North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[JRCLT]

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[kermit]

FWIW this is slightly longer than the rail distance from Charlotte to DC...

Metro DC is significantly larger than metro Rome.  Metro Charlotte plus metro Raleigh is larger than metro Milan.

Edited May 6, 2022 by kermit

[kermit]

Here is step one for using Infrastructure Bill cash to expand passenger rail in NC. This grant program will fund planning to reestablish corridor service on the S-Line, Wilmington to Raleigh and Asheville-Salisbury (ugh). The details of the grant program won’t be out until the end of the year, but it is clear that the FRA sees these grants as: a) necessary for consideration for future construction funding from the infrastructure bill and b) will require a 20% cost match (would be from NCDOT in this case). Since the S-Line has a completed EIS and service on it has been studied in the SEHSR planning docs I am not sure how much additional work would be involved there (I guess the program might fund some actual engineering costs?)

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/fra-unveils-corridor-id-and-development-program-news-and-analysis/

The 20% local match means there is no point in considering anything in South Carolina.

Edited May 17, 2022 by kermit

[davidclt]

As part of SEHSR is there any benefit to connecting all of the following airports by high-speed rail? ATL - GSP - CLT - GSO - RDU - IAD?

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

As part of SEHSR is there any benefit to connecting all of the following airports by high-speed rail? ATL - GSP - CLT - GSO - RDU - IAD?

IMO, no. If I'm from Greenville and flying to Europe, I'm starting the trip in GSP, not taking a train to CLT to start there. 

I'd much rather see the European model of connecting the city proper (ie, where people live), and from that connection point have a good transit connection to that city's airport.

On 5/6/2022 at 1:41 PM, kermit said:

FWIW this is slightly longer than the rail distance from Charlotte to DC...

Metro DC is significantly larger than metro Rome.  Metro Charlotte plus metro Raleigh is larger than metro Milan.

Also worth mentioning that the airports for both Rome and Milan are another 30-40 minute train ride from those city's centers, adding at least a full hour to the hassle of dealing with airports at each end.

[kermit]

^ Years ago there was talk of putting the 'second Atlanta' airport in Chattanooga and linking them via HSR.  Needless to say those thoughts have disappeared, But, the larger point remains, big airports are nearing capacity (the best metric for that might be taxi time) and they are looking to offload low capacity slots and add higher capacity slots. They only practical way to do this is via sexy-fast rail connections to nearby urban centers in lieu of flights. Its not gonna happen soon, but eventually the economics of airport expansion will lead us to this system. The most straightforward airport to airport connections in the SE will be CLT-Greensboro-RDU.

GSP is penciled in to be _THE_ SC stop of the Atlanta-Charlotte HSR route, it will also have a station at CLT and will almost certainly terminate at Hartsfield.

I don’t mean to suggest any of this will happen soon, but I would bet this will be the future.

Edited May 19, 2022 by kermit

[jthomas]

22 hours ago, davidclt said:

As part of SEHSR is there any benefit to connecting all of the following airports by high-speed rail? ATL - GSP - CLT - GSO - RDU - IAD?

Alon Levy has an interesting post on this subject:

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2014/05/28/airport-connectors/

The basic argument is that HSR connections are most valuable at major international airports, since they draw their passengers from a very large shed. Smaller regional airports are better served by good local transit, since they are drawing passengers from a smaller local area. In the SEHSR context, this means that CLT and ATL should definitely have stops, but it is far less important to serve GSP, GSO, and RDU. Fortunately, it should be relatively easy for the high speed line to serve CLT and ATL. 

21 hours ago, tozmervo said:

IMO, no. If I'm from Greenville and flying to Europe, I'm starting the trip in GSP, not taking a train to CLT to start there. 

I'd much rather see the European model of connecting the city proper (ie, where people live), and from that connection point have a good transit connection to that city's airport.

I think HSR has the potential to do the opposite and eliminate lots of the connecting short hops from places like GSP and GSO. However, the quality of the train-to-plane connection is crucial. If the train station is integrated into the terminal building itself (like Amsterdam Schiphol for instance, where it is in the basement), then taking the train from the outlying origin is pretty attractive. If, on the other hand, taking the train means hopping on an intermediate bus or people mover at the airport, it loses a great deal of convenience.

Another argument for HSR stations at airports is that they make a nice complement to CBD stations in larger metros. Airports already have extensive automobile infrastructure, and their peripheral locations can be more convenient for suburban riders. By making a park-and-ride airport HSR station, the CBD station can be freed up to focus more on access by pedestrians and local transit.

Edited May 20, 2022 by jthomas

[jthomas]

^I will say, though, that the specific example of GSP to CLT makes more sense on a plane if the only HSR station for Greenville-Spartanburg is at the airport. If you're driving to the airport anyway, why not just go through security at the small airport and make your connection airside at CLT? I think the biggest flaw of the Charlotte-Atlanta HSR proposal is the station situation in Greenville. It wouldn't be too hard to hit downtown Spartanburg, but accessing downtown Greenville proper (which is arguably the most important destination in the whole region) is very tricky, with no extant legacy lines. 

I think the best solution would be something akin to the TGV Bordeaux line, where the true HSR line bypasses the entire region to the south, with a greenfield stop perhaps in the Simpsonville area. This would be paired with a loop of upgraded legacy line that serves both downtowns as well as the airport. This way, some slower trains could serve the region's core, while express trains could just make the single suburban stop.

[PuppiesandKittens]

On 5/20/2022 at 10:30 AM, jthomas said:accessing downtown Greenville proper (which is arguably the most important destination in the whole region) is very tricky, with no extant legacy lines. 

 

Sorry, I don’t understand.  Norfolk Southern’s Washington-Atlanta main line, which hosts the Crescent, goes through the edge of downtown Greenville, and the Norfolk Southern/Amtrak station is definitely walkable from the core of downtown.

I regularly fly between GSP and CLT and as long  as a train is time-competitive, I’d be fine with that.  Flying from GSP to CLT takes over 2 hours, from leaving home in Greenville to arriving at CLT, and there’s usually about an hour layover in CLT (for a total of over 3 hours before departing on a connecting flight from CLT), so even driving is often faster.

 

[kermit]

22 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Sorry, I don’t understand.  Norfolk Southern’s Washington-Atlanta main line, which hosts the Crescent, goes through the edge of downtown Greenville, and the Norfolk Southern/Amtrak station is definitely walkable from the core of downtown.

I regularly fly between GSP and CLT and as long  as a train is time-competitive, I’d be fine with that.  Flying from GSP to CLT takes over 2 hours, from leaving home in Greenville to arriving at CLT, and there’s usually about an hour layover in CLT (for a total of over 3 hours before departing on a connecting flight from CLT), so even driving is often faster.

 

He was talking about the selected routing for the greenfield Atlanta to Charlotte HSR route, not the existing NS tracks.

[PuppiesandKittens]

Thanks.

The likelihood of South Carolina going from one train in each direction, 5 days a week, to a newly built high speed rail line is lower than the likelihood of me getting struck by lightning on a sunny day.  Unless Brightline tries it.

Working with NS to upgrade the Washington-Atlanta main line is the only realistic option other than Brightline, given SC’s complete lack of interest in passenger rail.

Edited May 23, 2022 by PuppiesandKittens

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Focus on NC and NC to the Northeast Corridor via the S-Line,  Screw Georgia and SC.

[kermit]

18 hours ago, Phillydog said:

Focus on NC and NC to the Northeast Corridor via the S-Line,  Screw Georgia and SC.

This!

Its not unrealistic that Charlotte could become the Southern equivalent of Boston as a terminus of the NEC in our lifetimes. 

(with the corollary that Atlanta becomes the Portland Maine equivalent of the SEC (corridor, not conference) -- the awkwardly and inadequately connected neighbor just beyond the corridor (but with worse seafood))

Edited May 26, 2022 by kermit

[blopp1234]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:08 AM, Phillydog said:

Focus on NC and NC to the Northeast Corridor via the S-Line,  Screw Georgia and SC.

North Carolina and Virginia could build quite a network of regional trains within the next 20 or so years. I would love to see a second frequency on the crescent route between Charlotte and Washington, while upping the southeast regionals (Charlotte-Raleigh-Richmond-Washington) to 5 round trips per day over the S-Line. Adding three round trips to Asheville with the possibility of extending one to Knoxville would be amazing. Three round trips to Wilmington from the NCRR and one round trip from Wilmington to Washington would be amazing as routing the silver star and Carolinian to the S-Line could open up slots for new service on the A-Line to fill its place. Who knows, maybe NC will be able to strike a deal with CSX in the future for Charlotte to Wilmington service via Monroe and Hamlet. All these routes seem pretty feasible if NC is aggressive in pursuing funding from the infrastructure bill. CSX has proven that they can be worked with at times but working with Norfolk Southern, who has been the worse of the two to expand passenger service under, will be the dealbreaker.

[kermit]

^ I really like the idea of a Wilmington to Washington train to replace the Carolinian over the A-Line!

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:20 PM, kermit said:

This!

Its not unrealistic that Charlotte could become the Southern equivalent of Boston as a terminus of the NEC in our lifetimes. 

(with the corollary that Atlanta becomes the Portland Maine equivalent of the SEC (corridor, not conference) -- the awkwardly and inadequately connected neighbor just beyond the corridor (but with worse seafood))

....bad seafood and a crappy coastline and pitiful "mountains" to boot.  It was a penal colony for a reason.  

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Who else remembers when we were supposed to have high speed rail by 2010?

https://web.archive.org/web/20011202214053/http://sehsr.org/

[kermit]

NCDOT received a $58 million grant from the CRISI program for the S-Line. The money will:

Quote

The money will go to several key parts of the rail project. It will pay for preliminary engineering work for a missing section on the line and preliminary design for the 162-mile route, according to Tillis.

For the record, Tillis is taking credit for a grant he did absolutely nothing to help with.

This is a necessary federal funding step before construction can begin on the route.

This grant program was approved before the infrastructure bill but this is a very good sign for money from the IB for construction. 

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/charlotte/news/2022/06/01/raleigh-to-richmond-rail-line-get-a--58-million-boost-from-the-feds

edit, from the FRA press release. It was the biggest grant of the batch:

15. North Carolina Department of Transportation – Raleigh to Richmond Corridor Infrastructure Engineering & Safety Program:
Up to $57,900,000 will be used to perform surveys and complete preliminary engineering (30% design) for Raleigh to Richmond (R2R) Corridor Program improvements between Raleigh, N.C., and Richmond, Va. Included in this project is the construction of a grade separation on the S-Line in Wake Forest, N.C. “The project will advance the next phase of the R2R corridor development, which will eventually result in new intercity passenger rail service on a state-owned route that will access currently underserved and minority rural communities with rail service, as well as improve travel times on the existing Amtrak Silver Meteor service,” according to FRA. “The project qualifies for the statutorily required set-aside for projects eligible under 49 U.S.C. § 22907(c)(2) that support the development of new intercity passenger rail service routes including alignments for existing routes.” The North Carolina Department of Transportation, the Virginia Department of Transportation and Amtrak will provide a 39% match.

Edited June 4, 2022 by kermit

[kermit]

I guess its good news (but, gezzus, they already did it once). NCDOT is updating the Wilmington passenger rail study. Should be complete by the end of the year. This is actually good news to get the route in line for construction funding.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/North-Carolina-DOT-to-update-passenger-rail-study--66738

[kermit]

Pitt County folks are saying they will pay for a feasibility study for Raleigh to Greenville (via Wilson) rail service. While the plan is to use the study to facilitate infrastructure program grants, 99 times out of 100 this sort of thing goes nowhere (264 is in good shape and congestion free and has a 70mph speed limit most of the way — will be tough for a train to beat that).

https://www.wnct.com/local-news/greenville/greenville-passenger-rail-service-in-early-talks/

[Merthecat]

Yeah, coming from Wake County it's a very easy drive.  Never took more than an hour and a half each way when I was going to school down there, but for a lot of college students a station in Uptown would probably be very convenient as it's walking distance to the ECU campus.  I certainly would've taken advantage of the service although it would've taken longer when adding in time to drive to and from the Raleigh/Cary stations.  Not too optimistic about the chances of this actually happening anytime soon but I really hope I'm wrong.

[Merthecat]

The Pitt-Greenville study mentioned above has been fully funded with $250,000 from NCDOT:

https://www.reflector.com/news/local/pitt-greenville-passenger-rail-study-fully-funded/article_b99a47ee-efb4-5d10-9030-6a75314b297c.html

[kermit]

Trains reports that a consortium of conservation groups have made an offer to NS for the decomissioned  Saluda grade tracks from Inman to Zirconia for a trail. For its part, NS shrugged and said they get lots of offers all the time and then had no comment (so it is unclear if NS is interested).

While the tracks have not been used since 2001, I have long thought they are the best (most direct) route to Asheville (in a world where SC actually gives a crap about passenger rail). I would hate to see the tracks go.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/groups-seek-to-buy-saluda-grade-for-conversion-to-rail-trail/

[jthomas]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Trains reports that a consortium of conservation groups have made an offer to NS for the decomissioned  Saluda grade tracks from Inman to Zirconia for a trail. For its part, NS shrugged and said they get lots of offers all the time and then had no comment (so it is unclear if NS is interested).

While the tracks have not been used since 2001, I have long thought they are the best (most direct) route to Asheville (in a world where SC actually gives a crap about passenger rail). I would hate to see the tracks go.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/groups-seek-to-buy-saluda-grade-for-conversion-to-rail-trail/

I agree - serving Asheville from Charlotte via Spartanburg makes better sense than the proposed Salisbury route, for several reasons. It looks like the portions of the line from Spartanburg-Tryon and Asheville-Flat Rock could be upgraded to 79 mph with relatively minor curve work, leaving the Saluda area as the only slow section.

I have wondered whether it would make sense to string catenary on the actual Saluda grade portion of the line for performance reasons. This seems a little less far-fetched now that Amtrak is ordering dual-mode trainsets from Siemens. It would make even more sense if the Atlanta-Charlotte HSR line gets built - this service could run on that line from Charlotte to Spartanburg.

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, jthomas said:

I have wondered whether it would make sense to string catenary on the actual Saluda grade portion of the line for performance reasons. This seems a little less far-fetched now that Amtrak is ordering dual-mode trainsets from Siemens. It would make even more sense if the Atlanta-Charlotte HSR line gets built - this service could run on that line from Charlotte to Spartanburg.

This is a great point. An electrified spur off Atl-Clt HSR would make trips to Asheville faster than driving for people at both ends of the Charlanta corridor. Electric would also make the grade significantly safer and easier to navigate (it would be mundane by Swiss mainline standards).