Could Cecil Field reopen as a Navy Air Station?

[Viper]

I'm really trying hard not be angry and just state the facts but he keeps coming back with....nevermind. I'll just do what I can to ignore him from now on.

NC is pushing harder for a brand new jet base. I wonder how that might affect Cecil if it does reopen and this new base gets built.

[Captain Obvious]

While I agree that govt ownership is Socialism, and therefore undesirable ... I fail to see how incentives - manifested primarily as TAX REDUCTIONS for private enterprise - should be categorized as Socialism. Granted, I believe that tax reductions across the board is a far better form of economic development than targeted tax cuts ... but anyway...

Back to the actual topic of this thread (Cecil ... in case anyone forgot)

I'm not so sure that the Equestrian Center matters in my opinion about Cecil. I think the city should try to preserve it ... but if it came down to a 2 year old Equestrian Center vs. 11,000 jobs ... who should win?

Sure, the EC cost about $40 million dollars. But as far as I'm concerned, that $40 has already been wasted. 99.99% of Jax residents will never ever use it or derive any benifit from it. I sure as heck won't.

Again, the city government should do everything it can to protect the $40 million EC during this process ... but if it came down to it and re-opening Cecil really was the best choice ... would the EC really be enough to tip the scales? Personally, I don't think it would.

[Viper]

Nah, I doubt it would be a factor but I also think the city will push to save it and that the Navy won't push to take that land.

[RiversideGator]

never seen this level of anomosity in an UP board

You've obviously never been in the Coffee House section of UP.

[asonj23]

It does get pretty hostile in there, huh! You almost have to walk in swingin!

[Captain Obvious]

The main TU editorial basically puts to rest most of the complaints about Cecil. I think it is very well argued. The only big question that remains, is the only question that ever really mattered ... how much is it going to cost us?? Questions about jets noise, average incomes, and equestrian centers are all rather peripheral. We just need to know what's the darn cost.

Littlepage is still crusading against Cecil - which is certainly his perogative - but I've been unconvinced by his specific arguments. The costs seem to be worthwhile so far. (The most convincing thing for me is that the Commerce Center's largest company actually WANTS to be re-located to the JIAA industrial park. Seems like a win-win to me). But I think Littlepage will oppose re-opening Cecil no matter what the final numbers turn out to be. He's quite the Luddite.

From the TU

- Average pay is $53k-$66k depending on whether you want to count housing and food allowances (which increase discretionary spending power). Either way, current Jax civilian pay averages in at $41k. It's a vast improvement. Period.

- Noise. Zero people live in the crash zone. Only 7,000 live in the "noise zone." The noise zone will have jet noise in the 65db range ... "comparable to the sound of a clothes dryer, window air conditioner or food blender -- but quieter than a lawn mower or motorcycle."

- Both master jet bases actually have equestrian centers (which I find really strange, yet amusing) ... so clearly the govt. wouldn't need to shut down the EC.

[vicupstate]

how much is it going to cost us?? Questions about jets noise, average incomes, and equestrian centers are all rather peripheral. We just need to know what's the darn cost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So are you saying that if the jet noise were (in your view) substantial, and would be heard by a large number of people (frankly, I think 22,000 is substantial), and the average income was BELOW the Jacksonville average, and the $40mm investment by Jax taxpayers (for the Equestrian Center) would be lost to the Navy, that you would still support giving Cecil back to the Navy?

You want to give Cecil back to the Navy regardless of the consequences, as long as your taxes don't go up too much. Is that an accurate statement?

[Captain Obvious]

My opinion on a hypothetical scenario doesn't make re-opening Cecil any better nor any worse of an idea ... but okay, here goes ...

No, it's not an accurate statement that I would support Cecil without condition. All three of my so-called "peripheral" issues could have mattered ... but the reason they don't is because those 3 complaints seem to have been baseless. Some people complained based upon pure speculation, and thus far, they have been wrong (unless someone wants to argue that 65db over 7,000 is utterly unreasonable - which seems like a weak case). Therefore, the main issue remains the overall $$$ cost.

For example, the argument that "bringing in the Navy would have lowered Jax's average wage" never mattered because it's a pure smoke screen. Apparently no one has any hard data to back it up. The data shows an average wage increase. So unless anyone could back it up ... it's just speculation which detracts from the real issues.

Another example would be when Littlepage implied that re-opening Cecil would fill the Westside with strip-clubs. I think that's just cheap mud-slinging that avoids the real issues.

In my opinion, those real issues are the upfront relocation costs our city would have to pay, weighed against the overall economic impact.

[vicupstate]

This Letter to the Editor in the T-U makes an excellent point. Why not bring the jets down here for some practice takeoffs and landings. If the noise factor really is exagerated, that will be revealed. If the noise factor has been under estimated, that will be revealed too. Either way, conjecture will be replaced with fact. That is always a good thing. Dealing with the unknown inspires fear more than anything.

I also agree that the jets should fly over other Jax neighborhoods so those that would be unaffected by the noise, can hear for themselves what they are asking others to put up with under the guise of "the sound of freedom".

I still would like to see more info on the Cecil issue in general. Show us a breakdown of the Oceana payroll. I find it hard to believe that 12,000 people make an average $66,000 at that base. There are only 200 jets based there, how many pilots can there be? I'm sure that maintenance and training folks are well paid also, but I'm sure the custodian and food service folks make considerable less. It has been several weeks since the BRAC decision has been made, yet very little new info. has come out.

Nevertheless, I think VA's hold on the base has strengthened since the BRAC decision, IMO.

CECIL FIELD

Do not reopen facility

Since the mayor and his staff appear to be oblivious to the vast amount of negative responses to opening Cecil Field to the Navy, I think we need to refresh everyone's memory of what F-18s do to the quality of life for those who experience takeoffs, landings and touch-and-go exercises.

I recommend we have pilots from Oceana come down to Cecil Field for several weeks and show us what happens when they train. As part of the refresher course, the mayor and his staff should come to our neighborhoods, the new Catholic high school, Whitehouse and other areas directly affected by Navy activity.

As a corollary part of the mission, the Navy pilots should fly the same patterns in other areas of Jacksonville to let people in Arlington, San Marco, Ponte Vedra Beach and the Southside gain a greater appreciation of our concerns.

I think it would be an eye-opener for all to hear what noise levels really are. We all are patriotic Americans and want our Navy fliers to be trained well, but opening Cecil Field now is not the place to do it. We all would probably agree the original decision to move to Oceana was ill advised, but two wrongs do not make a right.

When the Navy moved and the Westside vision was presented as part of the Better Jacksonville Plan, we all were supportive. Currently, we are satisfied with what is happening on the Westside. Many of us would never have considered the Westside without that vision in mind.

It is doubtful sufficient planning was done on overall costs of the move and the impact on current economic growth on the Westside.

After the Navy exercises, another town meeting would require a much bigger venue than the equestrian center. We all experience flight patterns now, but P-3s doing touchdowns is considerably different then F-18s. That is a fact!!

BOB CURTIS

Jacksonville

[bobliocatt]

Does anyone know in which direction will the jets fly? North/South/West looks pretty clear of development, while the East is significantly developed. Knowing the direction that jets will fly should answer a lot about the noise issue.

Vic, according to the Hampton Roads Military Thread in the Virginia subforum, the projected costs to buy existing development in Oceana's encroachment areas now stands at nearly $700 million and once things get tied up in court the cost could exceed $1 billion. That's a lot of money to pony up to save a military base.

Btw, since the federal government has announced plans to cut back on other projects, to spend possibly $200 billion to rebuild New Orleans, could this affect a decision to spend millions to relocate to Cecil?

[vicupstate]

Southeast may get up to 6 new auto plants in coming years

I have been a frequent proponent of Jax and FL pursuing an auto plant for Cecil. The attached article states that as many as six such plants may select locations in the SE within the next 5 or so years. It also details the attractiveness of port access, distance from other auto plants, and being the only auto plant in a state. One of the consultants interviewed is based in Jax as well.

For instance, the ports of Jax, Brunswick and Savannah are ALL closer to Cecil than the port of Charleston is to the BMW plant here.

The longer the Cecil site is "tied up", the longer it will be out of contention for an auto or other plant.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm sure an auto plant would be a possitive economic development, but I honestly fail to see how it would be de facto superior to Cecil Feild re-opening as a Navy base? Nor do I see why anyone would want to ignore an actual development prospect with the navy, to leave a site open for a theoretical prospect with an as of yet unknown auto company?

Points I gleaned from that article.

- "They said automakers typically won

[vicupstate]

I'm sure an auto plant would be a possitive economic development, but I honestly fail to see how it would be de facto superior to Cecil Feild re-opening as a Navy base? Nor do I see why anyone would want to ignore an actual development prospect with the navy, to leave a site open for a theoretical prospect with an as of yet unknown auto company?

Points I gleaned from that article.

- "They said automakers typically won’t put a new plant within 50 miles of another company’s plant in order to avoid labor competition and other complications. " So this would be a one shot deal, then? If Cecil somehow became an auto plant, that's it for Jax. The other two metro supersites - and any other supersites the city could create - would not be marketable as additional auto plants, nor could we ever add another Navy base.  Whereas if the Navy came to Cecil, we could still try to lure an auto plant with the existing supersites.

- We would need to be prepared to offer over $100million in incentives and/or around $150,000 per job. So it's similarly expensive to lure the navy or an auto plant. Little advantage either way.

- "Several years ago, Price helped DaimlerChrysler AG select Pooler, Ga., near Savannah, for a new van plant, but the automaker so far hasn’t followed through with the project. " - Looks like the van plant we "lost" to Savannah never actually happened!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't neccesarily think that an auto plant would be a defacto superior choice to a re-opened Cecil. The only way to make that kind of judgement would require information which has not been forthcoming. One thing is known though, an auto plant wouldn't generate noise pollution that a re-opened Cecil would. By extention, it would also not de-value thousands of parcels of real estate on the Westside. Additionally, it would hire people that are largely already in Jax rather than stress the schools, infrastructure and cost of housing by "dropping" 12,000 plus newcomers into the area, thus creating substantial sprawl.

If Cecil re-opens, the entire base is taken. No further development would happen on the base's footprint. Nor would there be much (desireable) development in the immediate area, because of the noise. With an auto plant, only 1,500 acres would be consumed. There would still be over 15,000 acres available for some other industrial development.

There might be a site in the JAx metro area that could handle an auto plant, but there are only 10 sites in the entire state of SC that are suitable currently. Obviously, just any 1,500 acre site is not suitable for a plant. We do know that Cecil is.

As for being a "one shot", that may be true for the actual assembly plant, but a broad network of suppliers will build as well. Also, BMW has partnered with the state and Clemson University to build an Automotive Research campus. The first tenants are building now, and at eventual build-out, the job base at the campus could reach 20,000. The first 110 jobs will average $110,000. It doesn't have to be a "one-shot" development.

As for the Savannah plant, that is just the risk of business. Embraer may not build in Jax either. That's just life, it doesn't mean it was a mistake to pursue Embraer.

My broader point is that Cecil is in limbo, and may never re-open. There could be a protracted battle with as well. Other opportunities may be lost in the mean time.

[asonj23]

More Opposition to the Base reopening...

________________________________________________________________________________

_____

Population grows in Cecil's crash zone

Peyton and others lobbying to return the Navy to Cecil Field used wrong numbers

By DAVID DECAMP, The Times-Union

________________________________________________________________________________

_____

click here

[bobliocatt]

[bobliocatt]

Cecil protesters give council earful

Leaders of the Better Westside group hired a sound crew to blast the noise of fighter jets, just outside of city hall, as skeptical city council members recieved updated information on the Navy returning, from city planners and mayoral officials.

Inside, opponents applaused as Councilwoman Suzanne Jenkins made this comment.

We've spent all this money to take it from a jet base to a commerce center, and now we're going to pay the Navy to come back. They ought to be paying us"

Btw, there are only 68 homes in the primary crash zone and 826 in the secondary crash zone.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor...met_noise.shtml

[Urban_Legend]

^Whoa, that's the coolest protest I've seen in a while!!

[Captain Obvious]

It seems like all the Navy has to do is NOT fly jets out of the Eastern runway. Then almost no one at all would be even remotely affected by noise.

Also, the Better Westside group claims a noise level of 117 decibels from 1,000 feet away. How far away are these homes in the secondary crash zones (both horizontally and vertically)? What are the decibel levels once you move further away in height and distance from the base? What are the decible levels from the interior of a home?

Previous reports said noise wouldn't exceed 65 decibels, and I've yet to read an explict contradiction other than this new claim.

Btw ... I wonder if this protest was the first time some of these people had ever been downtown ?

[bobliocatt]

No, I'm sure many of the long time ones were forced to shop downtown, in the 1960s. Anyway, Branan Field Chaffee Road is more than 2,000ft east of the nearest runway. The only development about a 1,000ft away from the runways is the Dawson's Creek subdivision, which broke ground late 2004 or early 2005. From looking at aerials and maps, you're right. Noise would become a mute issue if planes take-off on the longer N-S runways or west.

[RiversideGator]

Dawson's Creek?? I hope there is an actual Creek with that name in the area. Any subdivision named for a bad 90s teen TV show deserves to be leveled.

[bobliocatt]

I'm not aware of an actual waterway named "Dawson's Creek", near Cecil Field. However, there is a drainage ditch around Cecil's property and some isolated wetlands. Consider it just another one of the typical suburban housing development names.

[scongro]

Sounds like a typical crappy subdivision name.

I live in Kernan Forest - ironic name because Centex and DR Horton did a good job of damn near every tree down.

[RiversideGator]

scongro: I agree. I have always found it ironic that these suburban "developers" usually name their subdivisions after what they destroyed to build the sudivision, i.e. Deerwood or ________ Forest.

[bobliocatt]

Well here's a pic of Dawson's Creek, the closest residential development to Cecil Field. It appears like there aren't even any completed homes at the development.

[Viper]

Well here's a pic of Dawson's Creek, the closest residential development to Cecil Field. It appears like there aren't even any completed homes at the development.

Image not viewable, Lake.

As was mentioned before, if flights are restricted from using the East flight path, all problems are solved. View this image again as it clearly shows he locations of Dawsons Creek and how easily it would be to avoid housing by limiting that runway.

It also shows Whitehouse and by way of a similar restriction of eastern takeoffs with a Southern vector can again avoid the housing. Granted, the Navy has to alter it's flight paths in Oceana a great deal already.