New Saks Fifth Avenue in former Montaldo's?

[f0xym0p]

I wish downtown Charlotte could be more like downtown Indianapolis. I think the retail works there because there isn't much of an alternative for shoppers like there is here. Downtown Indy is the place to be and there isn't much else near downtown to draw from it.

There is a parking deck attached to Circle Center Mall, but it charges at all times. People don't seem to mind. There's no mass transit to speak of, less than what we have now in Charlotte. Their downtown just has a totally different atmosphere--it feels more casual and welcoming for lots of different age ranges. It has tons of chain restaurants, a mall with a movie theatre, as well as non-chain eateries and quirky shops. Also, the mall does not allow people under 16 at night.

[atlrvr]

In reality though, most people who shop in downtown Portland drive (though MAX does stop a block away)....they do have a large parking deck attached to the mall.

Also, it is much more difficult to access downtown Portland than Charlotte due to the bridges over the Willamette, really only people coming from Beaverton have direct access.....still, they are usually busy there, and the parking deck is full.

I believe it is an attitude difference that makes these places successful. I think Charlotteans are much less progressive minded than they were in the late 90's.

[monsoon]

It is a difficult nut to crack considering the present situation here. It is tough to compete with the convenience of a mall, especially when the city has no problem approving up more malls when any developer wants to build one.

I really don't see the downtown shopping situation changing unless the mass transit system really takes off and people use it all hours of the day, and/or a new or unique shopping tourist experience is created that would draw people into the center city. Unfortunately the city has invested all of its money in an arena for the NBA which isn't going to do JS for the shopping situation, so I don't think you are going to see any attractions in the near future.

[dubone]

it is an easy nut to crack... if saks wants the convenience factor, put in valet parking. what difference does it make how hard it is to park if a 17 year old kid is doing it for you. pulling the benz up to the front door of a hypothetical downtown saks would actually be more convenient than pulling up to the front door of south park.

i think if the restaurants can do it, and southpark can do it, it shouldn't be too hard for them to do it for an uptown department store.

[csedwards72]

it is an easy nut to crack... if saks wants the convenience factor, put in valet parking.  what difference does it make how hard it is to park if a 17 year old kid is doing it for you.  pulling the benz up to the front door of a hypothetical downtown saks would actually be more convenient than pulling up to the front door of south park.

i think if the restaurants can do it, and southpark can do it, it shouldn't be too hard for them to do it for an uptown department store.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is an absolutely perfect idea!

It would also make Saks seem even fancier (as if it needed it).

[Miesian Corners]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but Hearst Tower (that big 46-story skyscraper on the same block as Craft+Design) has a parking garage with 1,500 spaces. There's plenty-o parking for Saks if it decides to open here.

FYI, the downtown Pittsburgh Saks is closing.

Downtown Indy is far different than uptown Charlotte. While very nice, Indianapolis City Center is a suburban, climate-controlled mall plopped down in the middle of downtown. Nothing "urban" about it. It's SouthPark with skyscrapers and a state capitol building.

[monsoon]

it is an easy nut to crack... if saks wants the convenience factor, put in valet parking.  what difference does it make how hard it is to park if a 17 year old kid is doing it for you.  pulling the benz up to the front door of a hypothetical downtown saks would actually be more convenient than pulling up to the front door of south park.

i think if the restaurants can do it, and southpark can do it, it shouldn't be too hard for them to do it for an uptown department store.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was speaking in general terms. Not specifically about SAKs.

[skylinedrive]

Hello all, this is my first post here. I have been reading these forums for a while and decided to join and participate.

I live about halfway between downtown and SouthPark and think that a SAKS would be great for downtown. It is something that I would check out. If they go in the Mint Muesem location then I don't think parking would be an issue with the Hearst tower deck right next to the building. I'm sure that BofA would work out a deal where Saks shoppers could park for free or at a discounted rate.

SouthPark mall's parking is all in decks now, so if us suburbanites can park in a garage there, then surely we can park in one downtown. Crime is always going to be an issue, remember all the shootings that happened at SouthPark mall last year? That didn't stop anyone from going. If the Saks they build downtown is worth going to, then people will make the extra effort to get there.

[dubone]

welcome to the forum, skylinedrive!

i agree with you that if the saks is worth going to, people will overcome the parking thing. If the Saks business is failing nationally, though, i wonder if that can happen in any sustainable way. hopefully, though.

Hopefully at some point, the residential density downtown and wealth within a mile or two of downtown will make it irrelevant whether suburban shoppers come downtown.

[bork]

I would love to see some smaller niche stores open downtown - I think these would do well. The types of shops that people browse in, not a large department store that people drive to, park, shop, leave.

I'm thinking along the same lines as NOFO (just opened in Elizabeth, next to the Vislulite) or Paper Skyscraper or something similar. Perhaps a record store?

I truly think that if we could turn Founders Hall / Overstreet Mall inside out, it would do wonders for downtown. I actually know people who LIVE downtown and have no idea that the overstreet mall exists.

[Sabaidee]

Charlotte has no need for the Overstreet Mall system, it was copied after other cities, while those cities like Minneapolis and Portland have the need for one, Minneapolis has short summer and really bad winters and Portland, being in the Northwest, it rains a lot.

[appatone]

I actually know people who LIVE downtown and have no idea that the overstreet mall exists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true. I wonder if we could learn a thing or two from Asheville as well seeing as how there downtown boutique retail seems to be thriving.

[StevenRocks]

FYI, the downtown Pittsburgh Saks is closing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The downtown Minneapolis Saks is closing, but to my knowledge the Pittsburgh store is still open. Where'd you get your information?

[csedwards72]

I read a book about mall development and one key point it made is that a key factor in mall success is having enough critical mass of stores; malls with the most stores usually shut out smaller malls. I'd be concerned that the Myers Park crowd would just keep driving to SouthPark rather than driving uptown just for one small department store and that an uptown Saks would get most all of its sales from uptown office workers, convention attendees, etc. Then again, downtown Greenville, SC just lured Mast General Store, which is basically a department store, and it seems to do extremely well, even though there are no other department stores downtown.

Out of curiosity, what killed Belk and Ivey's uptown? Were they just run-down? Were the in-line tenants uptown not as good as the ones at SouthPark?

[49er]

I always thought Founders Hall could be revamped with more retail and a dept store anchor could be built as part of a mixed use building across College St, when the Lincoln Harris tower would have gone. It would create a good mix of stores and at least some critical mass.

It really is dumb for a dept store to come downtown with absolutely no other retail present. A deal would have to be structured so there were at least 15-20 complementary stores adjacent to it.

The big problem is that all the retail storefronts were torn down, so there really are no good retail streets to add shops.

[monsoon]

The big problem is that all the retail storefronts were torn down, so there really are no good retail streets to add shops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. That was the biggest tragedy in the building of the BofA tower. A pretty building from the distance, it destroyed blocks of retail. (As did its predecessor across Trade)

[Miesian Corners]

The downtown Minneapolis Saks is closing, but to my knowledge the Pittsburgh store is still open.  Where'd you get your information?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, you're right SR. The 5-year old Lord & Taylor is closing, not Saks.

To be fair, the BofA tower repalced a block that had already been decimated by Belk. The interiors of five main structures in the block were gutted to form one store. Belk's original store was on East Trade (where the overstreet mall connects the Omni Hotel and the Corporate Center) and it bought Efird's Department store in the mid 60's which faced Tryon (directly in front of Ivey's). Belk then demolished the buildings at the corner of College and 5th for a 5-story windowless addition and connected the dots. The Square was faced with a 2-story Eckerd Drug which filled in corner between the original Belk and Efird stores.

[csedwards72]

Does anyone know why Founders Hall is a beautiful mall with just local chains (other than Jos. A. Bank) in it? Is BofA trying to promote local stores? Or do no national tenants want to come there? Do those stores get a good deal on the rent? I'd assume national chains might come there if Saks comes to the block next door, particularly if the walkway to Hearst Tower and the lobby/staircases of Hearst Tower are reconfigured to make them retail-friendly.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

If they build a Saks they should build on 5th B) ...

I think we should wait and be patient until a full size store wants to come, IMO a small 1/4 store is not a destination.

[atlrvr]

This building would definetly be one of their smaller stores, but it has such potential to be one of their nicest stores.

I'm imagining lots of chandaliers, wood/glass display cases, velvet upholstered chairs in the fitting rooms, etc......

I would love for it to have the feel of the glory days of the department store, where you put on your best clothes to go shopping......of course, customer service would have to match the ambiance.

[StevenRocks]

a key factor in mall success is having enough critical mass of stores; malls with the most stores usually shut out smaller malls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The shopping area with the best selection of stores usually wins. the again, if there's enoguh complimentary retail put in around the new Saks then it stands a chance of survival, assuming of course Saks survives and they can lure any stores in with it.

Out of curiosity, what killed Belk and Ivey's uptown?  Were they just run-down?  Were the in-line tenants uptown not as good as the ones at SouthPark?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Belk and Ivey's lost a lot of sales volume downtown when Charlotte suburbanized and they opened large branches with free parking and complimentary retail in SouthPark, Eastland and Eastridge malls. The change was inevitable.

[csedwards72]

Belk and Ivey's lost a lot of sales volume downtown when Charlotte suburbanized and they opened large branches with free parking and complimentary retail in SouthPark, Eastland and Eastridge malls.  The change was inevitable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That makes complete sense- but how did Belk's stick around until 1986 (?) and Ivey's/Dillard's until 1990 or 1991? Those stores closed a long time after SouthPark/Eastland opened and those dates don't coincide with mall openings. In Greenville and Columbia, downtown department stores closed at the same time as or shortly after regional malls opened.

Did uptown Charlotte have mall-type national chains surrounding Belk and Ivey's? I remember there was a Limited next to Ivey's, but that's all I remember.

[monsoon]

Belk and Ivey's lost a lot of sales volume downtown when Charlotte suburbanized and they opened large branches with free parking and complimentary retail in SouthPark, Eastland and Eastridge malls.  The change was inevitable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Proves what I said earlier.

[StevenRocks]

That makes complete sense- but how did Belk's stick around until 1986 (?) and Ivey's/Dillard's until 1990 or 1991?  Those stores closed a long time after SouthPark/Eastland opened and those dates don't coincide with mall openings.  In Greenville and Columbia, downtown department stores closed at the same time as or shortly after regional malls opened.

Did uptown Charlotte have mall-type national chains surrounding Belk and Ivey's?  I remember there was a Limited next to Ivey's, but that's all I remember.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uptown's Charlotte's department stores were able to sustain a reasonable amount of volume after Eastland and SouthPark opened, just not enough to operate those size stores in those locations. In an ideal world, there would have been enough shopper interest to keep urban and suburban stores open, but Uptown's image was tarnished by being old-school when modern malls were the thing.

In Greenville and Asheville, the markets are smaller than Charlotte so the writing was on the wall earlier.

I'm no expert on what flanked Ivey's and Belk Uptown, but someone here will know.

[monsoon]

I'm no expert on what flanked Ivey's and Belk Uptown, but someone here will know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I took these photos before Belks was destroyed. This will give you an idea of what it was like.

Belks was an L shaped building that had entrances on both Tryon and Trade. The BofA tower sits on this corner now. Here is the Tryon View

And two views of the Trade Street side. The large grey building was an Eckerds Drugs which had already closed for the upcoming demolition. The skybridge in the second photo crossing Trade is still there today except it goes to Founders Hall now. On the other side of Belks was a Burger King.

Note the sky bridge coming out of Belks and crossing Tryon. It connected to the second floor of Ivey's on the other side. The bridge is gone now, and I don't have any photos of Ivey's from then, but I don't think there has been significant change. The building next to Belks was a Woolworth's. It was one of the only surviving Art Deco buildings in downtown by that point. It is just a memory now as the Bluementhal theatre sits there.

These photos were taken on a Saturday afternoon. Look how dead DT Charlotte used to be on the weekends.