Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanvb]

I think when Norfolk's LRT is rolled out other cities will want it as well. Let's hope it is very successful.

[rusthebuss]

I think when Norfolk's LRT is rolled out other cities will want it as well. Let's hope it is very successful.

Well I will give Newport News props cause they are already on the ball with it. I think Norfolk and Newport News run very parallel with each other and have a great relationship too! I heard where the two mayors want to join the light rail one day and that is a very regional attitude by the two......ie the third crossing! I haven't heard anything about P-town wanting it though.

[lil-bear]

I hopw VA Beach jumps on quickly. The fact that the oceanfront has limited parking should be the biggest factor in looking at extending LR to the resort area! It would be very cumbersome and inconvienient for VA Beach to have special BRT busses when the rest of the region wants LR.

Just imagine if one lived in Churchland who didn't have their own transportation and wanted to go to the oceanfront they'd have to: ride a few busses, ride light rail, jump on a BRT, and maybe ride a ferry and do a little walking.

Transit use would increase if it were as easy as riding a feeder bus to a LR station all the way to the oceanfront, or where ever you wanted to go.

[urbanvb]

LRT from DT to the Oceanfront would be quite easy as VB just needs to secure their end of the old Norfolk Southern rail line. Of course it will be quite expensive as several intersections require them to upgrade and build over them.

[hoobo]

I hopw VA Beach jumps on quickly. The fact that the oceanfront has limited parking should be the biggest factor in looking at extending LR to the resort area! It would be very cumbersome and inconvienient for VA Beach to have special BRT busses when the rest of the region wants LR.

Just imagine if one lived in Churchland who didn't have their own transportation and wanted to go to the oceanfront they'd have to: ride a few busses, ride light rail, jump on a BRT, and maybe ride a ferry and do a little walking.

Transit use would increase if it were as easy as riding a feeder bus to a LR station all the way to the oceanfront, or where ever you wanted to go.

And you just hit on the reason why VB doesn't want LR going to the strip. It boils down to the Georgetown Syndrome (as I like to call it after Georgetown's refusal to have a Metro station b/c it would bring in hoodlums). However there is also a marketing and economic principle behind it. The Strip is not there for locals to enjoy, it's there for tourists to spend money and help VB generate tax revenue. If you go just for the beach then you're doing everything the city doesn't want you to do. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, you're not spending money. You're putting a cost on the system without adding any benefit to it. As for the Georgetown Syndrome that's where marketing comes in. The Block has a lively bar scene. Now if everyone has access to it, there's potential for even more problems than already occur. VB is going for a safe family-resort image. Increased incidents at the Block aren't in the city's best interests. VB is safe-guarding its prized commodity and largest industry from any threat, perceived or real, that it believes extending LR to the Strip will cause.

[lil-bear]

That way of thinking is sooooooooooooo screwed up. Even without LR any "hoodlum" can jump on a regular city bus and ride until they get to the oceanfront! I've never heard any reports saying that homeless people in DT Norfolk have been paying $1.50 to ride the bus to the resort area!!!

Anyways, when I said "go to the oceanfront" I wasn't suggesting going for the beach. Locals do go to the beach for many things that include spending $$$$$. Examples include: Neptune Festival, American Music Festival, Etc...........

For me, being a local, the biggest deterrant for not going to the oceanfront more often is the terrible traffic on Atlantic Ave. and a shortage of parking. Unfortunately, the parking that is there costs an arm and a leg!

Sooooooooooooo, if the LR line went all the way to the oceanfront I would be inclined to park my car and ride to the oceanfront. Instead of sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on Atlantic or Pacific Avenues looking for a parking space for 10 to 20 dollars.

[tuffsim]

That way of thinking is sooooooooooooo screwed up. Even without LR any "hoodlum" can jump on a regular city bus and ride until they get to the oceanfront! I've never heard any reports saying that homeless people in DT Norfolk have been paying $1.50 to ride the bus to the resort area!!!

Anyways, when I said "go to the oceanfront" I wasn't suggesting going for the beach. Locals do go to the beach for many things that include spending $$$$$. Examples include: Neptune Festival, American Music Festival, Etc...........

For me, being a local, the biggest deterrant for not going to the oceanfront more often is the terrible traffic on Atlantic Ave. and a shortage of parking. Unfortunately, the parking that is there costs an arm and a leg!

Sooooooooooooo, if the LR line went all the way to the oceanfront I would be inclined to park my car and ride to the oceanfront. Instead of sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on Atlantic or Pacific Avenues looking for a parking space for 10 to 20 dollars.

Sorry for the post lacking in substantive content, but, lil-bear, I totally agree.

[Padman]

And you just hit on the reason why VB doesn't want LR going to the strip. It boils down to the Georgetown Syndrome (as I like to call it after Georgetown's refusal to have a Metro station b/c it would bring in hoodlums). However there is also a marketing and economic principle behind it. The Strip is not there for locals to enjoy, it's there for tourists to spend money and help VB generate tax revenue. If you go just for the beach then you're doing everything the city doesn't want you to do. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, you're not spending money. You're putting a cost on the system without adding any benefit to it. As for the Georgetown Syndrome that's where marketing comes in. The Block has a lively bar scene. Now if everyone has access to it, there's potential for even more problems than already occur. VB is going for a safe family-resort image. Increased incidents at the Block aren't in the city's best interests. VB is safe-guarding its prized commodity and largest industry from any threat, perceived or real, that it believes extending LR to the Strip will cause.

A few oceanfront businessmen may feel that way, but not the city in general. It is an attitude that should be overcome and isn't in the overall public interest. It's also a mind-set that could prevent the oceanfront from reaching a higher level as a resort and an entertainment district. With proper physical planning, adequate law enforcement and other tools, the active bar scene can be controlled, cordoned and operated in a way that doesn't hurt the "family" oriented business. Besides, I'd rather see the drunks on light rail, buses or in cabs than out on the road. The more controversial night life venues could be oriented east-west on a pair of streets, away from the ocean amd away from the more restful (or upscale) areas. Commercial and instututional buffers could help to seperate incompatible activities. I think that these kinds of ideas have been discussed before, but not implemented.

[rusthebuss]

A few oceanfront businessmen may feel that way, but not the city in general. It is an attitude that should be overcome and isn't in the overall public interest. It's also a mind-set that could prevent the oceanfront from reaching a higher level as a resort and an entertainment district. With proper physical planning, adequate law enforcement and other tools, the active bar scene can be controlled, cordoned and operated in a way that doesn't hurt the "family" oriented business. Besides, I'd rather see the drunks on light rail, buses or in cabs than out on the road. The more controversial night life venues could be oriented east-west on a pair of streets, away from the ocean amd away from the more restful (or upscale) areas. Commercial and instututional buffers could help to seperate incompatible activities. I think that these kinds of ideas have been discussed before, but not implemented.

Very well said. I think that this Vabeach snob attitude really needs to change and evolve to a regional attitude which Norfolk needs to do as well. The CEO for NS said it well if they expect these traffic issues to go away you have to do it as a region not as individuals. You get more done together than seperate.

[vdogg]

I've never heard any reports saying that homeless people in DT Norfolk have been paying $1.50 to ride the bus to the resort area!!!

Bwahaha! That is too true. I think a lot, if not most of the concerns are completely overblown. And while I know it was said by a council member, I really don't think that their fear of certain "elements" was the main factor in going after BRT first. I think it boiled down to one thing, cost. I also think that some contributing factor was feasibility (word?). The overly suburban nature of Va. Beach does not lend well to city wide mass transit, where as a mass transit system with a focus on the oceanfront (i.e. BRT) will be more profitable to operate. Of course I along with most people hope that this will change sometime in the future, but I do understand some of the logic behind it.

[vdogg]

Very well said. I think that this Vabeach snob attitude really needs to change and evolve to a regional attitude which Norfolk needs to do as well. The CEO for NS said it well if they expect these traffic issues to go away you have to do it as a region not as individuals. You get more done together than seperate.

Padman said nothing about a "Va. Beach snob attitude". In fact, it appeared that in his post he was alluding to the fact that those who do feel that way are very few indeed. The first step to working together is respecting eachother and that is a 2 way street. A generalization such as that is not very constructive.

[hoobo]

I believe the snob attitude is very strong in influencing the city's decisions. They want tourists because they spend money on rooms not just food and drink. That's why there's a dearth of parking. The city loses money on parking structures. Look at its proposed now postponed BRT. It wasn't for locals but for conventioneers. In addition, there is probably some thinking that a few tourists will get hotel rooms elsewhere near an LRT stations because those rooms are cheaper. VB shot down LRT back in the 90's not over cost but over "elements." To cover themselves, the council put it to a referendum which was certain to fail. And it did.

VB needs to buy the NS land. Then once LR is running in Norfolk, have another LR referendum in VB. I'm sure the citizens will overcome the council's myopic view if the council hasn't done so already.

Personally, I don't even travel to the Strip unless I'm going to 17th St Surf Shop. I stick to the North End.

Edited December 9, 2005 by hoobo

[vdogg]

VB needs to buy the NS land. Then once LR is running in Norfolk, have another LR referendum in VB. I'm sure the citizens will overcome the council's myopic view if the council hasn't done so already.

Personally, I don't even travel to the Strip unless I'm going to 17th St Surf Shop. I stick to the North End.

Whether it is BRT or LRT VB will buy the NS right of way. I would of course prefer to go straight to LRT but I kind of think BRT can serve as a stepping stone to that. Once BRT has proven itself as a form of transit in VB I believe other, more valid forms, will start to be looked at as well. If VB goes to BRT first, it won't be a total loss.

[urbanvb]

Whether it is BRT or LRT VB will buy the NS right of way. I would of course prefer to go straight to LRT but I kind of think BRT can serve as a stepping stone to that. Once BRT has proven itself as a form of transit in VB I believe other, more valid forms, will start to be looked at as well. If VB goes to BRT first, it won't be a total loss.

I agree. And due to the nature of beast if you will, LRT at the Beach will cost quite a bit more than Norfolk's. I agree that BRT may be the best way to start and then go from there.

[Padman]

Yes, those grade separations at the key access points on I-264 are going to cost a lot. But at least they can plan for them in the studies that will soon be underway to improve some of the the major interchanges along I-264. Eventually I hope we have a transit system that works and can evolve as the land use evolves in that corridor (hopefully, a close relationship there). But I really thing that the two 800 pound gorillas (Norfolk and VB) have to work together more closely than they have in the past to make it happen. I like what David Goode had to say, but one of the problems with the Regional model for solving transportation issues is that you sometimes have to provide something for everybody involved. When that means projects get included in to-do lists that don't address the really big problems, nobody can afford to do anything to take care of the most pressing issues. And people are reluctant to tax themselves to pay for a big regional project list. A regional solution could work, but maybe we should put together a Norfolk-Virginia Beach transit coalition on this first.

[mikeas]

While the Light Rail is a good idea I think I have a better master plan...

We already have track from the harbor park area to the oceanfront. This track also crosses the Elizabeth River into Portsmouth close to the Jordan Bridge. It is aswell connected to the Greenbriar/Battlefield area of Chesapeake and Naval Station Norfolk. I say we put a "Grand Junction" station near harbor park and have a light rail line through downtown then just have commuter rail stations throughout the area using exisiting track. New Jersey has a similar station named Secaucus Junction yet they forgot to put any parking there as it is just meant for switching trains. Hopefully the designers really think about what they are doing before they set too much in stone.

Mike

[PeninsulaKiddo]

While the Light Rail is a good idea I think I have a better master plan...

We already have track from the harbor park area to the oceanfront. This track also crosses the Elizabeth River into Portsmouth close to the Jordan Bridge. It is aswell connected to the Greenbriar/Battlefield area of Chesapeake and Naval Station Norfolk. I say we put a "Grand Junction" station near harbor park and have a light rail line through downtown then just have commuter rail stations throughout the area using exisiting track. New Jersey has a similar station named Secaucus Junction yet they forgot to put any parking there as it is just meant for switching trains. Hopefully the designers really think about what they are doing before they set too much in stone.

Mike

Excellent first post and I really like that idea. I can see something like that working, but I'd still like to have the LR trains running through DT Norfolk... I think this kind of idea is something that has probably been considered much, but still only in the proposal phase... We'll see...

[rusthebuss]

Excellent first post and I really like that idea. I can see something like that working, but I'd still like to have the LR trains running through DT Norfolk... I think this kind of idea is something that has probably been considered much, but still only in the proposal phase... We'll see...

One problem with that those are heavily used lines for NS. That will never happen. The line to Oceana was abandoned due to Vulcan moving their rock crushing yard over to Ballantine Rd. so NS had no reason for that line anymore.

Edited December 9, 2005 by rusthebuss

[lammius]

While the Light Rail is a good idea I think I have a better master plan...

We already have track from the harbor park area to the oceanfront. This track also crosses the Elizabeth River into Portsmouth close to the Jordan Bridge. It is aswell connected to the Greenbriar/Battlefield area of Chesapeake and Naval Station Norfolk. I say we put a "Grand Junction" station near harbor park and have a light rail line through downtown then just have commuter rail stations throughout the area using exisiting track. New Jersey has a similar station named Secaucus Junction yet they forgot to put any parking there as it is just meant for switching trains. Hopefully the designers really think about what they are doing before they set too much in stone.

Mike

It is an interesting idea, though as Rus said, there are enormous hurdles to operating passenger rail on active freight lines. Both acquiring the right to use the rail and the practical difficulties of scheduling are difficult to deal with.

Furthermore, I think light rail really is the best fit for Norfolk, at least at this time. The heavy rail commuter trains you mentioned passing through Secaucus require consistently heavy demand. Each of those trains can carry 1,500 people. Even if you shorten the trains to two cars, the operating costs for heavy rail would be enormous. With the ridership expected on the Norfolk line I think light rail offers a cheaper, low-capacity system that can operate on headways frequent enough to acquire rider confidence.

At Secaucus parking wasn't forgotten. That station was built for, as you said, switching trains. Everyone who passes through the station is going from one train to another. It's not a park&ride. I could go into a whole discussion of the successes and failures of Secaucus Transfer, but this isn't the forum for it.

[hoobo]

While the Light Rail is a good idea I think I have a better master plan...

We already have track from the harbor park area to the oceanfront. This track also crosses the Elizabeth River into Portsmouth close to the Jordan Bridge. It is aswell connected to the Greenbriar/Battlefield area of Chesapeake and Naval Station Norfolk. I say we put a "Grand Junction" station near harbor park and have a light rail line through downtown then just have commuter rail stations throughout the area using exisiting track. New Jersey has a similar station named Secaucus Junction yet they forgot to put any parking there as it is just meant for switching trains. Hopefully the designers really think about what they are doing before they set too much in stone.

Mike

The "Grand Junction" is part of the plan. Norfolk and HRT foresee lines extending to Portsmouth and Suffolk and to Chesapeake. This is station is also included for a heavy rail connection to the Peninsula to connect to their proposed LR system and for high speed rail that South HR is trying to get to come down 460. The Peninsula is trying to get high speed rail to come down 64 and connect to the Southside using the heavy rail line.

As for BRT and LRT coexisting, look at L.A.'s MTA Orange and Red Lines (link). Just remember to build a skywalk over Newtown instead of being cheap like MTA. Having pedestrians cross a major street is not safe and it only makes traffic in that area worse.

[lammius]

I've browsed the FEIS on HRT's website but cannot find out how many tracks are on the NS line in Norfolk. I've just prepared a capital cost estimate for a proposed light rail in New Brunswick, NJ (nearly the same length as Norfolk's line) and nearly fainted from sticker shock. Norfolk's line must already have a second track in place or at least occasional sidings. Does anyone know?

[Padman]

I've browsed the FEIS on HRT's website but cannot find out how many tracks are on the NS line in Norfolk. I've just prepared a capital cost estimate for a proposed light rail in New Brunswick, NJ (nearly the same length as Norfolk's line) and nearly fainted from sticker shock. Norfolk's line must already have a second track in place or at least occasional sidings. Does anyone know?

Good to see some reality checks on this. Not only are the capital costs high, annual maintenance and operational costs can quickly become an even bigger issue. That's the real reason why we need some plan to expand the system quickly and efficiently so that we get some real ridership. It's just not going to do much good for us going medical center to Newtown.

[Former Resident of HR]

As for BRT and LRT coexisting, look at L.A.'s MTA Orange and Red Lines (link). Just remember to build a skywalk over Newtown instead of being cheap like MTA. Having pedestrians cross a major street is not safe and it only makes traffic in that area worse.

Having been on the horrible LA public transport system, all I can say is I pray that is not used as any kind of model/example. In LA, there is LRT, subway and BRT. What is the point for all the different types of transport? It just means that people have to disembark and then go to another part of a station to change. For the VA Beach/Norfolk route, this is completely stupid because it going in the same direction.

If they end up using the same kind of LRT trains as Houston (which are sleek but should age gracefully), VA Beach will be shooting itself in the foot if it goes with BRT. If they want BRT, they should try it out along the Oceanfront first.

And again, the starter line idea is better than nothing. We're not going to get a Portland sized LRT system overnight. If it comes and HRT gets it right (clean trains and drivers who aren't crazy/bitter/ghetto rude) then I am sure that it will be expanded up Hampton Blvd. and out to the Oceanfront.

[hoobo]

It all comes down to cost in LA. The Red Line (subway) goes through dense areas. They plan on extending it down Wilshire, one of the most densely populated streets with some of the most expensive real estate in LA. The three LRT lines either follow freeways or run through poor neighborhoods. The LRT lines go underground in downtown. Having the subway and LRT lines is okay because they are separate lines all going different places. The BRT line is the weird one. It runs east-west tying into the northern terminus of the Red Line. It would've made more sense to daylight the Red Line, but its underground construction nearly bankrupted MTA. Eventually, I believe the Red Line will daylight and extend north, then west. The BRT line will probably be extended east as long as they can get a handle on those accidents. It is a popular line though.

Anyway, as for LRT and BRT in HR, doing two straight lines connecting at Newtown is dumb. The only way it makes sense is if LRT then turns north to the Airport and BRT turns south to Kempsville. Then they become two separate lines. Still, a pure east-west line and a pure north-south line makes more sense.

[Norfanatic]

Norfolk Southern's David Goode Speech

David Goode spoke at the Hampton Roads Economic Club Luncheon last Thursday. Here's a link to his speech. His main point is that the cities of Hampton Roads need to work together as a region instead of competing cities. He used Norfolk's purchase of NS's rail lines as an example of Norfolk working alone to solve a regional transportation problem. He made a point that Hampton Road's congestion is a regional problem and needs to be addressed regionally instead of each city contributing seperately. Maybe he's just trying to sell more rail lines to other cities, but he's got a point.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Norfanatic