Signature Tower

[Jeeper12]

^ Of course I did. Do you think the developer is really going to point out that he still hasn't a single binding contract ? Of course not. He's going to attempt to continue spoon feeding the media hoping to sound more "certain" of the July groundbreaking so he can try to maintain more credibility with ptential buyers and the public at large. I don't blame the developer for this but I do have to chuckle at how gullible the media continues to be. And, again, I think it's ridiculous that posters on UP continue to digest it and base new optimistic predictions on same.

[titanhog]

The messenger of what ? You guys are starting to sound like a broken record playing the same old garbage over and over. It's really getting to the point that you're just insulting your own intelligence with these posts. After all the discussion on this thread are you still unable to distinguish a reservation from a contract ? Wow, 1/3 sold without a sales center!?!?! Of course, that's bunk but how many sales since the sales center opened ? Unless I missed a pr release disguised as a City Paper article I think the balloon rides still outnumber the hard sales contracts. Thanks for the update though.

Ya know Jeeper...if you would go back and read what I reported, maybe you would understand what I meant by "don't kill the messenger." All I did was regurgitate what Tony G's rep said on tv that this project is a go and breaking ground in July. She also stated that the project was 1/3 sold before the sales office was open. I'm stating what she said, not what I believe. That's called reporting.

I asked "please do not kill the messenger" because I knew YOU would be tempted to do just that...and guess what...you took the bait.

If you are so hell-bent on making sure everyone understands this thing won't happen til he announces who his finances are through, fine...just understand that some of us are going to report what we see and hear...and you don't have to like it.

Believe it or not...if this thing doesn't happen, life will go on for all of us on here...but please allow us to report and speculate without getting bashed and treated as if we're ignorant. We hear what you've been saying for months and you don't have to beat us over the head for us to understand you're position.

[Skyscrapergeek]

titan is right Jeeper. As tired as you are of hearing the same "broken record" of "garbage" about ST there are many who are equally tired of hearing you try to refute every single post about it. I understand your position and appreciate your knowledge of the subject matter but what's the point? I guess it must be said again that, none of us know what will happen but maybe soon enough, one way or the other. Just look at WES. Everyone for the last six months has said it was dead. Doesn't look that way now. Personally, and this is no secret, I'm totally for ST and one of the reasons I even post here. However, I also try to never take any of this that seriously. I've recently begun to avoid your posts (unfortunately) because I pretty much know what your going to say when it comes to ST. Outside of ST, I'm going to guess that we agree on many other things.

Since I'm basically a spectator, I'm just going to sit back, watch and hope for the best with all of these projects.

[elguapo731]

Ya know Jeeper...if you would go back and read what I reported, maybe you would understand what I meant by "don't kill the messenger." All I did was regurgitate what Tony G's rep said on tv that this project is a go and breaking ground in July. She also stated that the project was 1/3 sold before the sales office was open. I'm stating what she said, not what I believe. That's called reporting.

I asked "please do not kill the messenger" because I knew YOU would be tempted to do just that...and guess what...you took the bait.

If you are so hell-bent on making sure everyone understands this thing won't happen til he announces who his finances are through, fine...just understand that some of us are going to report what we see and hear...and you don't have to like it.

Believe it or not...if this thing doesn't happen, life will go on for all of us on here...but please allow us to report and speculate without getting bashed and treated as if we're ignorant. We hear what you've been saying for months and you don't have to beat us over the head for us to understand you're position.

Agreed 100%----

As for the story... It's nice to see Tony G. trying to generate a buzz to help move his project along. That is part of the game and I bet it works on a few people. I don't think Tony G. wants to go down the media barren road Palmer has traveled with his WES. Tony is going to stay out in front and keep that buzz going while his group is working behind the scenes. Overall I think it was a good report about Nashvilles Urban Living.

[chris holman]

Another thing some posters fail to realize just because Tony G doesn't announce every contract being signed does not mean this is not happening. He could have closed on 3 units today four an example, Just he didn't tell the media about it or updated his web site does not mean that progress is not being made.

[Jeeper12]

You guys can post anything you want and "regurgitate" as much of the propaganda as you deem appropriate. But don't be personally offended when myself or another Planeteer take the opportunity on occasion to set the record straight so unsuspecting readers (members, media or otherwise) don't get mislead by certain posts. A newcomer to the board shouldn't have to absorb 4 months of discussion behind a thread in order to draw a reasonably informed opinon about issues related to the topic at hand. Obviously, not everyone (including the news 5 reporter) necessarilly understand the differences between a refundable reservation and a binding sales contract but, like it or not, everyone of you that posted gripes today have been clear on this point for many months. The ST isn't 1/3 sold and to date there's been no indication that they've even begun the process of converting reservations to contracts. We've had ridiculously ample discussion on this board about how big a hurdle this is so it's misleading (intentionally or otherwise) to suggest (or regurgitate suggestions) that this milestone is behind this developer.

In hindsight I agree with you that my post yesterday could have probably been made more effectively with a little less sarcasm. But if you endeavor as much as I do to see this board realize its potential to be a valued and trusted resource for the Nashville public to become more informed about issues relating to the built environment you'll join me in trying to make sure that posts aren't misleading, regardless of where you come down on a given topic or issue.

[titanhog]

You guys can post anything you want and "regurgitate" as much of the propaganda as you deem appropriate. But don't be personally offended when myself or another Planeteer take the opportunity on occasion to set the record straight so unsuspecting readers (members, media or otherwise) don't get mislead by certain posts. A newcomer to the board shouldn't have to absorb 4 months of discussion behind a thread in order to draw a reasonably informed opinon about issues related to the topic at hand. Obviously, not everyone (including the news 5 reporter) necessarilly understand the differences between a refundable reservation and a binding sales contract but, like it or not, everyone of you that posted gripes today have been clear on this point for many months. The ST isn't 1/3 sold and to date there's been no indication that they've even begun the process of converting reservations to contracts. We've had ridiculously ample discussion on this board about how big a hurdle this is so it's misleading (intentionally or otherwise) to suggest (or regurgitate suggestions) that this milestone is behind this developer.

In hindsight I agree with you that my post yesterday could have probably been made more effectively with a little less sarcasm. But if you endeavor as much as I do to see this board realize its potential to be a valued and trusted resource for the Nashville public to become more informed about issues relating to the built environment you'll join me in trying to make sure that posts aren't misleading, regardless of where you come down on a given topic or issue.

So what you are saying is that even though we have said we understand what you are saying about Signature Tower's lack of official financial disclosure, we should add a disclaimer to all information we find and post on this topic?

Now...does that mean we should not display words directly quoted from someone's mouth that is associated directly with Signature Tower? Are you saying we should keep quiet until Tony announces his financial terms of this project?

I truly want to know what it is you want.

I understand your frustration with those who say this is a done deal (such as Tony's realty company) and the sunshine pumpers that believe this will happen no matter what. But can you understand the frustration some of us feel with your constant attempt to set the world straight on each and every post, even if it is just someone posting a direct quote from Tony's staff?

I personally want to hear what Tony's people have to say...and I want to hear what the naysayers have to say.

Believe it or not Jeepers, most of us have not just fallen off the turnip truck. Don't mistake positive comments on ST as being naiive assumptions.

[titanhog]

By the way...Tony's realty company rep says that 30% of the units in ST are SOLD. Take it up with her if you know for a fact they're not sold and feel free to dispute it here. Please show us some proof, though.

[Jeeper12]

By the way...Tony's realty company rep says that 30% of the units in ST are SOLD. Take it up with her if you know for a fact they're not sold and feel free to dispute it here. Please show us some proof, though.

I don't need to contact them. If what you say is true, and I still contend (admittedly without "proof") that it is not, the media will be lined up outside of Tony's office in the morning (go get 'em, Richard !!) after reading this scoop on UP for the opportunity to have first shot to report that Tony has essentially converted almost all of his reported reservations to binding contracts. Who knew ? Now THAT would indeed be a big story and you would hear nothing out of me except congratulations to his team for clearing a hurdle that I thought they wouldn't. Of course, it wouldn't be the last of the problems needing a solution but, again, it would be an important milestone IMO worthy of some media ink. So, why don't we all just chill for a day or two and wait for the story....or titanhog's confirmation that Tony's staff was just being a wee bit loose with the definition of "sold" again.

Believe it or not Jeepers, most of us have not just fallen off the turnip truck.

I've never suggested anything like that about most of the forumers. And for the record I think the tendency of some to overstate the progress on this project stems more from skyscraper boosterism than any educational or IQ deficiency. I've never discouraged anyone from posting, but again, don't take it so personal when someone with a different opinion offers respectful criticism of some comments/posts. I certainly don't.

So what you are saying is that even though we have said we understand what you are saying about Signature Tower's lack of official financial disclosure, we should add a disclaimer to all information we find and post on this topic?

No, I just think it would be kind of neat if all the regulars on this forum regularly posted in a way that demonstrated reasonable working knowledge about some of the things we've spent so much time discussing today and in the past. Nevermind whether I think you may have fallen off of a turnip truck (I don't btw). I just think it would be more important to post in a way that doesn't cause UP'ers from bigger markets that might occasionally drop in for a look to come away feeling that way; "Do those hillbilly's on the set of heehaw have a clue what it takes to get a project off the ground ?". That means if a reporter or a developer (one you like or one you don't like) says something stupid or just delivers info in a way that suggests their audience just fell off a turnip truck, try not to simply "regurgitate" it without at least demonstrating you understand the distinction. Just my opinion though. Peace.

P.S. I'm a big country music fan and consider myself a hillbilly at heart.

[samsonh]

FWIW I was like Titan and frustrated with Jeepers, now I realize that he is exactly right. They have not "sold" a single thing. I'd love to see this building built but I really doubt that it will be in its current design. A reservation is completely different than a sale. You guys need to realize this.

[monsoon]

Let's review what we have established about this project. First a "sale" does not occur until a real estate closing has happened. And a closing can't happen unless there is real property which in this case doesn't exist. So 30% of the units have not sold to anyone.

Now there may be a binding sales contract that says if the developer moves forward with this project then the party of the contract is obligated to purchase one of the units once the unit is certified to be occupied. Usually there is a significant deposit required in these cases as well which the buyer will lose if they don't follow through with purchasing the unit and the developer may have rights to sue the buyer for additional damages up to the total price of the unit. The buyer may also be responsible for paying the real estate agent depending upon the arrangements they have. (not sure if Tenn supports buyers agency agreements) There may be certain escape clauses and/or expiration dates, but anyone signing a sales contract better be absolutely ready to purchase the unit.

Now this differs from the "reservations" that were presented here a year ago. At least if one reads the document that was posted on the Signature Tower's website, this was a reservation which would allow one to be first in line to put a sales contract onto a particular unit. Since there was a sizeable but refundable deposit required, which I would guess was to weed out all but serious buyers, then it appears he managed to get about 1/3 of the units "reserved" including the penthouse(s). This number rose quickly the first few months after the project was announced and then remained pretty stagnant ever since. This is based on posts made on UrbanPlanet about the project. The important thing to remember here, was this reservation only held a place in line for someone to put a "sales contract" in place. They were free to walk away with no penalty.

So the question is this. How many of these "reservations" were actually converted to "sales contracts" and does this represent the 30% the developer is referring to? The statements are ambiguous enough where this isn't really known. Unless someone wants to provide information that does establish this, I really don't think anyone can state this project is moving forward with the information available so far. I will point out that no developer will give bad news about their project until the day comes that it is canceled or radically changed. When the day comes where he actually submits plans to the city for a building permit(s) then I think you could state this project is actually moving towards a ground breaking.

[jcoop]

So the question is this. How many of these "reservations" were actually converted to "sales contracts" and does this represent the 30% the developer is referring to? The statements are ambiguous enough where this isn't really known. Unless someone wants to provide information that does establish this, I really don't think anyone can state this project is moving forward with the information available so far. I will point out that no developer will give bad news about their project until the day comes that it is canceled or radically changed. When the day comes where he actually submits plans to the city for a building permit(s) then I think you could state this project is actually moving towards a ground breaking.

Exactly, and everyone wants to try and guess what it really means. I agree that it's more likely the reservations have not all been converted because we would have heard about it, but there's no guarantee that is the case. I would say that news report was the biggest thing we had heard so far that stated "30% sold" but as metro stated, they couldn't actually be "sold" so it very well may have been an ambiguous technique...I'll just keep saying time will tell

[Plasticman]

Maybe Tony could change his website and actuallly list units sold once the reservations are converted. If the sales go as he seesm to expect them to, that would only fuel more sales. IMO, the more that sell the more likely the project is, the more likely it is the more that will sell. I would also venture that once construction actually starts, sales will take a sharp turn upward as well. Summing it up, as speculation turns to reality, the sales will increase.

This of course assumes that the sales totals are anyone's business other than the buyers, the financiers, Mr. G.'s company, and other parties with a vested interest in this development.

[Jeeper12]

I would say that news report was the biggest thing we had heard so far that stated "30% sold" but as metro stated, they couldn't actually be "sold" so it very well may have been an ambiguous technique.

I may be sounding like a definitional hardass but I don't think we need to concern ourselves with the distinction between binding contracts (with substancial non-refundable deposits) and closed units for the purpose of defining "sold". Obviously, no closings will occur until a project is completed but it's probably more useful to know where the developer stands w/ his buyers contractually. So, I wouldn't be critical of Tony or anyone else for claiming to be "30% sold" if they had binding non-refundable contracts representing that amount of their project. (However, I may still chuckle or crack a joke if the deposit amount at risk is so paltry that it amounts to less than 4-5 days skiing in CO.) I think it's more important that everyone simply be aware (and at times weary) of the distinction between the binding contract and the refundable $5k reservation that tends to evaporate like a mirage when put to the conversion test.

[Richard Lawson]

I may be sounding like a definitional hardass but I don't think we need to concern ourselves with the distinction between binding contracts (with substancial non-refundable deposits) and closed units for the purpose of defining "sold". Obviously, no closings will occur until a project is completed but it's probably more useful to know where the developer stands w/ his buyers contractually. So, I wouldn't be critical of Tony or anyone else for claiming to be "30% sold" if they had binding non-refundable contracts representing that amount of their project. (However, I may still chuckle or crack a joke if the deposit amount at risk is so paltry that it amounts to less than 4-5 days skiing in CO.) I think it's more important that everyone simply be aware (and at times weary) of the distinction between the binding contract and the refundable $5k reservation that tends to evaporate like a mirage when put to the conversion test.

Yes one has to look at the conversion rate. Sometimes units like these get "sold" many times.

[Jeeper12]

Maybe Tony could change his website and actuallly list units sold once the reservations are converted. If the sales go as he seesm to expect them to, that would only fuel more sales. IMO, the more that sell the more likely the project is, the more likely it is the more that will sell. I would also venture that once construction actually starts, sales will take a sharp turn upward as well. Summing it up, as speculation turns to reality, the sales will increase.

My good friend, Plasticman, you've hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no reason for Tony or any other developer NOT to report every bit of legitimite progress because, as you say, it tends to "fuel more sales". Same is true for Alex Palmer. Naming the tenants constituting his claimed 40% would only lead to more tenants and more condo buyers. So, just a little bit of common sense suggests that these guys will report every inch of progress (with a press release, no doubt) to help sustain (or generate) momentum. BTW, I don't fault the developers for trying to spin no news into news if they can get away with it. I simply offer you and the others some ability (if you lacked it previously) to see through some of the smoke and have a more informed opinion about the true status of things.

[titanhog]

Jeeper and Metro...I hope both of you know that I respect your comments and views...and that I in no way disagree with your assessments of this project.

Where I differ is here: me reporting what one of Tony's representatives said and how she said it would appear to me to be exactly what this sight is for. It is information straight from the horse's mouth (or at least the horse's mouthpiece).

Now...I agree...not one of these units will be officially "sold" until closing when the bldg. is completed...but she did use the word "sold" when the moderator asked her. Does she mean "gone to contract" or just reserved? I don't know for sure. I imagine "reserved".

I would like to ask both of you to consider this: you have a strong view as to how each poster on here should word their statements as to not insinuate this is a done deal...and I agree to some extent...but since you both have much more knowledge on this subject than most of us "laymen" (seriously...not meant as a snide remark) , would you mind correcting us in a bit gentler way?

Many of us are trying to add to this forum in any way we can and as far as I remember, we were not asked to show proof of our knowledge of construction, architecture, design, development, etc before starting to post our point of views.

[Richard Lawson]

Jeeper and Metro...I hope both of you know that I respect your comments and views...and that I in no way disagree with your assessments of this project.

Where I differ is here: me reporting what one of Tony's representatives said and how she said it would appear to me to be exactly what this sight is for. It is information straight from the horse's mouth (or at least the horse's mouthpiece).

Now...I agree...not one of these units will be officially "sold" until closing when the bldg. is completed...but she did use the word "sold" when the moderator asked her. Does she mean "gone to contract" or just reserved? I don't know for sure. I imagine "reserved".

I would like to ask both of you to consider this: you have a strong view as to how each poster on here should word their statements as to not insinuate this is a done deal...and I agree to some extent...but since you both have much more knowledge on this subject than most of us "laymen" (seriously...not meant as a snide remark) , would you mind correcting us in a bit gentler way?

Many of us are trying to add to this forum in any way we can and as far as I remember, we were not asked to show proof of our knowledge of construction, architecture, design, development, etc before starting to post our point of views.

Typically when a real estate broker says "sold" it means under contract. With these condos, sold also means reserved. So there has to be a distinction made. A question to the person would be does sold in this case mean reservation or under contract

[ATLBrain]

Kind of surprising that the "reporter" didn't clarify with Giarratana.

[Jeeper12]

Jeeper and Metro...I hope both of you know that I respect your comments and views...and that I in no way disagree with your assessments of this project.

Where I differ is here: me reporting what one of Tony's representatives said and how she said it would appear to me to be exactly what this sight is for. It is information straight from the horse's mouth (or at least the horse's mouthpiece).

Now...I agree...not one of these units will be officially "sold" until closing when the bldg. is completed...but she did use the word "sold" when the moderator asked her. Does she mean "gone to contract" or just reserved? I don't know for sure. I imagine "reserved".

I would like to ask both of you to consider this: you have a strong view as to how each poster on here should word their statements as to not insinuate this is a done deal...and I agree to some extent...but since you both have much more knowledge on this subject than most of us "laymen" (seriously...not meant as a snide remark) , would you mind correcting us in a bit gentler way?

Many of us are trying to add to this forum in any way we can and as far as I remember, we were not asked to show proof of our knowledge of construction, architecture, design, development, etc before starting to post our point of views.

titanhog,

Thanks for the comments. I hope you understand that I in no way want to stifle discussion on this board, only raise awareness. To that end, I think our discussion yesterday and today has been fruitful. Maybe some other media folks (other than Richard) will tune in for a crash course on contracts. You make many fair points and and I appreciate the extent that you often go to be tactful. In turn, I will from this day forward endeavor to be a kinder and gentler Jeeper.

Respectfully,

Jeeper

[monsoon]

...... This of course assumes that the sales totals are anyone's business other than the buyers, the financiers, Mr. G.'s company, and other parties with a vested interest in this development.

Generally this information is published because buyers will need to know what is available vs what is taken. I assume that he could keep the info to himself, but this is going to make sales very difficult since nobody will be able to evaluate the project for their personal need. And of course if they were selling like hotcakes, then the developer would not be a very good marketeer if he didn't have a "get one while you can" promotion. This is a fairly common technique if demand for sales contracts are there.

[Plasticman]

Generally this information is published because buyers will need to know what is available vs what is taken. I assume that he could keep the info to himself, but this is going to make sales very difficult since nobody will be able to evaluate the project for their personal need. And of course if they were selling like hotcakes, then the developer would not be a very good marketeer if he didn't have a "get one while you can" promotion. This is a fairly common technique if demand for sales contracts are there.

That's a good point. My gut instinct for what it's worth is that the conversions have started but he just hasn't released the data yet. I'm sure once he is satisfied that enough conversions are done, he will update the media. In other words, I doubt we will get play by play but sporadic updates. To be realistic, one can acknowledge that the 140 or so reservations are not sales but one must also acknowledge that a large portion of those will result in an actual sale. If anyone has numbers on typical reservations vs. conversions as a %, that would be interesting to know. I do believe he should update his site to include actual sales and also release information on the upper floors. He doesn't have to name the buyer, just acknowledge the units that are officially taken.

And there is still the hotel to play into this. At some point, an investor in said hotel will fork out some millions as well. With an upper-class hotel chain like Kimpton managing it, it would seem an easy sell. Is it beyond reason to suspect TG himself may be the primary investor in the hotel portion?

A lot to think about. Now my brain is full so you'll have to excuse me.

[BrandonTO416]

Its great to see the Signature Tower is reporting 30% pre-sales, the tower sounds like its pretty much a go for construction. I remember the Viridian talk and negativity surrounding that building, and once again it rose and its finished.

Hopefully construction can start by the end of summer.

[monsoon]

..... If anyone has numbers on typical reservations vs. conversions as a %, that would be interesting to know. I do believe he should update his site to include actual sales and also release information on the upper floors. ......

There is no typical number for something like this. Some properties are so hot they don't even bother with a year long reservations step. They instead hold lotteries to determine who can place a sales contract on a unit. On the other hand, and as posted here in this thread, some projects don't get built despite the building claiming 80% sales.

Like I said above, the building permits will be the first real clue that something is moving forward.

[J0e]

On my way to school this morning, I saw two hot air balloons gearing up for take off in Elmington Park [in front of West End Middle]. One balloon had a bag printed with the Vanderbilt Medical Center logo and the other was none other than the logo for Signature Tower. I suppose that Tony G is taking his advertising to new "heights."