Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[rusthebuss]

Woah, this LR thing is getting pretty nasty. Apparently, Paul Riddick callled Randy Wright the "lynch mob" and is more like the dead-beat dad of LR than the Father of LR.

Riddick is a idiot and needs to be booted from councel. He is a huge racist and I can't stand the idiot. He is one of the most corrupt councilman for the city.

[varider]

Riddick is a idiot and needs to be booted from councel. He is a huge racist and I can't stand the idiot. He is one of the most corrupt councilman for the city.

Why the animosity?

Also,Riddick is dropping hints that the LR costs are about to rise again!

HRT sucks. Any more $$ spent will push us over Charlotte's $$/mile. Some of this $$ must have been wasted some where. Charlotte's system is so much more advanced/complex than our's. How can it be more expensive?

Edited January 13, 2010 by varider

[ronsmytheiii]

Why the animosity?

Also,Riddick is dropping hints that the LR costs are about to rise again!

I wouldnt believe the man as far as I could throw him, which in the case of him is no where:

Let's review, shall we? In 1997 he was convicted of misdemeanor assault after he threw ham at a store clerk in a hissy fit about lunch meat gone bad.

He's also had tax problems.

Worse, after a 2004 undercover drug operation near The Gallery at Military Circle left two police officers with

gunshot wounds, Riddick jumped all over law enforcement-not the thug who shot them.

In a radio interview, the councilman also seized the opportunity to scapegoat Jews.

"They would not have done it over at the Palace Shops, which are frequented a lot by Jews, MacArthur Center or Lynnhaven Mall," Riddick said of the operation.

Riddick said he was sorry. He didn't really mean Jews. He meant "any rich middle class" neighborhood.

http://hamptonroads.com/node/125741

Edited January 13, 2010 by ronsmytheiii

[Mos]

I wouldnt believe the man as far as I could throw him, which in the case of him is no where:

http://hamptonroads.com/node/125741

I happen to live in Riddick's ward and there's a real lack of understanding out there about what keeps him in office. He is less the progenitor of the ideas he expresses, and more the reflection of the majority of his constituents. People around here identify with him in a way that Whibley, Winn, Wright, and Williams can't even hope for. I'm not saying they necessarily love (or even like) him, just that they identify with him. Until those beliefs are dispelled, they will continue to have a voice on our council; wether they come from Riddick or whoever replaces him. I look at Riddick a yardstick of how big a gulf we still have to bridge.

[Glassoul]

Also,Riddick is dropping hints that the LR costs are about to rise again!

HRT sucks. Any more $$ spent will push us over Charlotte's $$/mile. Some of this $$ must have been wasted some where. Charlotte's system is so much more advanced/complex than our's. How can it be more expensive?

For the same reasons I said 3 or 4 years ago on this forum. A: The project was low-balled from the get-go. B: No expertise

Let's say folks on this forum were a consortium of somewhat successful but small time home restoration and apartment conversion companies. If I were a responsible investor, would I suddenly give you $130M to build a 34 story residential building? You neither have the expertise, experience, or systems in place to carry out such a significant undertaking within budget and on time. Even if you hire a couple of folks to lead the project, your entire way of doing business is not geared towards a project of that scale. You will have to contract out almost most of the work, including the project development and oversight. Things like project business controls, engineering controls/TQA, execution, and procurement, are all for the most part a foreign language to you. Same goes for HRT. Nothing is in place to manage a project of this scale. Since you have no experience in running a large scale project or managing large numbers of contractors, you are going to be eaten alive.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Glassoul

[usermel]

Race shouldnt be what we FOCUS on with this story guys/gals lets be nice to each other and keep it clean. We will never agree based on environment and LIFE experience. Many factors form ur views on race and who is or isnt a racist! That said, Riddick spoke of the blame not only being on Mr. Townes and that seems to have been lost in dislike for Riddick etc.! He (Riddick) said some key things we shouldnt overlook! Me being in the music biz I sensed something smelled bad. Its impossible for Mr. Townes to have been the only person who knew the budget went over its initial estimate! $100,000,000 over is extreme and was noted by more than Mr. Townes trust me. This is political in nature. I know there are those who feel Riddick is the racist and I wont try and change those folks minds. Ask yourself this. How many people lose there jobs based soley on a budget being wrong and a project of this magnitude is never, never left to one individual with some many citygovernment dollars involved!

When and if you are a 50 year old to 75 or older black man in America and especially the south as Riddick is you face being mistreated over and over. Though I feel race isnt the issue, its the budget it plays a small part in the way this is being handled. Riddick is a MAN who refuses to be a YES man as many African Americans do to get were the want to get and that unfortunately makes him appear as a racist. This country is dominated by White Americans and not 1 time in its history have Blacks been the majority! A man of Mr. Townes stature should never be fired for the reason he is being fired why? He isnt the only one who played a part in the budget but is taking all the blame. If he goes others should as well as Riddick stated. Why say he is a racist? Because he points out truths about how Blacks are treated in city government? I said before there was more to this story and if you saw the news tonight its clear. HRT/City of Norfolk are All at fault. Why? They were all in charge of light rail and its budget and making it work for the citizens of Norfolk. Race is/isnt an issue in this event but, is behind the scenes in politics. Riddick is doing whats right and helping not a black man as he is but, making sure truth is put to the front of lies and politics. I hate unfairness of any kind and what Mr. Townes has endured is ot racist but, it is unfairness!!! Love , L.G.N.M

For the same reasons I said 3 or 4 years ago on this forum. A: The project was low-balled from the get-go. B: No expertise

Let's say folks on this forum were a consortium of somewhat successful but small time home restoration and apartment conversion companies. If I were a responsible investor, would I suddenly give you $130M to build a 34 story residential building? You neither have the expertise, experience, or systems in place to carry out such a significant undertaking within budget and on time. Even if you hire a couple of folks to lead the project, your entire way of doing business is not geared towards a project of that scale. You will have to contract out almost most of the work, including the project development and oversight. Things like project business controls, engineering controls/TQA, execution, and procurement, are all for the most part a foreign language to you. Same goes for HRT. Nothing is in place to manage a project of this scale. Since you have no experience in running a large scale project or managing large numbers of contractors, you are going to be eaten alive.

I agree with Gassoul 1000%! Great points buddy!! Thats why I feel and know it wasnt just one person at fault! L.G.N.M

[usermel]

Gassoul though I agree with some of your points your missing what I said before the news tonight when Riddick cnfirmed what I said. (I work in the music biz with labels like Atlantic/Interscope/Universal/Def Jam etc. and dealt with budgets of large amounts) Yes, the president is clearly the person who knows what transpires but, at the same time others work with the persident in coming up with budgets etc.! When I said a rat is smelled I meant what Riddick revealed on Wavy 10 news tonight(Tuesday 12th 2010) during the city council meeting when HE stated "Mr. Townes wasnt the only one at fault" ! Lets be clear, there is a reason Riddick spoke out and like I stated on the post were you questioned my using the word rat, I deal in BIG money deals all the time! I myself have been in charge of budgets as well and most go over($10,000,000-$20,000,000 budgets in the biz I have dealt with) seldom are exact and many are involved with the process even though the president is involved as the one in charge there are many more involved as well such as accountants and lawyers and in this case the city government. Thats what Riddick is attempting to get ALL Norfolk citizens to see. A budget as massive as $200,000,000 or more would never been totally left in the hands of Townes because the project has city $ involved as well. Im not saying Townes should stay or leave Im saying he isnt the only one at fault!

When it comes to truth let it stand and be heard! I smelled the lies of those who oppose Townes and know when theres more to what I see after 17 years in the biz( started in 1992 with R&B group Jodeci and now have a profitable music company that sells music and have worked with Madonna/Rihanna and many more) its all political mst times. Why you get jobs and why you lose them. I lost a job a friend gave me when I didnt do as he wanted me to and got it only because he was my friend. Soon as I said I disagree the whole staff and the friend turned on me. Im not made or upset with the friend at all. Thats business and I still love the friend and my point is this. Thats how politics work and Mr. Townes is no friend of those who want him goen and was left holding the glove of a robber!! We dont have to agree because I feel we believe and like what and who we want. I just think that unfairness sucks and Townes is being used to make it feel better to Norfolks citizens that the problem has been rid of, and thats untrue! Townes is the scapegoat like when labels fire exces when sales are down.

[virginia pe]

Its impossible for Mr. Townes to have been the only person who knew the budget went over its initial estimate! $100,000,000 over is extreme and was noted by more than Mr. Townes trust me. This is political in nature. I know there are those who feel Riddick is the racist and I wont try and change those folks minds. Ask yourself this. How many people lose there jobs based soley on a budget being wrong and a project of this magnitude is never, never left to one individual with some many citygovernment dollars involved!

Mr. Townes was not fired because LR went $100M over budget. He was fired because he repeatedly gave updates to city leaders and did not tell them about the cost overruns. He let the city council be blindsided by the Virginian Pilot. Even when the Virginian-Pilot broke the story, he said we still don't have the final figures. But the city doesn't need the final numbers to know there is a problem. When the budget started getting $5M to $10M over budget, he should have been waving a red flag, but he didn't. If I were in management and a person reporting to me did not keep me apprised of a problem until it became catastrophic, he would be fired. And, after it reached the catastrophy level, I learned about it from an outside source before he told me, he can forget it. Townes was fired because he did not do his job - keeping city council apprised of the project.

Did other people know about the problem? Undoubtedly. But it was Townes job to officially communicate it to city council, and he failed to do his job.

Should other people have been fired? Absolutely. And hopefully, the investigation into the cost overruns will uncover other incompetants and they will be fired, too.

Was politics involved? No question. But Townes deserved to be fired regardless of anyone's politics.

Was race involved? Yes. Nothing happens in Norfolk that does not involve race. But race was not the primary factor in Townes' dismissal.

[usermel]

Virginia PE, you still totally missed it. Mr Riddick a member of the city council himself stated that Mr. Townes was not the only one wrong meaning the TRUTH has not been told regarding who really knew what! Be a human being, not a race or so judgemental. Mr. Riddick is a member of the city council and if he wanted to completely distance himself he could. What the other council members are doing is that! I have closely followed this case and I have friends in politics. Trust me sir/miss( I dont know if your male or female) theres more to this story than your being told. Politics is a very egregious business sir/miss and is in alot of ways worse than all businesses in the world. Mr. Riddick confirmed by not putting members and others out there that others knew it was over budget. That said, its bigger than a budget issue fellow member. Also, lets not make this an argument between fellow members because thats whats wrong with our area now to much bickering(Im just as guilty)!

Listen to what Riddick says and listen good. Put aside what you like or dont like about Paul Riddick and listen to him. Him being a memebr of council and saying Mr. Townes wasnt the only one who knew of this issue is deep sir! People have lost jobs for bigger things than this my dear sir/miss and for him to be fired tells me he was set up to take the blame for what mmany knew. He woudlnt be fired just because he didnt tell the coucil he knew it was over budget buddy, come on. Again, I deal in high dollar businesses and can tell you its no way the city cuncil didnt know(at least 1-3 members) its a cover up so those on city coucil dont look bad to those who voted them in. How do I know this? Again, years of BIG business experience and this looks like what I see all the time in the music industry(work with labels like Atlantci/Interscope/Universal/Def Jam etc.! There is corruption involved here as well. All BIG deals such as this have $ under the table and maybe those who want Mr. Townes out didnt feel they got there share or not enough of the under the table $! These deals are very, very secretive and also, shady! Mr. Townes is just the Fall Guy and Im not speaking of the TV show. They did there job making you and others who feel Mr. Townes is the blame though. Most who dont like Mr. Townes dont because the powers that be planned it this way. There must be a Fall Guy(see Barack Obama and the way hes blamed for an economy that was already in a depression pre- election)! I LOVE all memebr so please dont take what I say personally towards any of you because we disagree. Lets keep it friendly were just talking about the topics not solving them! HAHAHAHAHA! L.G.N.M

[vdogg]

And we're talking about race in the Light Rail thread because.....

[stillill]

And we're talking about race in the Light Rail thread because.....

Because I am going to try to beat one of the light rail cars in a foot race.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/01/townes-exit-ends-difficult-fight

Politically and practically, light rail was stalled with Townes as president of HRT. Norfolk will still build its system, true, but Virginia Beach had said the line wouldn't enter the city unless Townes was gone. Such an abrupt end would ensure that light rail never reached its potential in Hampton Roads.

The issue The future of light rail and HRT’s president

Where we stand The Tide now has a chance to succeed.

[Glassoul]

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/01/townes-exit-ends-difficult-fight

Get rid of the President, institute some transparency and better cost controls, promise to do better, yadda yadda. This is the easy part of the sell. The hard part will come 2 years from now...

Edited January 14, 2010 by Glassoul

[usermel]

Question? If Mr. Townes had told the board/city council of the $100,000,000 over budget would he still have kept his job? Just a thought because I wondered after seeing some comments about how he is the blame and was wrong mainly because he had not communicated about the budget before is why he must go(resign which he did). Now, I have no opinion on if he would have still been asked to resign or not but, again my dear fellow Urban Planet members. I deal in a biz with BIG money going from President to artist to executuve producers etc., and wonder if he truly was the only one who knew it was over budget as he was made to look like.

If he did know and completely no other breathing human involved with light rail meaning city council/HRT board so be it. I myself smell a rat and think that Mr Paul Riddick knows other board members knew and or possibly council members. In BIG business dealing in these numbers especially city government involved projects its very rare if not impossible for lawyers and accountants and board members not to know what happens. I deal directly with major label Presidents as I have attained publishing deals and artist deals and in the process the President still needs board memebers approval. Im just saying this isnt a guy working the fries at McDonalds like I did in 1989/1990. This guy was a PART of a project for THE CITY OF NORFOLK that the original PROPOSED budget was over $200,000,000 bucks.(Going over budget isnt rare in high dollar deals,being under budget is,hahahah)

Projetcs of this magnitude have issues of budgets and the reccession itself is a factor as well with cost! I'll say this. If he had to go to save light rail he should be commended as well. He was the one guy who kept on pressing the city to do light rail. So with some bad is some good. While the memebrs of council who at one time didnt support the idea of light rail Mr. Townes did far before it laid its first track! Mr. Townes will be a forgotten man when we look 10 years in the future which is bad.

His vision for light rail is why it exist along with tax payers bucks and for that I salute him. Thanks Mr .Townes for bringing Norfolk light rail. While the city has no true signature downtown skyscraper. Light rail is a symbol of progress that the city needs! To rid of a guy like trash is not a good thing when he gave birth to the idea. The memebrs of the council and those who may or may not have known about the over budget issue should at least have said "We thank Mr. Townes for his vision but, so we dont lose light rail ask him to resign for the future of this great addition to the city of Norfolk and so it may expand to our sister city of Va Beach."

[usermel]

Update on the recently resigned Mr. Townes of HRT! It appears my praise of his views on transportation ironically have been given more backen on a national front. He was in D.C. getting an award based on his innovation in transportation. This award was given to him yesterday in D.C. and is a national award. I accept that many on this site feel he should go due to recent accusations(last 1-2 weeks of allegations) but, what he did in getting this thing up in running is what most never have been able to do in other ventures locally. Hampton Roads traditionally has been very old guard oriented. Meaning the area has a old school approach on growth such as the green line in Va Beach.

Growth locally has been stunted for years and the light rail is an extreme progressive addition locally. Lets not lose site on what Townes did do. Its easy to be upset when we feel let down by people in office but, how many of us are as aggressive in our emotion when they do soemthing right to point that out. Light Rail for Norfolk/Va Beach and the whole metro is a sign of the growth for out of towners and locals that signals were Norfolk and the metro is going and for those who have visited for years shows them how far Norfolk and the metro has come. Townes though he used bad judgement if the allegations are true will be missed in this regard. He was a forward thinker. Question? Would light rail exist in the metro now had he not been the inovator in his thinking as those giving him the award inD.C. feel he is/was. Saw the award being given to Mr. Townes on channel 13 WVEC this morning at 5am(F.Y.I).

Now, on with light rail and may we find more progressive thinkers as Townes was and I hope they cross their T's and dot there I's or this same unfortunate black eye can happen again. Norfolk after losing Granby Towers and probably The Westin along with many other area changing projects cant afford another let down that can be controlled by this slow growing city that should be twice as BIG in downtown size and twice as BIG or even three times as BIG in name nationally and world wide being the worlds largest naval base is located here as well.

Love,

Usermel!!!

[Norfolk4Life]

Why the animosity?

Also,Riddick is dropping hints that the LR costs are about to rise again!

HRT sucks. Any more $ spent will push us over Charlotte's $/mile. Some of this $ must have been wasted some where. Charlotte's system is so much more advanced/complex than our's. How can it be more expensive?

Charlotte's line is all over land. Ours has large stretches over water. Charlottes has most of theirs at ground level. Their longest elevated portion is half the length of ours. Also our elevated section had the HUGH steel beams to cross a major roadway; theirs didn't. I don't think Charlotte has any shared ROW track (i.e. in the street.) Norfolk has over a mile of in-the-road track. If you have never seen them build a track like that it basically requires 1) tear up existing road 2) move every underground utility so that they all cross the track perpendicularly instead of running parallel under the track. This eliminated the need to tear up the track for future utility repairs. 3) a new roadbed/trackbed must be graded out. 4) a regular track but be constructed, railroad ties and all. 5) forms have to be built to keep the concrete around the track 6) concrete has to be poured and graded so that runoff will drain. 7) the road can then be laid on either side.

This whole process is like building a track AND a road but at a higher cost to each. While I know that Charlotte is an old city, their light rail didn't run in the streets. If you ever get a chance, go look down into a street project on an old downtown street. Most people don't realize that the streets have been significantly built up over the years. Under the asphalt, you generally find concrete. Under that, old trolley tracks and cobblestones. When you finally make it down to the original roadbed and dig it out, you will not only find today's network of phone/data lines, gas lines, electrical lines, water lines, and sewer lines, but you will also find the last 4 centuries worth of abandoned water lines, sewer lines, gas lines, etc. Norfolk at one point had gas lamps downtown. Those lines were never removed but they are not the same line we use for commercial delivery of gas. You would also find under our streets that the streets didn't always go there. In past construction projects, they have found building foundations under what are now streets. Finally, because most of Norfolk used to be water/wetlands, construction crews usually find centuries worth of garbage and debris that was dumped to fill the land.

This picture is from the Norfolk Public Library. It was taken around 1868. You can try to guess where it was, but you never will. The bridge in the picture was called the "Granby Street Bridge." It is NOT, however, our Granby Street Bridge. This Granby Street Bridge, made of stone, connects north and south Granby Streets. The waterway that it crossed is now called ... wait for it.... City Hall Avenue. Thats right. CITY HALL AVENUE. Just picture the Trader Tower where that shed is on the left side of the photo.

It is things like this that made Norfolk's light rail unpredictable Downtown.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Norfolk4Life

[varider]

What about the fact that Charlotte has 15 stations, we have 11. Charlotte has two car stations, we have one car stations. Charlotte has 16 LRVs, we have 9?

[vaceltic]

Should we even note that much of the rail line already exists?

[urbanfan]

Should we even note that much of the rail line already exists?

The rail line did not already exist. The rails for cargo trains is not the same for passenger light rail. All new tracks and ties have been replaced. Charlottes is no more complex a system than ours. In fact it has it's own dedicated ROW through the city center which if Norfolk had that it would have dropped our price significantly. Even despite the fact that Charlotte has more trains and stations, the money to build stations and buy cars pails in comparison to digging up centuries old streets and emedding rails in concrete. It just doesn't even come close.

[mistermetaj]

Update on the recently resigned Mr. Townes of HRT! It appears my praise of his views on transportation ironically have been given more backen on a national front. He was in D.C. getting an award based on his innovation in transportation. This award was given to him yesterday in D.C. and is a national award. I accept that many on this site feel he should go due to recent accusations(last 1-2 weeks of allegations) but, what he did in getting this thing up in running is what most never have been able to do in other ventures locally. Hampton Roads traditionally has been very old guard oriented. Meaning the area has a old school approach on growth such as the green line in Va Beach.

Growth locally has been stunted for years and the light rail is an extreme progressive addition locally. Lets not lose site on what Townes did do. Its easy to be upset when we feel let down by people in office but, how many of us are as aggressive in our emotion when they do soemthing right to point that out. Light Rail for Norfolk/Va Beach and the whole metro is a sign of the growth for out of towners and locals that signals were Norfolk and the metro is going and for those who have visited for years shows them how far Norfolk and the metro has come. Townes though he used bad judgement if the allegations are true will be missed in this regard. He was a forward thinker. Question? Would light rail exist in the metro now had he not been the inovator in his thinking as those giving him the award inD.C. feel he is/was. Saw the award being given to Mr. Townes on channel 13 WVEC this morning at 5am(F.Y.I).

Now, on with light rail and may we find more progressive thinkers as Townes was and I hope they cross their T's and dot there I's or this same unfortunate black eye can happen again. Norfolk after losing Granby Towers and probably The Westin along with many other area changing projects cant afford another let down that can be controlled by this slow growing city that should be twice as BIG in downtown size and twice as BIG or even three times as BIG in name nationally and world wide being the worlds largest naval base is located here as well.

Love,

Usermel!!!

The city of Norfolk played a huge role in lobbying for LR, along with whatever you think Townes did. I don't see how the green line is an "old school" approach to growth? It was made to preserve some semblance of rural land which is what Va Beach used to be and prevent sprawl. If anything, it would have been better off planning wise if the area had more of that "old school" mentality and pushed for urban development through lack of available land.

To call him progressive because of LR is a little extreme in my mind, considering LR is successful in multiple places outside of Norfolk. That's like calling Obama an innovator because he invested 8 billion dollars in high speed rail when it's been around for decades now.

I do think however Townes got the shortest possible end of the stick and lost his job because of multiple screw ups from the city of Norfolk all the way to the federal government (they invest 1/3 and have all these contingency requirements). That being said, when you're that high in power and this big of project has those kind of cost overruns, what else can you expect but to lose your job. In the end, everyone looks for someone to blame, and it falls on him, whether it's fair or not.

While I agree Norfolk's DT should be bigger, it's really not the fault of Norfolk today. You really have to look at 60s urban renewal to see why DT is what it is. Instead of fixing the ghetto that was DT Norfolk, they just completely bulldozed it instead. Put back all of what was lost in the 60s plus the developments afterwards, Norfolk is much bigger. Add in removing all the public housing, it would be a great urban environment to live in. We should be very grateful for the transition Norfolk has made in the past decade and the plans they have for the future. It will gain its prominence one day, and it may be in our generation as well.

[brikkman]

Charlotte's line is all over land. Ours has large stretches over water. Charlottes has most of theirs at ground level. Their longest elevated portion is half the length of ours. Also our elevated section had the HUGH steel beams to cross a major roadway; theirs didn't. I don't think Charlotte has any shared ROW track (i.e. in the street.) Norfolk has over a mile of in-the-road track. If you have never seen them build a track like that it basically requires 1) tear up existing road 2) move every underground utility so that they all cross the track perpendicularly instead of running parallel under the track. This eliminated the need to tear up the track for future utility repairs. 3) a new roadbed/trackbed must be graded out. 4) a regular track but be constructed, railroad ties and all. 5) forms have to be built to keep the concrete around the track 6) concrete has to be poured and graded so that runoff will drain. 7) the road can then be laid on either side.

This whole process is like building a track AND a road but at a higher cost to each. While I know that Charlotte is an old city, their light rail didn't run in the streets. If you ever get a chance, go look down into a street project on an old downtown street. Most people don't realize that the streets have been significantly built up over the years. Under the asphalt, you generally find concrete. Under that, old trolley tracks and cobblestones. When you finally make it down to the original roadbed and dig it out, you will not only find today's network of phone/data lines, gas lines, electrical lines, water lines, and sewer lines, but you will also find the last 4 centuries worth of abandoned water lines, sewer lines, gas lines, etc. Norfolk at one point had gas lamps downtown. Those lines were never removed but they are not the same line we use for commercial delivery of gas. You would also find under our streets that the streets didn't always go there. In past construction projects, they have found building foundations under what are now streets. Finally, because most of Norfolk used to be water/wetlands, construction crews usually find centuries worth of garbage and debris that was dumped to fill the land.

This picture is from the Norfolk Public Library. It was taken around 1868. You can try to guess where it was, but you never will. The bridge in the picture was called the "Granby Street Bridge." It is NOT, however, our Granby Street Bridge. This Granby Street Bridge, made of stone, connects north and south Granby Streets. The waterway that it crossed is now called ... wait for it.... City Hall Avenue. Thats right. CITY HALL AVENUE. Just picture the Trader Tower where that shed is on the left side of the photo.

It is things like this that made Norfolk's light rail unpredictable Downtown.

Amazing. I heard it use to be a creek that ran down city hall ave and someone mention that might be the reason for the leaning building. I think a lot of pics we see of old DT is from around the 30s, that's a lot of change for that stretch of years.

[mikeas]

Near the Moses Myers House on Freemason St is a plaque with a map of old Norfolk and something to the effect of the shoreline used to be there. Basically everything south of Freemason St (which encompasses most all of downtown) was water and marshland at some point.

[Norfolk4Life]

there are apparently underground culverts that house most of the creeks that flowed downtown

[mlsimons]

there are apparently underground culverts that house most of the creeks that flowed downtown

How do you know that???

[Norfolk4Life]

i read about it in a historical article at the history room when it was at Kirn. They had all kinds of stuff that you wouldnt know about. Did you know that Norfolk has a fly ash dump (same stuff that poisoned Chesapeake groundwater) in relative close proxy to downtown?