Florida or North Carolina?

[monsoon]

The mindset may have not been there at the time the metro was built in DC, but its definately there now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. Unlike Miami, they have done a great job with using their new heavy rail system to get people onto mass transit.

[bobliocatt]

Riverside, that is fine.  Forgetting projections and plans on paper, here is a ranking or what is currently happening with rail transit in both states.  I still argue for its size, NC is doing much better than Fla.  The only place in Fla, that has anything close to reasonable rail transit is Miami yet it is bigger than Charlotte and RDU combined.  Not a good showing if you ask me.   

1. Miami (5M metro)

   heavy rail line

   commuter rail system

   metro mover

2. Charlotte (1.3M metro)

   2.5 mile Trolley System

   LRT under construction

   35 Commuter rail system in environmental studies

   Southern terminus for NC intra-state railsystem

   Southern terminus for SEHSPR (in Tier II environmental studies)

3. RDU (1.2M metro)

   35 mile dual tracked commuter rail system, awaiting Full Funding letter, Contract awarded for trainsets. 

   Main hub for NC intra-state railsystem

   Detailed track and Route design taking place for SEHSR from RDU to Richmond

4. Tampa (2.3M metro)

   2.5 Mile Historic Trolley

5. Jacksonville (1.2M metro)

   Skyway system (closes on Sunday)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't list all of NC's future rail plans and totally leave out Florida's, as if nothing is on the drawing board. Some you left out, in various stages of planning include:

Tampa/St. Petersburg

1. Streetcar expansion

2. Pinellas County Monorail system

Orlando

1. Commuter Rail

2. Light Rail

Jacksonville

1. BRT (future light rail)

Right-of-way purchasing has already begun and list line should be open by 2009.

Fort Lauderdale

1. Streetcar system

2. Tri-Rail expansion on FEC tracks

Miami

1. Baylink LTR

2. Streetcar line

3. Heavy Rail Expansion

[bobliocatt]

Indeed.

[monsoon]

You can't list all of NC's future rail plans and totally leave out Florida's, as if nothing is on the drawing board.  Some you left out, in various stages of planning include:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My list only included funded work and did not include buses.

[bic]

You can't bring up what Charlotte's mass transit situation will be like 20 years from now and compare it to Florida's current systems. Each city in Florida has major plans for new rail lines, many of which will be implemented by 2025.

Have a glance at what could be in place in Orlando by then:

That map does not show the high-speed rail connection from Orlando International Airport to the Convention Center and Tampa or the light rail expansion that would extend north to Sanford, and from Ocoee in the west to UCF in the east via the downtown intermodal station. And yes, this is all part of Metroplan Orlando's Year 2025 Long Range Transportation Plan.

Commuter Rail

The Central Florida Commuter Rail has a proposed 61-mile route through Volusia, Seminole, Orange, and Osceola Counties. The initial operating segment would be up and running in 2009, with the south corridor opening in 2011. This map does not show the portion of the route that would serve Volusia County:

N/S Light Rail

The alignment proposed for the Central Florida Light Rail project would link Altamonte Springs with south Orange County with 22 miles of track. Its route map can be seen in the first image posted above.

OIA Connector Light Rail Transit

Simply stated, the OIA Connector Light Rail Transit would be a 14-mile long light rail system, connecting the Orlando International Airport with International Drive. The system is being planned as an extension of the North/South Light Rail project. What's more, with proposed intermodal stations located along the route, passengers can connect to proposed commuter and high speed rail, as well as the proposed I-Drive Circulator transit system. Public and private ground transportation will also connect to the system.

I-Drive Circulator

The I-Drive circulator would follow an 8-mile route in and around the International Drive corridor, essentially connecting Sea World to Unversal Studios to Belz Factory Outlets, and points in between. Located on the system would also be one of Orlando's proposed Intermodal Centers (Canadian Court Intermodal Center), where passengers can connect to the proposed OIA Connector and North/South Light Rail Systems.

Florida High Speed Rail

This proposal is still up in the air, but if it were to go through, the first phase would consist of a line from Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center, Disney, Lakeland, and end in Tampa. Here's a map:

The system's long range goal would be to connect all of Florida's major cities via high-speed rail, but the second phase after connecting Orlando to Tampa/St. Pete would be from Orlando to Miami.

20 years is a long time. Some of these projects may be killed, and some new ones may be proposed-- it's the same way in every city. According to 2000 estimates, Florida's population is expected to grow by 79.5% to 28.6 million by 2030. Likewise, North Carolina's is projected to grow by 51.9% to be 12.2 million. Both states have a lot of work to do in order to accomodate this huge influx of people in the coming decades.

But back to the topic. If you want to talk about mass transit in 2025, then we have to bring up each city's proposals to keep it a level playing field. To put Charlotte, Raleigh, and smaller North Carolina cities up against the state of Florida consisting of Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, Ft. Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, etc. in a competition to find out who will have the most expansive rail network with the most ridership is a bit absurd.

To learn more about Central Florida rail, please visit CFRail.com.

To learn more about Florida High Speed Rail, please visit floridahighspeedrail.com.

[monsoon]

You can't list all of NC's future rail plans and totally leave out Florida's, as if nothing is on the drawing board.  Some you left out, in various stages of planning include:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said earlier, my list was for funded work in progress. The rest is just words on paper and don't mean anything. And I did not included buses.

Ft. Lauderdale's streetcars are these things..

Charlotte already has two lines like this, but as I mentioned earlier, I was only referring to rail based traffic.

The monorail in Pinellas county won't be built unless the people vote in a tax to pay for it. And even then it is a far fetched plan. The troubles that Seattle are having are probably going to kill any future plans like this. It should be noted that monorail proposals in the USA are dropping like flies in the hot sun because they are too expensive.

In the same funding cycle where Charlotte received approval for its LRT, they turned down Tampa's request. Tampa's request has been rejected 3 time and is probably now a dead plan.

[Aessotariq]

Ft. Lauderdale's streetcars are these things..

Wrong. Those are "trolley buses".

This is Phase I of the downtown Fort Lauderdale circulator, proposed and funded. Light rail. It will connect with the regional county system.

Broward County, as I posted in an earlier reply:

[monsoon]

You can't bring up what Charlotte's mass transit situation will be like 20 years from now and compare it to Florida's current systems. Each city in Florida has major plans for new rail lines, many of which will be implemented by 2025.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read my list on what is being funded now in NC vs what is being funded in Fla now. Fla isn't doing that well. I suspect that Orlando's system will follow Tampa's into the trash heap once the Feds are done with it.

I guess it is good they are trying.

[bic]

I suspect that Orlando's system will follow Tampa's into the trash heap once the Feds are done with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please cite your reasons for such a statement.

[Aessotariq]

Unlike Miami, they have done a great job with using their new heavy rail system to get people onto mass transit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like how you shifted the subject away from Charlotte and start comparing how "bad" Miami's system is, compared to other cities in the country.

But, I digress. You'd be amazed what can happen when you have enough money to complete the projects you originally intended to do.

DC had a 10 year early start and amenable funding sources. Metro's transit authority is funded by Maryland, Virginia, and the District. The federal government also kicked in subsidies to build the system. Biggest kudos for building five intricately-weaved lines and achieving the second-highest ridership in the country after New York. That is truly an extraordinary accomplishment, which shows great planning and cooperation among all agencies involved.

Miami's Metrorail opened in 1984. Had the county received proper funding for Metrorail and been able to expand beyond its existing system 20 years ago, I believe we'd all be telling a different story here. Instead critics were quick to write off and dismiss it as a failure. The most infamous blow was when Ronald Reagan remarked, only one year after the system was built, that it "would have been a lot cheaper to buy everyone a limousine.''

But, as Lakelander said, better late than never. The point is, it's being done now. The critical mass is there. The county has twice as many people now than it did 30 years ago. There are different people in office, and best of all, Florida DOT District 6 is very pro-transit.

It's somewhat disingenuous to disparage Miami's current system, yet tout how great Charlotte's future system will be, yet on the flipside say that Miami's future system will still not be up to par.

[monsoon]

Fair enough. I can accept that DC's Metro, while the same age as Miami's, received an unfair advantage due to it being the site of the Nation's capital.

Lets look at Atlanta then. It is also the other new heavy rail system in the USA and is the same age as the Miami system. Even Atlanta has managed to exceed the 250,000 daily ridership number which is many times higher than Miami. This is especially interesting as Atlanta is ususally pointed out to be the poster child of bad urban sprawl.

I will say that I didn't agree much with what Reagan had to say but considering it has been 2 decades since he said that, and Miami is still carrying less than 50K/day, he was probably correct.

[Brickell]

Ft. Lauderdale's streetcars are these things..

Charlotte already has two lines like this, but as I mentioned earlier, I was only referring to rail based traffic. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow. You steal the image from the website and don't even bother to read the caption.

The DDA will use the trolleys to demonstrate the implementation of the Fort Lauderdale Downtown Transportation Plan. The Downtown a&e Line runs Fridays 5pm -Midnight and Saturdays Noon-Midnight

It will be a real street car system and the first two phases are already funded.

We're big boys and girls here Metro, you should know better. We've seen this type of behavior from you before, you'll go to whatever lenghth to prove your point (even if it means making things up).

[monsoon]

I did read the caption. This is the only thing operating on the streets in Ft Lauderdale.

Of course if there is some information on funding for the real street car system I would be happy to see it and it is good news if they finally pulled this off. Would you please provide the info?

[Aessotariq]

Fair enough.  I can accept that DC's Metro, while the same age as Miami's, received an unfair advantage due to it being the site of the Nation's capital.

Metro's Red line opened in 1976 (source). Miami's Metrorail opened in 1984.

Lets look at Atlanta then.  It is also the other new heavy rail system in the USA and is the same age as the Miami system.  Even Atlanta has managed to exceed the 250,000 daily ridership number which is many times higher than Miami.  This is especially interesting as Atlanta is ususally pointed out to be the poster child of bad urban sprawl.

First of all, MARTA has two mainlines, an east-west and a north-south. It's much better equipped to serve as a spine for commuting across Atlanta, and connectivity to a greater service area is more attainable. If it extended farther beyond the perimeter, I'm sure its service would be even greater. But we already know that Cobb and Gwinnett won't have any part in that, right?

Anyways, back on topic: connecting MARTA to the airport was the smartest thing they could have done. This should have been included in the original plans for Metrorail. The political climate of the time didn't allow that to happen. Had the situation been a little bit different, Miami's initial alignment should have stopped at the airport and other dense locations of interest and importance. Instead, the segment of track north of downtown Miami is the result of a political quid quo pro, to prevent ths project from getting voted down by constituents whose neighborhoods weren't served.

Needless to say, Miami-Dade's ridership across all modes has been increasing steadily, especially since the passage of the new transportation sales tax, which has dramatically improved service and headways.

Dwelling on the past is unproductive, so let's look ahead. The Earlington Heights-MIC connector is the first step in correcting the problem. It will connect the existing Metrorail line with the new Miami Intermodal Center (MIC), currently under construction.

Finally we'll have that airport connectivity.

Also, the east-west line will run along major commercial and residential corridors, including the Blue Lagoon office district, Airport West, Doral, and Fontainebleau.

I will say that I didn't agree much with what Reagan had to say but considering it has been 2 decades since he said that, and Miami is still carrying less than 50K/day, he was probably correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One year after the system opened wasn't the right time to say it. That was the time to say... hey we need to finish what we started. Metro got finished to the point of optimum functionality. Once Metrorail goes to where people live and work, people will gladly give up sitting in traffic on the Palmetto Expressway, I-95, and the Dolphin Expressway.

[bobliocatt]

In the same funding cycle where Charlotte received approval for its LRT, they turned down Tampa's request.  Tampa's request has been rejected 3 time and is probably now a dead plan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just to clear some things up, Tampa was rejected because after 10 years of planning, HARTline still had failed to secure a local money source to match the FED's projected contribution. It also was unable to provide reliable ridership projections and was opposed by many city leaders. Until it can figure out these problems, it won't be considered for future money.

[bobliocatt]

My list only included funded work and did not include buses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since when did NC high speed rail and commuter rail in Raliegh and Charlotte get full funding? If they've already gotten full funding, then what's the hold up? Plus, from what I've seen and read about NC's Intra-State rail, is nothing more than an extension of Amtrak. After visiting their respective websites, I fail to see how any of these projects are in farther stages than the proposed Florida rail systems you ignore.

[monsoon]

Since when did NC high speed rail and commuter rail in Raliegh and Charlotte get full funding?  If they've already gotten full funding, then what's the hold up?  Plus, from what I've seen and read about NC's Intra-State rail, is nothing more than an extension of Amtrak.  After visiting their respective websites, I fail to see how any of these projects are in farther stages than the proposed Florida rail systems you ignore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My description listed funded work that was taking place on the lines. The CLT North line has received several Federal disbursments that has moved the planning on that line forward by years. The line in RDU, has received Federal and State disbursments and the local dedicated tax to the line is also paying for work. As I mentioned, the TTA has awarded a carrage contract and as I mentioned last week IBM donated a signifanct piece of property to be used on the TTA commuter line. This is not smoke or just plans on paper.

If you noticed, I indicated they were waiting on their respective full funding letters. Both are expected to get them in 2006 and construction will be begin in 2007.

More on the North line here. It shows the current work in progress. This is a complicated and choosing station locations has been a long process. We are having community meetings now on station design and ammenities at each station. There is a lot of public involvement and it is great.

[bobliocatt]

This may or may not have been mentioned so far, but here's the details to some of the projects under development in South Florida.

Miami Metrorail:

1. The 2.6 mile, $340 million MIC-Earlington Heights line is totally being funded by the local and state governments. Its scheduled to open in 2010. Once the connection from MIA to downtown is complete, expect metrorail's ridership numbers to jump significantly.

2. In addition, a $260 million monorail will be built MIC to the airport. It should open in 2009.

3. Miami is looking for 50% federal funding for the 10 mile East-West and 9.5 mile North lines scheduled to opening in 2012 & 2014.

Fort Lauderdale Streetcar lines:

4. Fort Lauderale's modern streetcar lines are estimated to cost $50 million of which 50% will be paid by the Feds and the city of FTL and the DDA paying the remaining 50%. The most interesting part of the plan is that the streetcar system will offer free service. Its planned to open in 2007/2008.

Funding rail transit yourself, without the help of the federal government and immediately offering free rail service are very impressive things to do and show ultimate support for rail transit.

[monsoon]

Agreed. Charlotte's Historic Electric Trolley system was built completely with local funds. And while it cost $1 to ride, the adjoining Gold Rush downtown bus trolleys offer free service. They carry 5000 riders/weekday free of charge.

[Aessotariq]

3. Miami is looking for 50% federal funding for the 10 mile East-West and 9.5 mile North lines scheduled to opening in 2012 & 2014.

Update: Miami's federal funding for Metrorail was approved in Congress's latest transportation bill.

--------------

Also, I wanted to point out some updates in ridership numbers you might be interested in.

Earlier I reported some Miami-Dade Transit statistics that showed average daily ridership of 207,698 on bus, 48,039 on Metrorail. This was in 2003.

Let me give you the latest numbers from MDT's monthly reports.

This is average weekday ridership for the month of May 2005:

Metrobus: 242,600 (+17% from FY 2003)

Metrorail: 60,700 (+26% from FY 2003)

Metromover: 30,100

April was even busier:

Metrobus: 251,400 (+21%)

Metrorail: 64,000 (+33%)

Metromover: 30,000

As you can see, the system is experiencing staggering growth, and it will only continue to grow as fuel prices increase, more TOD is built, and the system is expanded. So will Metrorail reach 100,000 average daily riders? At this rate, it's not a matter of if, but when.

This is the kind of TOD I'm talking about... This is Kendall, a Miami suburb, presently undergoing a huge construction boom. A new downtown is literally rising out of parking lots, across from the Dadeland Mall. What will bring all of this together and make this work is that there are 2 Metrorail stations where the construction is taking place. These two stations already have some of the highest ridership numbers in the system, and the Dadeland North station parking garage achieves 100% occupancy during the week. So far the new construction includes a Marriott hotel (highest occupancy rates in the county), a Courtyard Marriott, 4 office buildings, about 3 residential high-rise towers under construction, as well as 8-or-so mid-rise towers, with ground-level retail. The Marriott has been around since about 1997, and the rest of the towers have literally sprung up within the last 4 years. There are several more mixed-use complexes on the way as well, in planning or permitting stages.

[monsoon]

Metrorail: 60,700 (+26% from FY 2003)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder if this is the least used heavy rail system in the World?

[Aessotariq]

Is that all you have to say? You completely ignored the phenomenal growth rates I reported and sidetracked it with a red herring. If the scope of this discussion has shifted from regional to global, then it appears what I've said can't be refuted and I've proved my point.

My point is that ridership is up and will continue to go up. The numbers speak for themselves... Stagnant use for 10-20 years has turned around and is now up more than 25% on average. This is all within the short 3-year time period in which the transportation tax has been in place. Expansion will increase that.

[Lady Celeste]

And this one is really good.  Atlanta's Marta carries 286,000 on a weekday.  Again this system is the same age as Miami's 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Per Marta's website, Marta transports more than 300,000 passengers daily.

I'm just going off what their website says now.

I will ask this though.....can someone post current mileage totals and future millage totals for Florida's and North Carolina's systems. I think this will help in explaining daily ridership numbers. If a system only has 15 miles of track then 64,000 riders would be a pretty good number. I'm not trying to prove a point one way of the other....I'm just curious.

[Aessotariq]

Existing

Metrorail: 22.4 miles (heavy rail line) (the heaviest volume is experienced along the south part of the track, ~12-15 miles)

Metromover: 4.4 miles (downtown people mover circulator)

Busway: 14.68 miles (dedicated BRT right-of-way)

Tri-Rail: 72 miles (commuter rail line).

Future

Metrorail Earlington Heights connector: 2.6 miles

Metrorail North corridor: 9.5 miles

Metrorail East-west corridor: 10 miles

Busway extension: ~5 miles

Miami Streetcar: 6.75 miles (phase I) (light rail streetcar, local city circulator)

Baylink streetcar: 18.5 miles (Miami/Miami Beach cross-bay connector and beach circulator)

Fort Lauderdale downtown streetcar: ~3 miles

Broward County light rail: ~40 miles.

Tri-Rail double-tracking (72 miles)

Tri-Rail alignment along FEC railroad tracks (a second corridor that runs through downtown Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach, possibly light or commuter rail: ~85 miles (proposed, pending negotiations with Florida East Coast Industries, owner of tracks)

[bic]

When I go to the NCDOT web site and look at "Passenger Trains" in North Carolina, I see this:

Which is nothing more than an Amtrak route map. This is Amtrak's less colorful version:

So now we can bring Florida's Amtrak routes into the picture and tout them as our own passenger rail, right?

...but I don't think you want to do that because only Californa boasts more Amtrak stations than Florida.

When I go to "Future Service," it the page mentions that they are looking to expand service to southeastern North Carolina and western North Carolina. The only other mention of future rail plans say that NCDOT is planning commuter rail lines in the Charlotte, Triangle, and Triad regions; and that North Carolina and Virginia "will begin more detailed environmental and engineering studies to examine different track configurations." So what we have here is:

-Amtrak service being being brandished as "North Carolina Rail"

-Some high-speed rail planning that has not yet begun its detailed environmental and engineering studies. However, Florida completed these studies in 2003 for the first phase of its high-speed rail, and published a different planning study in 2003 for the second phase linking Orlando and Miami.

-Legitimate plans for commuter rail, which is on par with Florida's plans (excluding South Florida which already has commuter rail).