East Beltline Developments

[civitas]

Final approved site plan. I have to say the "parking to building ratio" looks a lot better than past proposals.

Benner has 3 cars per 1,000 SF of retail space when the norm is 5 cars per 1,000 SF. We'll see if national tenants will accept that ratio.

It may be nice that there are fewer cars visible to the East Beltline, but the site needs to accommodate enough cars to satisfy the uses.

I underestand that the planning commission will still need to review the details of parking, grading, etc. before he can build anything.

[GRDadof3]

Update on the Village of Orchard Hills project (on the 3 Mile corner). They had a meeting at the township hall last night, where they were requesting a major amendment to their LC-PUD:

) They're dropping about 15 acres from the project EAST of Dunnigan Ave, that was to be used for stormwater detention. Wasn't able to find out what happens to all that stormwater detention.

) They've changed the layout of the housing units from a long row of townhouses to groupings of stacked units around central courtyards. The style looks similar to the new Celadon New Town development nearby on Knapp being built. The number of residential units is remaining the same at around 150. The residential plans were drawn up by Visbeen Associates.

) They've flipped the development, and the large Anchor "A" has been moved to the South end of the property and enlarged. It now looks like it's close to 75 - 100,000 square feet, and will be two stories. They are in "heavy negotiations" with two clothing department stores. Anchor B, the grocery store, has been put at the Northern end of the development.

) Two courtyards in the village area continue as greenspace/sidewalks East to the residential portion, and link up with courtyards/greenspace in the residential. Nice continuity.

) Elevations were shown of the retail buildings, which look like typical "lifestyle village" storefronts similar to the other village proposal, Gaslight Village, etc.

) All the proposed outlots along 3 Mile appear to have been dropped, except for a bank/restaurant spot at the corner of 3 Mile/EBL.

) They have committed leases on 55,000 square feet of the "small shop" spaces, with final negotiations on the remaining spaces.

) They have signed a bookstore.

) The developer reiterated that CBL, the 3rd largest retail manager in the country, is a partner on the development.

My rough rendition of changes to the site plan, with a sampling of the residential groupings. Anchors in red and blue:

Things seem to be heating up again.

[AlexPKeaton]

What sort of market do these types of developments target for the residential portion? I can't imagine anybody buying a condo with a view of a parking lot. Living here would be the worst of both worlds, it's sort of faux-urban, but doesn't have a true urban feel to it, and it's not at the end of a quiet, tree-line cul-de-sac like typical suburbia. Do developers just throw token housing into the project so they can claim it's mixed-use?

[GRDadof3]

What sort of market do these types of developments target for the residential portion? I can't imagine anybody buying a condo with a view of a parking lot. Living here would be the worst of both worlds, it's sort of faux-urban, but doesn't have a true urban feel to it, and it's not at the end of a quiet, tree-line cul-de-sac like typical suburbia. Do developers just throw token housing into the project so they can claim it's mixed-use?

I question that too. It's pretty much an untested product in this marketplace. Or similar developments have had mixed results. Plus, they show some of the stacked units along Dunnigan, which isn't even close to being an "urban street". The houses East of Dunnigan are all on multi-acre wooded and ravine lots and sit way back from the road. Although, the entire character of Dunnigan is going to change when that 1/2 mile stretch is flattened out, widened (with curbs and gutters I believe) and with a bike trail/sidewalk added on the West side.

That might be why Visbeen added the courtyards, to at least give some kind of "green amenity". In order to sell them, and by how high-end the renderings looked, I imagine they'll landscape the heck out of the area between the residential units and the parking lot.

Apparently someone from the Press was there too

(*Disclaimer: I own real estate in that area which is why I was notified of the meeting)

[twoshort]

What sort of market do these types of developments target for the residential portion?

Lifestyle Center living is teh hotness, just ask this guy:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/subprime

[GRDadof3]

Lifestyle Center living is teh hotness, just ask this guy:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/subprime

I don't think that article reflects reality. It's easy to point out a few suburban neighborhoods that have startling foreclosure rates, as the article points out in that neighborhood in Charlotte. But that hardly represents a "trend". If you go to any large metro area, the suburbs are still bursting at the seams. Even Metro Detroit, which is losing population and in its worst housing market ever, is still building homes like crazy in the far Northern suburbs like Washington Twp. And if you look at a map of Kent County foreclosures, they are predominantly in the city.

Even though every UrbanPlanet section has a lot of urban developments highlighted, for every one condo being built in an urban area, there are 20 homes being built in the burbs. The U.S. housing market will pick right back up again by mid-2009 in most markets (except maybe California, Florida and Vegas), and McMansions will continue to be all the rage.

[NorthCoast]

From what I've heard...Spartan Stores/D&W Fresh Market has pulled out of the Village of Orchard Hills and switched over to the Knapp's Crossing development.

Edited February 27, 2008 by j3shafer

[GRDadof3]

From what I've heard...Spartan Stores/D&W Fresh Market has pulled out of the Village of Orchard Hills and switched over to the Knapp's Crossing development.

That might explain the reconfiguration of the anchors.

[NorthCoast]

That might explain the reconfiguration of the anchors.

I won't divulge my source b/c I don't know just how 'classified' that information is but I can assure you it was reliable.

[GRDadof3]

I won't divulge my source b/c I don't know just how 'classified' that information is but I can assure you it was reliable.

No, I would tend to believe it. I was always surprised that D&W would be part of a development like what it is they are trying to put together anyway. I think D&W was just leftover from when (I believe) they owned the land and were planning on putting a new store there years ago, and then Kevin Einfeld of bdr entered the picture.

The conceptual plan for the Northern anchor did show a drive through on the Northern or Eastern side, but the developer was quick to point out that they were not seeking approval for a drive through at that particular meeting.

[AlexPKeaton]

Even though every UrbanPlanet section has a lot of urban developments highlighted, for every one condo being built in an urban area, there are 20 homes being built in the burbs. The U.S. housing market will pick right back up again by mid-2009 in most markets (except maybe California, Florida and Vegas), and McMansions will continue to be all the rage.

I think the suburban buildout has peaked. Yes, there will still be more of it, but with the housing bust and ever higher oil prices I think the long-term trend is changing. We're just at the very beginning. It took 50 years to fully abandon our cities and it might take another 50 to move back.

The thing that I really found interesting about the article was how much more expensive downtown real estate is per square foot and how developers are going to have to target the lower end to make living downtown affordable. The thing is, I'm not sure how realistic that is. Certainly suburban living will become relatively more expensive with high energy prices, but if a lot of the cost of living downtown is because of higher building prices, then I don't see how it will become more affordable. And, as people continue moving into urban areas, land prices themselves will only increase.

Move downtown now while you can still afford it.

[NorthCoast]

Lifestyle Center living is teh hotness, just ask this guy:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/subprime

hotness

[GRDadof3]

I think the suburban buildout has peaked. Yes, there will still be more of it, but with the housing bust and ever higher oil prices I think the long-term trend is changing. We're just at the very beginning. It took 50 years to fully abandon our cities and it might take another 50 to move back.

The thing that I really found interesting about the article was how much more expensive downtown real estate is per square foot and how developers are going to have to target the lower end to make living downtown affordable. The thing is, I'm not sure how realistic that is. Certainly suburban living will become relatively more expensive with high energy prices, but if a lot of the cost of living downtown is because of higher building prices, then I don't see how it will become more affordable. And, as people continue moving into urban areas, land prices themselves will only increase.

Move downtown now while you can still afford it.

Well that's a big part of it. If it costs quite a bit more to live in urban areas, even moreso than it does today, than I don't see it becoming a widespread trend. But maybe the writer is right. Maybe in 50 years the suburbs will be the ghettos and the urban areas will be the oasis. That's the situation in some of the large European cities.

But again, I don't see how the economics will work for it to be widespread. Unless transportation costs double in 10 years from what they are today, then it might be a distinct possibility.

[AlexPKeaton]

But again, I don't see how the economics will work for it to be widespread. Unless transportation costs double in 10 years from what they are today, then it might be a distinct possibility.

I'd take that bet. How many 10-year-inflation-adjusted dollars would you like to wager?

For gas prices to double in 10 years prices would only have to increase 7.2% annually. With the dollar weakening so much we can get almost there through inflation alone. Do you think oil will increase in price slower than inflation? I'd actually bet that ii'll even increase at a faster rate.

[GRDadof3]

I'd take that bet. How many 10-year-inflation-adjusted dollars would you like to wager?

For gas prices to double in 10 years prices would only have to increase 7.2% annually. With the dollar weakening so much we can get almost there through inflation alone. Do you think oil will increase in price slower than inflation? I'd actually bet that ii'll even increase at a faster rate.

No, I think gas prices will rise that much. I'm talking total transportation costs (car insurance, gas, parking, car payments).

Are we way off topic on this?

[metrogrkid]

In regard to the February 27, 2008, GRPress article on the Village of Orchard Hills, I am hoping that the "fashion department stores" the developers are choosing between are none other that Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor. There is local precedence on such a hope since Woodland was set to get a Lord & Taylor before being sued by the former Hudson's to block it from entering the market.

Additionally, is this site over ten miles from Centerpointe Mall? I'm wondering because if one of the two mentioned fashion department stores were indeed Nordstrom, Nordstrom real estate protocol requires a ten mile seperation between any two Nordstrom-affiliated retailers - in this instance that would be Nordstrom Rack at Centerpointe.

More to make us all go, hmmmmm . . . .

[fotoman311]

In regard to the February 27, 2008, GRPress article on the Village of Orchard Hills, I am hoping that the "fashion department stores" the developers are choosing between are none other that Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor. There is local precedence on such a hope since Woodland was set to get a Lord & Taylor before being sued by the former Hudson's to block it from entering the market.

Additionally, is this site over ten miles from Centerpointe Mall? I'm wondering because if one of the two mentioned fashion department stores were indeed Nordstrom, Nordstrom real estate protocol requires a ten mile seperation between any two Nordstrom-affiliated retailers - in this instance that would be Nordstrom Rack at Centerpointe.

More to make us all go, hmmmmm . . . .

It's only 6 miles.

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1662807

[blueradon]

From what I've heard...Spartan Stores/D&W Fresh Market has pulled out of the Village of Orchard Hills and switched over to the Knapp's Crossing development.

That's a shame - Whole Foods could do so well in that development in my opinion.

[GRDadof3]

In regard to the February 27, 2008, GRPress article on the Village of Orchard Hills, I am hoping that the "fashion department stores" the developers are choosing between are none other that Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor. There is local precedence on such a hope since Woodland was set to get a Lord & Taylor before being sued by the former Hudson's to block it from entering the market.

Additionally, is this site over ten miles from Centerpointe Mall? I'm wondering because if one of the two mentioned fashion department stores were indeed Nordstrom, Nordstrom real estate protocol requires a ten mile seperation between any two Nordstrom-affiliated retailers - in this instance that would be Nordstrom Rack at Centerpointe.

More to make us all go, hmmmmm . . . .

I think they treat Nordstrom and Nordstrom Rack differently. We were just in Schaumburg recently and there is a Nordstrom in Woodfield Mall and a Nordstrom Rack in a new(er) development right across the street on Golf Rd.

I've thought about the fact that it might be a Nordstrom or a Dillards. It seems like the rumors of a Nordstrom coming to that area has been on-again off-again.

It could also end up being a Kohl's. I've seen them in standalone developments.

[twoshort]

I've thought about the fact that it might be a Nordstrom or a Dillards. It seems like the rumors of a Nordstrom coming to that area has been on-again off-again.

It could also end up being a Kohl's. I've seen them in standalone developments.

Talk about polar opposites.

[fotoman311]

It could also end up being a Kohl's. I've seen them in standalone developments.

Like this one in Omaha:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&...8&encType=1

Also, scroll NW (down and to the left) a little ways to see Nebraska Furniture Mart and their ENORMOUS warehouse compound, one of the largest furniture retail centers and warehouses in the country.

In fact, I think they're a couple of other Kohl's in Omaha that are in their own buildings and not necessarily connected to other buildings. So when I moved here, I thought it was odd that there was a Kohl's in Rivertown Mall.

[GRDadof3]

Like this one in Omaha:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&...8&encType=1

Also, scroll NW (down and to the left) a little ways to see Nebraska Furniture Mart and their ENORMOUS warehouse compound, one of the largest furniture retail centers and warehouses in the country.

In fact, I think they're a couple of other Kohl's in Omaha that are in their own buildings and not necessarily connected to other buildings. So when I moved here, I thought it was odd that there was a Kohl's in Rivertown Mall.

There's also a Kohl's in Greenridge Square off of Alpine (behind Target). The point I was making is that they talk about a new large clothing department store there, but it may not necessarily be upscale.

And wow! Talk about big boxes in those aerials.

[GRDadof3]

Here's the new site plan for the Village of Orchard Hills, for those interested. It features the new anchor layout, with the "grocer" at the North end, and a much larger anchor at the Southern end. It does not reflect the proposed changes to the residential portion yet.

The farthest Southern anchor comes in at 120,000 square feet on two levels.

Interestingly, a "Battle of the Competing Lifestyle Centers" was waged recently in Richmond, Virginia, a metro area of just over 1.3 Million. Up until 2006, residents had to travel 100 miles to Tyson's Corner in Northern Virginia, or to New York or Chicago, to do any upscale shopping (sound familiar). Now they have two new "upscale" lifestyle centers: Short Pump Town Center anchored by Nordstrom, Lord & Taylor, Dillards and Hecht's; and Stony Point Fashion Park, anchored by Saks Fifth Avenue and Dillards.

Taubman Centers, Forest City Enterprises open dueling centers in Richmond

And even more interesting, the Short Pump Town Center features a two-story 120,000 square foot Nordstrom, with the same curved entryway facade as the Village of Orchard Hills site plan Southern anchor.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&...6&encType=1

[metrogrkid]

Here's the new site plan for the Village of Orchard Hills, for those interested. It features the new anchor layout, with the "grocer" at the North end, and a much larger anchor at the Southern end. It does not reflect the proposed changes to the residential portion yet.

The farthest Southern anchor comes in at 120,000 square feet on two levels.

Interestingly, a "Battle of the Competing Lifestyle Centers" was waged recently in Richmond, Virginia, a metro area of just over 1.3 Million. Up until 2006, residents had to travel 100 miles to Tyson's Corner in Northern Virginia, or to New York or Chicago, to do any upscale shopping (sound familiar). Now they have two new "upscale" lifestyle centers: Short Pump Town Center anchored by Nordstrom, Lord & Taylor, Dillards and Hecht's; and Stony Point Fashion Park, anchored by Saks Fifth Avenue and Dillards.

Taubman Centers, Forest City Enterprises open dueling centers in Richmond

And even more interesting, the Short Pump Town Center features a two-story 120,000 square foot Nordstrom, with the same curved entryway facade as the Village of Orchard Hills site plan Southern anchor.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&...6&encType=1

Here comes that pesky "hmmmmmmmmm" theme again AND bolstered by:

In regard to the February 27, 2008, GRPress article on the Village of Orchard Hills, I am hoping that the "fashion department stores" the developers are choosing between are none other that Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor. There is local precedence on such a hope since Woodland was set to get a Lord & Taylor before being sued by the former Hudson's to block it from entering the market.

More to make us all go, hmmmmm . . . .

Let's see here :

GR CMSA = 1.3 million

Richmond CMSA = 1.3 million

GR Trip Distance to Nordstrom/Saks/Neiman Marcus/Lord & Taylor = 150+ miles East or West

Richmond Trip Distance to Nordstrom/Saks/Neiman Marcus/Lord & Taylor = 100+ miles NW

GR Dueling Lifestyle Centers = Village of Orchard Hills & Village of Knapp's Crossing

Richmond Dueling Centers = Short Pump Town Center & Stony Point Fashion Park

Can we all stop playing like there is not a pattern here? Good grief. The developers need to hurry up and be grateful that there will be shoppers from here (Metro GR), Lansing area and Kalamazoo/Battle Creek area that will give them all of their money. (FYI - that equates to a Region of Influence for GR of 2.2 million people, folks)

Edited March 12, 2008 by metrogrkid

[NorthCoast]

If anchor 'Major B' is not a D&W like I had heard, who else with a building that size would need a drive-thru? That structure is almost 60,000 sq. ft. Too big to be a Walgreen's. Maybe I misinterpreted what I heard and D&W is still in play but is ready bolt if the project looks like its going to get held up longer than they'd like?