why a streetcar system serving maybe a mile to two miles outside of Downtown wouldn't work. As far as I can tell that looks like things will be going, especially if they build one line down Monroe as a starter line.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Who will ride the South Division BRT? That is a good question, that will probably be answered in the coming months. I think it will probably still be the same crowd that uses the current route plus a few commuters.

Don't forget that a successful system also encompasses feeder bus.

EDIT:

I don't see why a streetcar system serving maybe a mile to two miles outside of Downtown wouldn't work. As far as I can tell that looks like things will be going, especially if they build one line down Monroe as a starter line.

I would consider 1 - 2 miles from downtown to be "near downtown". I don't exactly know where the defining line would be, and it would depend on the corridor. But I still maintain that the sooner you get the trains out of mixing with traffic, the better.

And if the BRT line is going to be people riding the current bus route, plus a few commuters, why is it being done? Remember that the current bus route is still going to run along South Division. That means they are banking on a lot more than a few commuters.

[Rizzo]

I say have a couple or three streetcar lines stay in the neighborhood districts. If this first installment creates significant development around the line I think it would be beneficial to see more lines installed connecting downtown to say community districts within 2 miles from the core. I think if we just create one line downtown and expect it to circulate bus traffic than we might be shooting ourselves in the foot.

If someone insists on having 'rapid' transit here that can scale as we grow we definitely need to seek other ways into the city. That's something we said before, but the folks at ITP have more information and brain power behind this so there's probably something we don't know. For instances a radical idea could be to shut Division down to two lanes for vehicle access and make the extra two lanes permanently inaccessible only to train or bus. Then I could see that becoming more rapid.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Rizzo

[Allison Slater]

I'd imagine streetcar to W Leonard would be a good idea because it's a short extension of the proposed line, and has a lot of opportunities all along W Leonard.

I'm sure Eastown would do well as well, but the distance could hamper that happening in the near future.

[AlexPKeaton]

I'm not sure if I prefer the Wealthy idea from Eastown or using Lake Drive instead. Lake Drive is more direct, but Wealthy seems to have some up and coming business districts that would compliment a streetcar very well.

I also like the idea of keeping the streetcar on the street pretty much wherever it goes. If we have lines that go way out to the suburbs a streetcar probably isn't appropriate anymore and light rail would be preferable. I suppose GRDad is suggesting that the streetcars can serve both functions. Maybe it's unrealistic of me to expect a two separate rail systems at this point in time as we haven't even gotten one off the ground yet, but that would be my ideal set up.

[GRDadof3]

I'm not sure if I prefer the Wealthy idea from Eastown or using Lake Drive instead. Lake Drive is more direct, but Wealthy seems to have some up and coming business districts that would compliment a streetcar very well.

I also like the idea of keeping the streetcar on the street pretty much wherever it goes. If we have lines that go way out to the suburbs a streetcar probably isn't appropriate anymore and light rail would be preferable. I suppose GRDad is suggesting that the streetcars can serve both functions. Maybe it's unrealistic of me to expect a two separate rail systems at this point in time as we haven't even gotten one off the ground yet, but that would be my ideal set up.

I'm not quite sure what I foresee being the ultimate setup. I think you're right in that steetcars might be limited as far as extending out to the suburbs. I was maybe thinking that the Monroe line could be switched over to LRT vehicles at some point if/when the line gets extended, which can carry more passengers. Pretty much every light rail line in this country that has been built in the last 20 years also serves a dual role as a "streetcar" (mixing with traffic) as they enter downtown districts.

I also think I might be jumping ahead, however, I don't think the streetcar should be instituted without a long range transit master plan drawn up by GVMC or other bodies, so that taxpayers know what the end goal is and timelines (ie 2010 streetcar line 1, 2016 LRT SE line, 2021 West side LRT to GVSU, etc. as examples). It seems to be extremely difficult right now with the current anti-transit mood in Washington to get funding for streetcars, even for communities with proven streetcar success.

[winjer]

I'm not quite sure what I foresee being the ultimate setup. I think you're right in that steetcars might be limited as far as extending out to the suburbs. I was maybe thinking that the Monroe line could be switched over to LRT vehicles at some point if/when the line gets extended, which can carry more passengers. Pretty much every light rail line in this country that has been built in the last 20 years also serves a dual role as a "streetcar" (mixing with traffic) as they enter downtown districts.

I think we're basically on the same page here. Perhaps a rule of thumb should be something like: stay on the street when there is a business center within 1 mile. Try to find a high-speed dedicated ROW when the distance to the next business center is more than 1 mile.

Still the nicer option in my opinion is the dedicated bus/streetcar lane. This would mean getting serious about public transport--i.e. making car traffic worse so that the public transit can be better.