Florida or North Carolina?

[Viper]

Jax has over 7k units planned/approved/UC in just the urban core. How well does that stack up against Charlotte?

Just for the sake of it (urban core):

Miami - 17k

Jax - 7k

Tampa - 6k

West Palm Beach - 6k

St Pete - 6k

Ft. Laud - 6k

Orlando - 5k

Ft. Myers - 4k

[Brickell]

Miami currently has 73k large scale condo development units on record city wide. Most of those are in what most people would consider the urban core.

completed 8,477

U/C 11,161

approved 23,266

application 12,507

planned 17,868

36,758 units downtown.

along with 3,788 hotel units

6,532,721 sqft of office space

4,632,169 sqft of retail space

ps: http://www.miamigov.com/Planning/pages/lan...rgeScaleDev.asp

[monsoon]

I believe we already agreed that Miami is an urban area where NC has no comparison though I don't think that is a necessarily a bad thing. As stated above Miami is one of the most dangerous places to walk in the country, its known nationally for its drug related crime, its still has significant racial problems, and there are huge areas of poverty. (alongside with fabulous wealth)

There are other issues with it being so far from the rest of the USA which is really a personal thing, but when I lived in Palm Beach county it was one of the many things that I really didn't like about the area. I did find it interesting the residents of Boca just cringed at being included in anything that would lump them in together with the likes of Dade and Broward counties. I would take from that they don't consider Miami in high regard either.

[up+down=midtown]

but i mean jax,tampa,orlando are at the same level as charlotte,

ft.l is at the same or above raleigh and miami is way above any city in NC so how is this comparison in any regard close.

[Brickell]

I believe we already agreed that Miami is an urban area where NC has no comparison though I don't think that is a necessarily a bad thing.  As stated above Miami is one of the most dangerous places to walk in the country, its known nationally for its drug related crime,  its still has significant racial problems, and there are huge areas of poverty.  (alongside with fabulous wealth)

There are other issues with it being so far from the rest of the USA which is really a personal thing, but when I lived in Palm Beach county it was one of the many things that I really didn't like about the area.  I did find it interesting the residents of Boca just cringed at being included in anything that would lump them in together with the likes of Dade and Broward counties.    I would take from that they don't consider Miami in high regard either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You keep throwing around these stereotypes as if they were facts. Miami has changed in the last 15 years. Believe it or not. It's in the process of reinventing itself yet again. Are there problems... sure. But simply put, Miami is something NC can't match, no matter what kind of sour grapes you make of it.

[bobliocatt]

I'd put Fort Lauderdale right up there with Charlotte and the others. It just gets overlooked because of its proximity to Miami. Nevertheless, Broward County is one of the fastest growing large core population centers in the South, its more diverse and denser than Mecklenburg, its a leader in black migration, it already has commuter rail and serious plans to expand it, as well as build two streetcar lines and its one of the more wealthy areas in the South.

[Viper]

By no means perfect due to lack of submissions or out of date records, the following gives a brief example of the business at hand in both states by comparing building projects completed, approved/proposed and under construction (12 storys +).

FL:


City  - complete - app/prop - U/C


Miami   - 193    -   121    -  55

Ft Laud - 117    -    28    -  12

Tampa   -  56    -    17    -  10

Orlando -  52    -    29    -   9

Jax     -  52    -    15    -   10

WPB     -  44    -    15    -   5

Ft Myers-  16    -    27    -  10

St Pete -  36    -    10    -   2

Sarasota-  38    -     9    -   6

Naples  -  87    -     3    -   4



NC:


City   -  complete - app/prop - U/C


CHAR   -     53    -    13    -  3

RAL    -     21    -     5    -  1

GREEN  -     14    -     1    -  0

W-S    -     17    -     0    -  0

ASHE   -      8    -     0    -  0

DURHAM -      4    -     3    -  0

FAY    -      2    -     0    -  0

WILM   -      2    -     0    -  0

CARY   -      0    -     0    -  0

[monsoon]

Yeah, the information is way out of date in the case of Charlotte. It is interesting however how this keeps shifting from a comparison of Fla's secondary cities to the ones in NC back to Miami which seems to be the only area, due to its size that compares on paper to the much smaller cities in NC. I think that speaks volumes as to how well the cities and state of NC is doing. We don't need to wait until a metro reaches 4M to start building passenger rail systems.

BTW, In this comparison of states it should be noted that Florida always suffers a Net Domestic Migration loss when it comes to North Carolina. i.e. more people move from Fla to NC than the other way around. I just got brand new neighbors that sold out and left Orlando for Charlotte. I asked them why they did this and they said, really bad growth making traffic unbearable, too hot and miserable throughout most of the year, and caliber of people moving into the area.

[Viper]

The point is you were saying that Fl, Miami specifically, was having business problems. I think just by looking at that list that it shows not only is there not a problem in Miami but everyone of those Fl cities is booming. I also don't quite understand what you mean in the second sentence. Are you suggesting that NC secondary cities compare to Miami simply due to some form of commuter rail?

I figured Charlotte was out of date as was Jacksonvilles but I've repreatedly tried to get these figures updated with no luck for several months now.

Net Domestic Migration for each state (2000-2003):

FL - 540,529

NC - 107,541

Net Domestic Migration between FL and NC (1995-2000):

FL to NC - 96k

NC to FL - 57k

Migration to population ratio:

FL - 0.56% of FL residents are moving to NC

NC - 0.67% of NC residents are moving to FL.

Looks like more total people moved to NC but FL is taking a higher percentage of the others population back.

[bobliocatt]

We do have a lot of retirees who move to Florida and find out that its not as slow or sparsely populated as they originally thought.....thus they move to slower-paced southern states like NC and GA. I wouldn't be suprised to also see that some who have moved are the ones that probably don't approve of the ethnically diverse population rapidly moving in.

We don't need to wait until a metro reaches 4M to start building passenger rail systems.

We're not Michigan. I could have sworn Miami's metrorail has been around for over 20 years? While we may not have the best types of rail systems or results, we have a history of dibbling and dabbling with different forms of passenger rail.

Tampa (2.5 million) - 2.5 mile streetcar line

Orlando (2 million) - 60 mile commuter rail (will be up and running around the same time as Charlotte's starter light rail line)

Jacksonville (1.3 million) - 2.5 mile skyway line (was well less than 1 million, when originally built)

[depechecureguyorl]

Phew...going back a few paces...Miami is NOT littered w/Crime, prostitution and drugs, much to the dismay of "GTA Vice City" fans and gone are the days of "Miami Vice" and "Scarface". I can't believe people STILL go back to those old sterotypes when they think of Miami. That just tells me they have never been to the city at all. I could provide a long diatribe boosting Miami and all the good things about it, but the good folks from that city have already done it for me. I would move there if the housing prices weren't so high.

Speaking of housing prices, it was just released today that 6 out of the 10 hottest real estate markets in the US are located right here in Florida! #1 was Phoenix, AZ. Orlando is #4. Read the article below to find out more...this is just one of the things that proves to me that Florida outpaces NC. As I said before, NC is very nice to VISIT, but I wouldn't want to LIVE there.

Metro Areas See Historically High Home-Price Gains

[depechecureguyorl]

Oh, and before the Charlotte boosters start firing away at me about my last post...here is the same article from the "Charlotte Observer" and what it says about Charlotte's home market. I think the article said something about "lukewarm"?

Home Prices Soar Across U.S.

[monsoon]

We do have a lot of retirees who move to Florida and find out that its not as slow or sparsely populated as they originally thought.....thus they move to slower-paced southern states like NC and GA.  I wouldn't be suprised to also see that some who have moved are the ones that probably don't approve of the ethnically diverse population rapidly moving in.

We're not Michigan.  I could have sworn Miami's metrorail has been around for over 20 years?  While we may not have the best types of rail systems or results, we have a history of dibbling and dabbling with different forms of passenger rail.

Tampa (2.5 million) - 2.5 mile streetcar line

Orlando (2 million) - 60 mile commuter rail (will be up and running around the same time as Charlotte's starter light rail line)

Jacksonville (1.3 million) - 2.5 mile skyway line (was well less than 1 million, when originally built)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually the system in Orlando is only proposed. It does not have Federal funding and faces a very long process in getting it, if at all. Since Orlando is seeking 50% federal funding it won't be built without it. Charlotte's system on the other hand was only 4 of the over 25 seeking approval this year and is currently under construction. Before Orlando even comes close to getting federal approval, Charlotte will also be building its Commuter Rail and other LRTs. The reason that Charlotte won out over the other systems was due to its TOD planning around the line. Something that doesn't exist in Orlando.

Tampa's historic streetcar line and the Jacksonville are not rail based mass transit. They are tourist attractions for what they do to the city. In fact, the Feds are loath to fund new systems due in part to the failure of the Jacksonville system's ridership numbers. It doesn't go where it needs to go and there is no planning or development to take advantage of it. The Feds concluded it would have been cheaper for the government to simply buy cab fare for the riders.

The system in Miami that you are referring to is small Metrolink system. (similar to the skyway in Jacksonville) It too was considered a failure when built and only now is starting to show some good ridership numbers. This is mostly in part to the MetroRail and commuter rail systems that are bringing in people from the other parts of the 4M metro. So I was correct in my statement on this.

As I said earlier, in 2005 in the more than 25 systems seeking funding for a new rail transit system, Charlotte was only one of 4 that received funding and the only one in the South. This is due to the planning, zoning and TOD development that will support such a line. Not bad for a city that much smaller than Miami.

Frankly for a state with 17 million people to only have one heavy rail system, one commuter rail system and couple of tourist attractions is really embarrising for Florida. It should be doing much better than this.

[bobliocatt]

Before Orlando even comes close to getting federal approval, Charlotte will also be building its Commuter Rail and other LRTs.  The reason that Charlotte won out over the other systems was due to its TOD planning around the line.  Something that doesn't exist in Orlando.

I wasn't aware that Charlotte already has funding lined up for ALL its commuter rail and other LRT proposals. We still have to see if this thing will be a success, after all, the city will be the most suburban metropolitan area to get light rail. Hopefully it works out, because it would prove rail can work anywhere. I'd like to here more about how they got the Feds to fund all of these systems.

Tampa's historic streetcar line and the Jacksonville are not rail based mass transit.  They are tourist attractions for what they do to the city.  In fact, the Feds are loath to fund new systems due in part to the failure of the Jacksonville system's ridership numbers.  It doesn't go where it needs to go and there is no planning or development to take advantage of it.  The Feds concluded it would have been cheaper for the government to simply buy cab fare for the riders.

While these systems aren't nothing to brag about, in the grand scheme of things, they are forms of rail transit and are currently attracting billions of dollars in TOD. Check out these cities development threads for further detail.

The system in Miami that you are referring to is small Metrolink system.  (similar to the skyway in Jacksonville)  It too was considered a failure when built and only now is starting to show some good ridership numbers.  This is mostly in part to the MetroRail and commuter rail systems that are bringing in people from the other parts of the 4M metro.  So I was correct in my statement on this.

No, the system i'm talking about is metrorail, which has been running, at least since the 1980's. The system you're describing is Metromover, which has been recently expanded and is the only FREE rail system in the South. As far as these peoplemover systems go, they were intended to be downtown connector systems with other mass transit systems bringing riders into them. Since Miami's system is the only one connecting to other citywide transit systems, the others (Jax & Detroit) can't be labled failures because they're incomplete.

As I said earlier, in 2005 in the more than 25 systems seeking funding for a new rail transit system, Charlotte was only one of 4 that received funding and the only one in the South.  This is due to the planning, zoning and TOD development that will support such a line.  Not bad for a city that much smaller than Miami. 

Frankly for a state with 17 million people to only have one heavy rail system, one commuter rail system and couple of tourist attractions is really embarrising for Florida.  It should be doing much better than this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course things can be better, but don't act like NC is leading the way, just because Charlotte got recently approved for a starter rail line.

[bic]

Jax has over 7k units planned/approved/UC in just the urban core.  How well does that stack up against Charlotte?

Just for the sake of it (urban core):

Miami - 17k

Jax - 7k

Tampa - 6k

West Palm Beach - 6k

St Pete - 6k

Ft. Laud -  6k

Orlando - 5k

Ft. Myers - 4k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the record, Orlando has approximately 7,600 units that are either proposed, approved, or under construction in downtown alone. There are also a couple of *major* development projects on the drawing boards that have not yet revealed how many units they will house (new Pizzuti and Kodsi's Main & Main).

With Orlando's current downtown population of approximately 17,000, an average of 2 people per unit should bring the population to about 32,000 in the next few years.

Compare this to other cities' current downtown populations:

-Boston - 80,000

-Minneapolis - 30,000-35,000

-Atlanta - 30,000

-Miami - 20,000

-San Diego - 20,000

-Charlotte - 10,000

-Detroit - 6,500

-Austin - 5,300

-Houston - 3,000

Most of these figures were taken from the controversial "Downtown Population, what's yours?" thread, but should be fairly decent ballpark estimates. And yes, all of these cities' downtowns are rapidly growing as well, but it's still impressive to see that Orlando's downtown population would be greater than current Atlanta's, Miami's, San Diego's, etc. in a few years.

[ATLBrain]

I don't see much of a comparison here. I love FLA... I have a home at Amelia Island. Plus, I love the no state income tax in FLA!

BTW: I've always felt quite safe walking around in Miami. Now, I've been mostly around my aunt's home in Coconut Grove, but I have been downtown after dark and to M.B. along Collins. Like any huge, cosmopolitan city, it gets its share of undesirables. But to me, it's FLA by a mile.

[Viper]

The problem with CBD populations is similar to comparing regular city populations. Size. I've seen some listed as only 1 square mile and others at 5.

Southern cities tend to be much more corporate in their CBD's as well futher complicating things.

As for the actual figures for each of those cities, I believe they, Jax aside because I tallied it myself (though they are still some unkown figures as well), are short for most of them due to the questionable research done by the author of the article I took the figures from. Still, they do show overall that Florida is booming in all downtowns.

[monsoon]

No, the system i'm talking about is metrorail, which has been running, at least since the 1980's.  The system you're describing is Metromover, which has been recently expanded and is the only FREE rail system in the South.  As far as these peoplemover systems go, they were intended to be downtown connector systems with other mass transit systems bringing riders into them.  Since Miami's system is the only one connecting to other citywide transit systems, the others (Jax & Detroit) can't be labled failures because they're incomplete.

Of course things can be better, but don't act like NC is leading the way, just because Charlotte got recently approved for a starter rail line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Opps, you are correct, it was MetroRail that was considered the failure. And considering that even today daily ridership is only 46K I would not call it anything close to being a success. 46K (50K at best) is not good at all for a state of 17 million people.

Charlotte has received a full funding agreement for its Light Rail line and construction is underway and 16 trains have been ordered from Siemens. Charlotte has also received Federal funding for its North Commuter rail line that is paying for environmental studies, station design, track design, and is exploring options for the type of transit that will be used. There is a booked plan to begin construction in 2007 but they will have to get a full funding letter for it was well. It is well well ahead of Orlando.

Charlotte's Trolley system, which is as large as the one in Tampa was paid for with local money.

Likewise the commuter rail system planned for RDU is well ahead of that in Orlando. It too has alread received Federal and State funding and is awaiting on its full funding letter from the Feds. And just two days ago IBM announced it was donating a significant piece of property for part of the track and a station. I don't believe that Orlando even has state approval yet. It will be interesting to see if anti-transit Jeb Bush puts an end to the Orlando plan as he did with the high speed rail.

We have already compared the HSPR plans of NC to Fla, so I won't bother with that again. Again, not bad for a state that has 1/2 of the population of Fla.

[Viper]

46K (50K at best) is not good at all for a state of 17 million people.

Shouldn't that be 46k for an area of about 3-4 million? Miami's rail line doesn't service all fo Fl...just local Miami.

OK, NC has better future mass transit plans. Congrats.

FL, has better urban settings and they are also booming far more so than NC. Charlotte being the only one doing anything major in the urban area for NC.

Since Raleigh is growing so fast yet has so little going on DT, I can safely assume that is almost 100% sprawl growth.

We've also uncovered that Fl has a higher ratio of people moving to Fl than Fl has of people moving to NC.

Both are natural beauties for different reasons.

Both are growing fast in many aspects.

Both have die hard residents.

[Brickell]

OK, NC has better future mass transit plans.  Congrats.

which is still debatable. Charlotte has better transit plans than Orlando and Tampa. Miami plans to double the Metrorail system in the short term and triple it in the long term. Along with a localy paid trolley system for the city of miami, a Intermodal Center for the airport. There's also the double tracking of the commuter rail line and well as a 2nd one in the studying stages.

This is no contest.

[Aessotariq]

48,000 daily riders on Metrorail.. Not bad for a single line of 22 miles. Not bad considering the billions of dollars in mixed-use transit-oriented development being built along that corridor or already completed. We literally have a brand new downtown rising out of old parking lots -- in the suburbs, all thanks to Metrorail. Not bad for a system that's about to be doubled in size within the next 10 years. Imagine how much of the bus system's 208,000 daily riders will switch over once that's complete, not to mentioned the 130,000 or so from Broward County (and their upcoming 30+ miles of LRT).

On top of that, the double-tracking of Tri-Rail, almost complete, as well as the new local streetcar circulators starting soon, Baylink, etc.

[RiversideGator]

I just got brand new neighbors that sold out and left Orlando for Charlotte. I asked them why they did this and they said, really bad growth making traffic unbearable, too hot and miserable throughout most of the year, and caliber of people moving into the area.

Such anecdotal evidence is useless in determining which state is a better place to live. For every one person you know who left FL for NC, I can name you 4 people I know who live in NC (Charlotte and Raleigh) who cant wait to leave and move to FL (Jacksonville). As for the net domestic migration numbers, this is more likely caused by the phenomenon of Floridians retiring to the mountains of North Carolina, not city dwellers in FL moving to cities in NC.

As for the transit developments, I think monsoon is wrong here. Miami ALONE has more rail transit in place (and planned) than the entire state of North Carolina. I am glad Charlotte is apparently moving forward with rail transit and I hope it succeeds, but please dont exaggerate things here.

[A2]

Such anecdotal evidence is useless in determining which state is a better place to live.

[EastSideResider]

No offense RiversideGator but your friends are four of the few that want to move out of Charlotte and Raleigh. When I went there it was great and if you look at the posts others think that too. But I respect you're opinion.

[monsoon]

Both have die hard residents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True