East Beltline Developments

[GRDadof3]

I'd bet an ArtPrize T-shirt that Building "N" becomes a chain pharmacy (with a triangular, bi-directional logo feature high up) and it goes in without a private access drive from the adjacent roadways.

 

I don't know, with D&W pharmacy and Meijer's recently expanded pharmacy, it'd be hard to carve out any business. But there aren't any Walgreens type places around there.

 

Building N sits about 25 feet below the East Beltline, so I'm sure you're correct there.

[Quercus]

Maybe the local Applebee's "Neighborhood" Bar & Grill will move half a mile north and pay homage to the former, respectable land use.

The new site plan might just be a Rogvoy masterpiece.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Quercus

[MJLO]

Why can't they just put the friggen parking behind the building and the stores to the street infrastructure to at least give the "appearance" of a lifestyle center?       How is it that places like Lansing and Fort Wayne have these types of developments and Grand Rapids hasn't gotten on the ball with them yet?   GR is ahead of the curve on so much, but light years behind when it comes to attractive suburban development that's just as crucial to an areas success as the health of the core. 

[x99]

Here's the new site plan. Like the most recent iteration of this project back when Benner was still fighting forward, the "village" concept has pretty much been done away with. Looks like they are going to keep the "street" though and build parking around it. Strange...

 

Wow.  That site plan is absolutely, completely, totally awful.  It's like a bad strip mall.  I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.  Lormax did it at Centerpointe, and it worked to my extreme disgust and amazement, so why not do it again, right?  They'll just rip it down and re-do it in 30 years anyway. 

[GR_Urbanist]

What more can be said?

 

This is a complete fail from start to finish. The lifestyle center is dead, and now this will become a gigantic strip-ish mall. Maybe a "pretty" one, but still a strip of buildings behind a sea of parking.

 

And there isnt much that will stop more of this on the E. Beltline. You cant put that toothpaste back into the tube. With tons of prime real estate from Fulton to Versluis Lake, this is only going to be the start of the 28th Street-ing of the whole corridor.

 

Sadly it's pretty much what I predicted almost a decade ago:

 

 

Will this project be completed at the same time or will they hit "snags" along the way and we end up with a "compromise village", where we have large, visible parking lots, blank wall buildings, no residential, and dozens of retailers that decided to build near this project following none of the basic elements of the "village" concept?

 

Well...yes, 2005, that's pretty much what happened. Sorry.

[GRDadof3]

What more can be said?

 

This is a complete fail from start to finish. The lifestyle center is dead, and now this will become a gigantic strip-ish mall. Maybe a "pretty" one, but still a strip of buildings behind a sea of parking.

 

And there isnt much that will stop more of this on the E. Beltline. You cant put that toothpaste back into the tube. With tons of prime real estate from Fulton to Versluis Lake, this is only going to be the start of the 28th Street-ing of the whole corridor.

 

Sadly it's pretty much what I predicted almost a decade ago:

 

 

Well...yes, 2005, that's pretty much what happened. Sorry.

 

 

Actually, there's not as much large-scale land along the Beltline as one would think. It's all filled in up to Knapp, and then it greatly narrows between Knapp and 3 Mile. The West side along that stretch will be mostly office buildings, since the depth is only a couple of hundred feet before you bump up against residential. The East side is riddled with small lakes and wetlands between the Knapp's Crossing project and Spectrum. You can expect a couple more office buildings there. The Herkner owned land behind Noodles will probably see something soon, I'm guessing.

 

Then you have from 3 Mile up to 4 Mile a mixture of church owned land, Kuyper College, and then Robinette's (which probably will be developed some day). The church on the corner and the landfill on the East side north of 4 Mile prevents much from happening on that side, other than the office park that is going in already. West side is Robinette's again, and a few parcels.

 

In essence, what happened along 28th Street, Alpine and even Rivertown Crossings will be difficult to replicate in Kent County now (thankfully).

[twoshort]

Personally, I can't believe they didn't consult any of you in their design work, given your experience in developing large scale retail.

 

#bunchacomplainers.

[Veloise]

...

#bunchacomplainers.

It would be nice to not have future "what were they thinking??" sites to serve as stops on Planning Commission bus tours and test questions for planner applicants.

[GRDadof3]

Why can't they just put the friggen parking behind the building and the stores to the street infrastructure to at least give the "appearance" of a lifestyle center?       How is it that places like Lansing and Fort Wayne have these types of developments and Grand Rapids hasn't gotten on the ball with them yet?   GR is ahead of the curve on so much, but light years behind when it comes to attractive suburban development that's just as crucial to an areas success as the health of the core. 

 

I think maybe they realize that the lifestyle center "fad" has probably come and gone. That form of mall development didn't really change land use anywhere. Only a few of them had a residential component, which was maybe a fraction of the thousands of people who shop at lifestyle centers. They're just malls with the roof taken off.

[GR_Urbanist]

Personally, I can't believe they didn't consult any of you in their design work, given your experience in developing large scale retail.

 

#bunchacomplainers.

 

 

You dont need experience to see that this is what was done countless times in the past 50 years. That it has led to more and more tacky developments that eat up more and more land, that then are abandoned to 3rd tier retailers once the money has moved further and further away from the sprawl. To then become something like 28th street in Wyoming or Alpine, where you then have to spend hundreds of millions and decades to make it look like it should have looked 50 years ago.

 

You cannot look at this and say "no complaints" and then demand that developers inside of GR adhere to a bunch of urbanism standards that make it impossible to do the same here.

 

This thing is pure garbage that will lead to more of it. That's not theory. It is a fact. These developers aren't using some science for this. They lined the back end of the site with cheaply constructed cinder block boxes, pave the rest for parking, put in some perfunctory trees and shrubs, and then flood the whole site with bright lights on tall poles. All that is left is to give it a goofy name to commemorate what was plowed under to make this (ex. Knapp's Orchard Retail Center), and you're done.

[MJLO]

I think maybe they realize that the lifestyle center "fad" has probably come and gone. That form of mall development didn't really change land use anywhere. Only a few of them had a residential component, which was maybe a fraction of the thousands of people who shop at lifestyle centers. They're just malls with the roof taken off.

 

 

This makes sense to me.   What do you think would best fit here?

[wingbert]

 All that is left is to give it a goofy name to commemorate what was plowed under to make this (ex. Knapp's Orchard Retail Center), and you're done.

 

Well, in the spirit of the Downtown Market I think the development should be called Shopping Center At The Corner of Knapp And The Beltline.

[mpchicago]

A trip down memory lane to see how this site plan as morphed:  http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/17648-village-of-orchard-hills-and-the-village-at-knapps-crossing/?p=938278

 

This parcel is in the City of Grand Rapids.  I have a feeling that Suzanne Schulz & Co., aren't  just going to raise their hands, and say we give up - build your crappy strip mall. They have already put too much energy into this corner. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by mpchicago

[GRDadof3]

This makes sense to me.   What do you think would best fit here?

 

A giant strip mall. I mean seriously, whether the buildings face each other or face the Beltline, what does it matter from a land use perspective. However, I do think the Northern end of the project could use some medium to high density residential. At least THOSE people who would live there can do quite a few activities car free.

[joeDowntown]

On the other hand (or side of the street), theres celebration village, which in my opinion is absolutely horrible, has terrible parking (on street and behind buildings), so let's be careful what we wish for.

I also agree with read on the Beltline. There is a lot less usable space than you'd think. Luckily, I don't think the Beltline will be built up like we once worried about. spectrum just developed the last corner of 3 mile, 4 mile isn't going to change in the near future and five mile is apartments and office buildings. I think the chance of it building up to be the next 28th street is next to nil. Which is a good thing.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

I went to the hearing today but the Mac property took about 2 hours so didn't get to see any of the Knapp's Crossing presentation. Nothing on the newswires either yet.

[joeDowntown]

Anyone hear any news from the hearing about this project yet?

Joe

[Gorath]

Mllive has a news story about it. You may have missed it as it has a strange or misleading headline.

Play City Planner: Design this 'marvelous piece of dirt' near Celebration Village

[GRDadof3]

 

Mllive has a news story about it. You may have missed it as it has a strange or misleading headline.

Play City Planner: Design this 'marvelous piece of dirt' near Celebration Village

 

 

 

Interesting comments from the planning commissioners. I hope Lormax Stern doesn't bail and it ends up sitting like it is for another decade.

 

I do think the submitted site plan is a mess and shouldn't try to be a weird hybrid of both concepts. Seems like they could re-orient some of their proposed building locations J, K, L and M to make it somewhat of a "street" again, without sacrificing the parking they're looking to add.

[joeDowntown]

Agreed. I'm hoping they want in with the bare minimum to see how much pushback they'd get. I don't like the quote about "getting in, getting out". I think this could be a very walkable development. At least from store to store, or restaurant to shopping.

I hope the city sticks to their guns and makes them improve upon what they have. But I don't know if I agree that it has to be 100% lifestyle center. I've seen a few on the east side of the state that are pretty empty (after opening with a lot of tenants).

I actually wish CWD were involved in this. I like what they are doing at the old MAC site and lormax statements make me think they are milking A 'good piece of dirt' more than a good development.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

Agreed. I'm hoping they want in with the bare minimum to see how much pushback they'd get. I don't like the quote about "getting in, getting out". I think this could be a very walkable development. At least from store to store, or restaurant to shopping.

I hope the city sticks to their guns and makes them improve upon what they have. But I don't know if I agree that it has to be 100% lifestyle center. I've seen a few on the east side of the state that are pretty empty (after opening with a lot of tenants).

I actually wish CWD were involved in this. I like what they are doing at the old MAC site and lormax statements make me think they are milking A 'good piece of dirt' more than a good development.

Joe

 

 

I was going to say that taking a page from CWD's Mac property proposal would be a good idea. Obviously the Cabela's CWD development is pretty suburban in nature but they see the value in trying something different near EGR.

 

There's a happy medium somewhere that I think the PC would approve. Rick Treur mentioned housing at the far Northern end of the site, which I've mentioned here, but I was talking about property that is being sold separetly than what Lormax Stern is looking at. Glad to see that's being pushed though.

[x99]

There's a happy medium somewhere that I think the PC would approve. Rick Treur mentioned housing at the far Northern end of the site, which I've mentioned here, but I was talking about property that is being sold separetly than what Lormax Stern is looking at. Glad to see that's being pushed though.

 

The last comment on the linked article quoted them say saying they know what works, and won't be doing residential.  Sadly, I don't think they're completely off on the whole "easy in, easy out" bit.  It seem to have something in common with the downtown retail parking issues I mentioned in the parking ramp thread.  Studies have apparently shown that if people cannot see the front door of your store from their parking space, they perceive it as being a long walk and won't go there, even if the walk from the outer edges of the parking lot is much farther than parking somewhere out of sight of the door.  This worked at Centerpointe. The old layout was actually much better if you wanted to visit more than one store.  However, none of the stores were visible.  Now that the stores are all visible from the parking lot--BOOM--tenants galore.  The new layout for Orchard Hills is terrible, but it is also "by the book 'what works'".

[GRDadof3]

FYI, the developers are working on revising the site plan, according to the planning dept. Anyone know what they're getting this property for? I bet it's quite a steal out of bankruptcy.

[twoshort]

Anyone know what they're getting this property for? I bet it's quite a steal out of bankruptcy.

 

"Bankruptcy court filings this week include an agreement for a $3.98 million sale to Pioneer Ventures, a limited liability company formed by Sid Jansma, Jr., president and CEO of Wolverine Gas & Oil Corp."

[GRDadof3]

"Bankruptcy court filings this week include an agreement for a $3.98 million sale to Pioneer Ventures, a limited liability company formed by Sid Jansma, Jr., president and CEO of Wolverine Gas & Oil Corp."

 

Whoa. An article from back in March had this:

 

Benner’s petition also stated the property has an $11 million mortgage held by the International Bank of Chicago, another $4 million mortgage held by Comerica Bank, and an $800,000 mortgage held by First Community Bank of Harbor Springs.

 

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2013/08/village_at_knapps_crossing_in.html

 

So Wolverine pays $3.98 Million and gets about $3.5 Million in land and probably at least that much in infrastructure.

 

How much was Benner looking for to get it going again? He had an ad out or something?

 

Ah, here it is. $5.9 Million to be a 50/50 partner:

 

http://www.bizquest.com/buy-a-business-for-sale/village-at-knapps-crossing/1019048.html?oml=1