Could Cecil Field reopen as a Navy Air Station?

[asonj23]

Why worry about adding thousands to the city's population when we have a public transit system that does not work, schools that are overcrowded and streets that do not drain when it rains?

If you have such strong negative opinions of Jacksonville and have nothing better to do than to relentlessly argue any and every topic discussed on this forum, then maybe you should refrain from posting on this site and relocate to a city with perfect transit, one teacher per student, perfect drainage, and no heat or humidity.

Kindly keep the negative, pessimistic, biased, off-topic, and unresearched opinions to yourself.

[vicupstate]

According to Ron Littlepage's column, there will be a Town Hall meeting at 6:00 pm tonight to discuss the Cecil Base re-opening.

13611 Normandy Blvd. (Cecil Community center) at 6:00pm

Is anyone planning to attend? I encourage anyone that can to attend. What the news organizations will present will be a mere taste of what you leearn from actually being at a meeting such as this in person.

Also note that according to Littlepage the city will be surrendering 17,000 acres valued at 1.66 billion plus the $130 million the city has invested in the site since the base closed. That is on top of the $250 million that the city and state will spend to relocate the Cecil field businesses.

For better or worse, this is a HUGE decision in the future of Jax. The stakes are very high, far greater than whether the Jags stay or anything else for that matter.

[jeafl]

A couple of ways an NFL team benefits the community.

1. It gives us free press and national tv coverage, which has enhanced our image since 1995, from a backwater smelly city, into a budding metropolis.

[jeafl]

Well, technically, yes you do. Just from a sales tax standpoint, that translates into about $7million per year added to the state & city budgets. $500k per year would be specifically added to BJP funds ... or between $15-$20 million over the life of the BJP, thus aproximately .75%-1% of the total BJP cost theoretically funded by the economic impact of the Jags alone. And I don't even know if that includes the sales tax that the Jagshave to pay, or if the 100 million is just pure economic activity generated for third parties.

I don't really know if that's a good deal or not. I didn't really pay any attention to how much the city subsidizes the Jags. What are those numbers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all of this money coming in you'd think it something like the Wecsonnett expansion wouldn't take 2+ years. And I don't see how any of this money has filtered into the city's library system since the shlves are mostly empty or stocked with 30+ year old books, and aren't our schools still overcrowded?

[bobliocatt]

Big deal.  The more TV coverage Jacksonville gets the more people may want to move here thus adding to the city's traffic woes, overcrowded schools and rising cost of living.

The more tv coverage and positive press also attracts more well paying companies and a diverse amount of educated residents, thus increasing the tax base and converting the city from a big backwater country town to a true metropolitan city. Heck I'm one of those newer people. I make well over $33k and would have never moved here if I hadn't seen how the city boomed prior to the super bowl.

Jacksonville has had a stadium used for the annual Florida-Georgia game for how many decades without having an NFL team?  From what you say having an NFL game doesn't lead to anything more than a few added NFL games.  Is this really worth the money the taxpayers have to hand out to the Jaguars?

What events?  Other than football, what else is the stadium used for?  There once was a time when the fair used the Gator Bowl.  But, now the fair uses its own property and the Jaguars want that.

I said it attracts extra football events. Football is the most popular sport in the country. Events like the Gator Bowl, ACC Championship game, the Super Bowl, etc. bring millions of dollars into the local economy.

And just how many people in Jacksonville, with a per capita income of only around $33,000, can afford to attend a Jaguars game?

Evidently enough to give the third smallest metro higher numbers in attendance the more than half the league.

And I am assuming that NFL teams in cities like Charlotte provide the same benefits there as you say the Jaguars do here.  But, Charlotte has these benefits without the detriment of draining money from local taxpayers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cities like Charlotte also don't own their own stadium, so they don't get revenue from extra events like the Gator Bowl or ACC Championship game.

[jeafl]

Actually the Charlotte Metro area is larger than Jacksonville.  BY 300,000 or more as I recall.  Plus, as the only NFL team in either North or South Carolina, they can and do draw fans from all over both Carolinas.  The two states together have a population comparable to Florida's.

Additionally, the average income in the Charlotte Metro exceeds the national average by about 20%, while the Jacksonville average income is below the national average by something close to 10%.  Similiarly, Charlotte boasts 9-10 Fortune 500 companies versus Jacksonville's 3.  Obviously, the residents there have more disposable income for non-essential items like football tickets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Comparing city to city Jacksonville has about 100,000 more people than Charlotte and our per capita income is around $8000 more than Charlotte.

But, Charlotte

[jeafl]

If you have such strong negative opinions of Jacksonville and have nothing better to do than to relentlessly argue any and every topic discussed on this forum, then maybe you should refrain from posting on this site and relocate to a city with perfect transit, one teacher per student, perfect drainage, and no heat or humidity.

Kindly keep the negative, pessimistic, biased, off-topic, and unresearched opinions to yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

May I ask how long you have lived in Jacksonville?

[RiversideGator]

I have been here 33 years.

[scongro]

And just how many people in Jacksonville, with a per capita income of only around $33,000, can afford to attend a Jaguars game? Why don't you post the cost of the cheapest Jaguars ticket for a family of 3 people then add in the cost of a hot dog and drink for each. Also don't forget the parking fees

Parking: $10

Ticket to Game: $35 X 3 = $105

Hot Dogs: $3 X 3 = $9

Soda: $3 X 3 = $9

TOTAL: $133

Now look at this statistic:

2003 Median Income

Fulton County: 44,183

Duval County: 41,970

Miami-Dade County: 36,089

Phinadelphia County: 33,062

These other cities seem to do okay as far as fan support.

Source: HTTP://www.census.gov

And if Charlotte

[Viper]

Big deal.  The more TV coverage Jacksonville gets the more people may want to move here thus adding to the city's traffic woes, overcrowded schools and rising cost of living.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then please move so that we may drive easier, safer, pay less for services and goods, and have less burden on the posters in the Jacksonville forum of UP.

Go find some other city to gripe about.

I don't get you. You have the exact opposite opinion of everyone here and even when given facts, data and more, you still protest.

You can't possibly be married.

[bobliocatt]

Westside residents give Peyton an earful

NOT IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._19663188.shtml

[asonj23]

Then please move so that we may drive easier, safer, pay less for services and goods, and have less burden on the posters in the Jacksonville forum of UP.

Go find some other city to gripe about. 

I don't get you.  You have the exact opposite opinion of everyone here and even when given facts, data and more, you still protest.

You can't possibly be married.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where is the "Ignore" button? That is probably the only way to get him to leave.

You can't win with this guy.

[jeafl]

I have been here 33 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been here for 37 years; born and raised. Many of the issues we discuss here (the NFL and commuter rail) were topics when I was 10 years old and they are just as much of a problem now as they were then.

[jeafl]

Parking: $10

Ticket to Game: $35 X 3 = $105

Hot Dogs: $3 X 3 = $9

Soda: $3 X 3 = $9

TOTAL: $133

Now look at this statistic:

2003 Median Income

Fulton County: 44,183

Duval County: 41,970

Miami-Dade County: 36,089

Phinadelphia County: 33,062

These other cities seem to do okay as far as fan support.

Jacksonville

[jeafl]

Then please move so that we may drive easier, safer, pay less for services and goods, and have less burden on the posters in the Jacksonville forum of UP.

Go find some other city to gripe about. 

I don't get you.  You have the exact opposite opinion of everyone here and even when given facts, data and more, you still protest.

You can't possibly be married.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I obviously don't have the opposite opinion of the people that showed up to say no to Cecil Field last week. Perhaps it is posters like you that are out of sync with the People of Jacksonville.

[Viper]

Median Household Income.

Miami - $23,483

Tampa - $34,415

Orlando - $35,732

Jax - $40,316

Yes, 400 people of 804,000 spoke against Cecil. How exactly does that make you the majority?

Tax payer support.

$110 million in tax payer support has generated $1.5 billion in local revenue.

That my friend is a very sound investment if I ever heard one.

You make it sound as though Jax is the only team with a city owned stadium. Did you know that most are?

[jeafl]

Median Household Income.

Miami - $23,483

Tampa  - $34,415

Orlando - $35,732

Jax - $40,316

Yes, 400 people of 804,000 spoke against Cecil.  How exactly does that make you the majority?

Tax payer support.

$110 million in tax payer support has generated $1.5 billion in local revenue.

That my friend is a very sound investment if I ever heard one.

You make it sound as though Jax is the only team with a city owned stadium.  Did you know that most are?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

According to the 2000 census Jacksonville has 190,614 families. The median income means that 95,307 Jacksonville families earn less than $40,316 in your median income. How many of these families can afford a Jaguars game? And apparently not many families on the other side of the median can afford a game either- the team is facing yet another blackout.

And as I have pointed out before Jacksonville

[Viper]

You seriously need some economic education on a level not available in a forum.

Ever hear of incentives? We subsidize companies here all the time.

Many cities own there own stadiums as I keep poitning out and the Jags pay yearly rent of the facilities.

Gee, why would residents in support of Cecil need to go to the meeting if the city is the one backing the proposal?

[scongro]

And I guess that since all of you seem to agree that the city should support a private company, I.e., the Jaguars, that you wouldn

[bobliocatt]

It looks like the city misquoted the true amount of acreage it would give back to the Navy. The 2,190 acre $40 million equestrian center is also in question.

Cecil Field deal not as easy as pitched

[jeafl]

You seriously need some economic education on a level not available in a forum.

Ever hear of incentives?  We subsidize companies here all the time.

Many cities own there own stadiums as I keep poitning out and the Jags pay yearly rent of the facilities.

Gee, why would residents in support of Cecil need to go to the meeting if the city is the one backing the proposal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ever heard of socialism? I see no difference between government ownership and government incentives.

[jeafl]

FNF

Adam's Mark

Harbor Companies

Vestcor

Kimmick

American Land Ventures

Chase Properties

Craig/is

CitiCorp

America Online

Embraer

Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity

Do you need more?  This was 5 Minutes of thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now explain why it is right for the government to help any of these companies.

[scongro]

Fidelity: Moved their International Headquarters here (yes, International). They are a Fortune 500 company with a good reputation (not really an urban minded company). However, they have promised the city 750 jobs, with 500 being local hires, with an average salary of over $60K a year. Trading $12 million for this (when the city didn't even pay all of it) for a Fortune 500 corporate headquaters and 750 high paying jobs is well worth it to me.

Adam's Mark: Well I really have mixed fellings on this one, because we wouldn't have got the Super Bowl without it, and frankly, I'm very glad that happened. On the other hand, it was a huge government handout.

Harbor Companies: Somebody had to be first in the downtown residential market. I only wish the building actually looked urban. However, like I said, someone had to go first.

Vestcor: They rehabilitated two beautiful and historically significant buildings, that would have been cost prohibitive otherwise. I think this one is the easiest to justify.

Kimmick: See above. Yes, the building wasn't as historically significant, and didn't need as much work, but that's why they got $400K as opposed to $17 million+. It would be nice if they actually finished the job.

American Land Ventures: Similar to Harbor Companies, but the site was a Brownsfield location, so there was some federal money involved.

Chase Properties: See above, but their incentive deal is based on how much affordable housing there is. Sounds good to me.

Craig/is: They moved their headquarters from New York to Downtown. they are an IS compaqny moving their headquarters to Jacksonville. I don't remember exactly how much they got, but it didn't break the bank.

CitiCorp: They didn't receive any city money; they received $2 million from the state. Fine - the state has $2 million, and there was a slight risk of losing 5,000 jobs, including some tech jobs.

America Online: This one I really don't agree with. I think anyone with some foresight (and a bit of a tech background) knows that in about 4-5 years, they will be in the hole. I'm a tech guy, so if anyone wants my reasons, ask.

Embraer: Redevelopment of Cecil Field, a large airplane manufacturer. Done Deal, to me at least.

Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity: Again, this is stupid to me. They received the money like 6 years ago, and the building is not even close to being done. Bad Deal

Anyway, I answered your last question, but the list of companies was provided because you mentioned the Jaguars, and said, "...And I guess that since all of you seem to agree that the city should support a private company, I.e., the Jaguars, that you wouldn

[Viper]

Now explain why it is right for the government to help any of these companies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps because they provide more back to the economic environment than what was given to them?

Have you ever lived anywhere else? You point all this stuff out as if Jacksonville is the only city in America doing it? Reality check...they all do it. It's a business. It's like bidding for a contract.

As I told you, this is like bidding on a contract, multiple cities will put in incentive bids to attract that expanding company to their city (Not every case I'll grant). That's a very capitalistic concept. Socialism wouldn't offer that much, it would be subsidized by the government automatically, all companies, not just those of economic impact.

[jjoshjl]

Is it jsut me or does it feel like we are in some board debating religion...

Wow...

never seen this level of anomosity in an UP board

Cheers