Haydon Burns RFP Thread

[bobliocatt]

Btw, Jacksonvillian.....Any idea why Atkins hasn't come out in the press with a story shedding more light about their project and what it can do for downtown?

[jacksonvillian]

The library was built in 1965... and yes, a lawsuit would be a possibility.

[RiversideGator]

It's just the internet.

I do think a lot of people take themselves to seriously on these sites and can get overly offended. I think the beauty of this board is we can say what we want in relative anonimity. Having said that, I wonder if ole Captain doesnt have a dog in this fight. How do we know he isnt in one of the competing groups??

Seriously though, I dont see the preservation argument. Not only is it only about the age of the Mayor, but not many people in town that I know like it. It really is an eyesore at a critical intersection. Why should we be stuck with this mediocre building in perpetuity?? We have lost many beautiful structures to the wrecking ball. This is not one of them. Let's move on and do what's best for downtown - sell the building to Atkins.

[bobliocatt]

I still haven't seen a strong argument for preserving the building at all costs. Anyway, being the good man that I am, if any Preservationist or Peterbrooke lovers (ex. Suzanne Jenkins) are out there, let me suggest some alternative historical significant buildings, in need of a chocolate plant, that may be actually be a better fit for Peterbrooke's ambitious expansion plans and the city's urban revitalization plans.

(In no particular order or ranking system)

1. Doro Fixtures Industrial Building

Located across the street from the new arena and ball park, this 40,000sf building takes up a full block and is conveniently located within walking distance of Kids Campus, the future riverwalk, Metropolitan Park and the Catherine Street Fire Station Museum.

Extra perks: Peterbrooke could make some extra money selling chocolate on concerts and game days.

2. Exchange Building - 218 Adams Street

This 7 story building is a little smaller with 35,000 sf, but its still 3 times bigger than Peterbrooke's existing facilities in San Marco. The building is available, centrally located, near Hemming Plaza and a skyway station.

3. First Baptist Church Office Building - 218 Church

At 26,000 sf, this is the smallest building on the list, but this Klutho building is most architecturally and historically significant. Its also a short walk from Hemming Plaza and JMOMA.

Extra Perks: With the backing of chocolate lovers in Jacksonville, Peterbrooke could easily get incentive money to save this crumbling and neglected structure.

4. Claude Nolan Cadillac - 937 Main Street

If restored to its original condition, this 46,000 sf Klutho masterpiece could anchor a revitalized Confederate/Klutho Park and help merge the revitalization of Springfield with Downtown.

Extra Perks: Would provide a swift kick in the backside of slow moving city leaders to address the Hogans Creek pollution problem.

Old Stanton High School - Ashley Street

Now this 60,000 sf building kicks the Haydon Burns azz in the historical department. After all, its the first black high school in Florida.

Extra Perks: Would bring some needed diversity in development to LaVilla. Would also be closer to the Ritz LaVilla Musuem and the Sally Corporation's factory tour. They could offer Park Hopper passes to see all the spots on children's school field trips.

Jacksonville Jewish Center - 205 3rd Street

I don't know if Springfield residents like smelling chocolate, but it beats having a homeless shelter take over 71,000 sf of raw space. Like the Claude Nolan Building, it could help merge the gap between downtown and Springfield and encourage the city to clean up Klutho Park, which is right across the street. With the Waterworks Museum and Karpeles Sprinkles Childrens Musuem, you now got a decent urban cultural corridor.

Well there's a couple of alternatives.......so what's the pros and cons?

[Captain Obvious]

I do think a lot of people take themselves to seriously on these sites and can get overly offended.  I think the beauty of this board is we can say what we want in relative anonimity.  Having said that, I wonder if ole Captain doesnt have a dog in this fight.  How do we know he isnt in one of the competing groups?? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We'll, just for disclosure's sake then ... I have a family member involved with the Historical Society - which is why I've felt the need to remind people what the Historical Society actually has and hasn't done. I also know people at Vestcor. Other than that ... I have no dog in this fight.

I don't know a single person involved in either the Atkins or Peterbrooke proposals.

But also, another intersting tid-bit. Tonight, the Preservation Committee denied the request to landmark the library (as I mentioned in a previous post - I highly doubted it would work). So most of you should be happy. But here's the thing ... they denied the request exclusively because they "lacked authority" to review buildings under 50 years old, even though they have previously reviewed buildings under 50 years old, and thus undeniably have authority to do it. So quite frankly, while you all should be happy with the results ... the means were obviously political. Rather than deny the claim on its merits, the Committee rejected it on a technicality that was a bald-faced lie. This event was absolutely bizarre, because the Committee had full authority to reject the library's case if they wanted. Yet they used a bogus reason to avoid even having to hear the case.

So yes, be happy for Atkins. But remember, that while you all complained about underhanded political tactics on the behalf of Peterbrooke ... politics, not merit, were just used tonight to aid Atkins.

So ask yourself, are political influences okay now that they've been used to favor your side? It's an interesting question worth considering. I don't really have an answer. It might have been interesting for the Committee to review the case, but decide that modernist design wasn't worth preserving. But alas, they passed the buck.

[Jaylon]

I wish I understood what was/is so important about this library. When my family and I first came down to look at apartments and I came to 11 E, the first thing we said was "what is that ugly building next door". It creeped my sister out. It continues to creep me out.

I drive by it every single day and I have to look down on it every time I look out of my apt window. It doesn't have a good side. But then again, I'm not from here... so what the hell do I know.

-J

[Viper]

^ Actually, if it is designated an historic landmark, nothing prevents the city from still giving the project to Atkins. However, Atkins would then need explicit permission from the council to get a demolition permit (I think 13 votes). So the likely scenario would be that Atkins would drop out of the negotiations with the city. So, if Atkins dropped out ... well, why wouldn't you give it to the runner up? Wouldn't starting a new RFP display favoritism against the runner up? It's really quite a masterful plan, if it works. However, I doubt it will. These sorts of things usually fail. Jacksonville has never been a friend to preservation, I doubt it'll start now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point is that by changing the rules you have to restart the game.

Say we vote in the primaries. 6 are running. Only 2 are over 50. A 45 year old wins the primary but a new rule is tossed out there that candidates must be 50 years old or require a super majority to run. Leaving us with just the two lucky candidates isn't fair.

Start over.

Atkins basically being forced out of something they rightfully won because they changed a rule is borderline bad politics to start with but to not restart the process should be criminal.

When I run contests that cover my membership of 13,300 users, I can't make up a new rule just because I don't like who won and if I did, the drawing or selection process would be redone. You can't just run down the line till you find one you like.

[bobliocatt]

Captain, any idea why politics would have played a role in the Preservation Committee's decision?

[RiversideGator]

Hmm. Do the ends justify the means?

[RiversideGator]

When my family and I first came down to look at apartments and I came to 11 E, the first thing we said was "what is that ugly building next door". It creeped my sister out. It continues to creep me out.

Jaylon: My opinion is people tend to operate within herd like groups. It has become trendy among what I have called the open-minded set (predominantly white hip liberals) to support saving this monument to their favorite decade, the 1960s. If you think about it, it makes sense. I have always thought the building was cheap modernist. Squat, bad materials, bad design. I am glad you confirmed that out of towners think it is weird too. Dont worry, plenty of locals hate it too.

Lake: Those are some great, well thought out proposals for an alternate site for chocolate. Hopefully the Peterbooke people will drop the sore loser routine and choose one of them.

[Captain Obvious]

Captain, any idea why politics would have played a role in the Preservation Committee's decision?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They did, by default. The Committee refused to hear the case on its merits and decide whether the library was an historic landmark or not - thus their motivations were political. They could have been under orders from Peyton (unlikely), they could have feared public backlash, they could have been affraid of offending architects by actually deciding on the merits of the library (as opposed to refusing to even hear the case), they could have just been passing the buck to avoid having to deal with it anymore. Any of those reasons would be political as opposed to merit-based.

But please notice, I never said the Committee was wrong. I said they were being politcal. And it was you all who said politics were bad and merit was the only way. Well, the Preservation Committee quite clearly didn't decide on merit. So it's interesting. That's all.

[RiversideGator]

Captain: I seem to recall the 50 year rule myself. Maybe they were just following the rules. Are you sure they have reviewed younger buildings? If so, give us examples.

[bobliocatt]

It may very well be political or it could have been that they saw through this attempt to pull the rug from under a two time winning RFP proposal to get Peterbrooke into the building, which they would have gutted the so-called historical Brady Bunch House style insides out anyway. So maybe, they just didn't see the need to waste everyone's time and money and made a quick decision not to get into this back-handed debacle.

[RiversideGator]

the so-called historical Brady Bunch House style insides

[Captain Obvious]

Captain:

[bobliocatt]

But anyway, it's midnight for goodness sake. I'm on break between summer term and fall term. What's everyone else's excuse?    Goodnight!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Watching Sports Center and Baseball Tonight.

[RiversideGator]

<< Night Owl

[Viper]

<<Has network to run. Easier to catch our Japanese developers while they are in their offices.

I still think Atkins won it fair and 'square'.

[jjoshjl]

The brady bunch...

The Brady bunch...

Thats the way we became the brady bunch....

[jjoshjl]

By the way,

Just got an email from Art Shad in response to my views on atkins...

Per his email, He is in favor of Atkins, so there is one ceartainty

cheers

Josh

[JaxNole]

By the way,

Just got an email from Art Shad in response to my views on atkins...

Per his email, He is in favor of Atkins, so there is one ceartainty

cheers

Josh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sweet! Are you allowed to post the e-mail?

Just to throw in my say, although I want to see Atkins make it through, I believe in upholding the decision process more. I wonder if there will be changes for future projects as a result of this last minute wrangling.

[vicupstate]

I still haven't seen a strong argument for preserving the building at all costs.  Anyway, being the good man that I am, if any Preservationist or Peterbrooke lovers (ex. Suzanne Jenkins) are out there, let me suggest some alternative historical significant buildings, in need of a chocolate plant, that may be actually be a better fit for Peterbrooke's ambitious expansion plans and the city's urban revitalization plans.

(In no particular order or ranking system)

1. Doro Fixtures Industrial Building

Located across the street from the new arena and ball park, this 40,000sf building takes up a full block and is conveniently located within walking distance of Kids Campus, the future riverwalk, Metropolitan Park and the Catherine Street Fire Station Museum. 

Extra perks: Peterbrooke could make some extra money selling chocolate on concerts and game days.

2. Exchange Building - 218 Adams Street

This 7 story building is a little smaller with 35,000 sf, but its still 3 times bigger than Peterbrooke's existing facilities in San Marco.  The building is available, centrally located, near Hemming Plaza and a skyway station.

3. First Baptist Church Office Building - 218 Church

At 26,000 sf, this is the smallest building on the list, but this Klutho building is most architecturally and historically significant.  Its also a short walk from Hemming Plaza and JMOMA. 

Extra Perks: With the backing of chocolate lovers in Jacksonville, Peterbrooke could easily get incentive money to save this crumbling and neglected structure.

4. Claude Nolan Cadillac - 937 Main Street

If restored to its original condition, this 46,000 sf Klutho masterpiece could anchor a revitalized Confederate/Klutho Park and help merge the revitalization of Springfield with Downtown.

Extra Perks: Would provide a swift kick in the backside of slow moving city leaders to address the Hogans Creek pollution problem.

Old Stanton High School -  Ashley Street

Now this 60,000 sf building kicks the Haydon Burns azz in the historical department.  After all, its the first black high school in Florida. 

Extra Perks: Would bring some needed diversity in development to LaVilla.  Would also be closer to the Ritz LaVilla Musuem and the Sally Corporation's factory tour.  They could offer Park Hopper passes to see all the spots on children's school field trips.

Jacksonville Jewish Center - 205 3rd Street

I don't know if Springfield residents like smelling chocolate, but it beats having a homeless shelter take over 71,000 sf of raw space.  Like the Claude Nolan Building, it could help merge the gap between  downtown and Springfield and encourage the city to clean up Klutho Park, which is right across the street.  With the Waterworks Museum and Karpeles Sprinkles Childrens Musuem, you now got a decent urban cultural corridor.

Well there's a couple of alternatives.......so what's the pros and cons?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BRAVO Lake!! You really outdid yourself on this one. All of those are great choices. I really do hope Peterbrooke will consider them. My guess is that Peterbrooke can't get those buildings at 1/3 of there appraised value, so they didn't pursue them.

As for the Historical Commission, there is probably a list of reasons upon which an exception to the 50 year rule can be made. My guess would be that one exception would be an historic event occurred at the building in question. If a President visited and gave a speech, for example. There ought to be some document that would list and explain when an exception to the 50 year rule applies. If the Burns Library did not fit under one of those exception criteria, then the Commission played by the rules and was fair.

[jjoshjl]

JaxNole:

wasnt much too the email, jsut that he completely agreed that Atkins is important for Jax DT, Just a one liner email, Point is, we can safly say we have atleast 1 council in our favor...

[JaxNole]

Uh oh, guys. This was a posted bulletin on myspace.com, if any of you are on there. Any suggestions on what I should post?

-----

Hello.

Most people around this area know that the downtown library has been "given" to developers who will destroy the old library building and replace it with condominums.

The original structure, designed by local boy (now 80 years old) Taylor Hardwick, still has a chance.

I went to the Historic Preservation Council meeting last night because city council woman Susan Jenkins has proposed to make the building a historic landmark. If this happens, it will be very difficult to change the existing building. I am all for transforming the function of the building into something retail/market-like or into the proposed Peterbrooke Chocolate Factory. I just don't want is torn down.

The Historic Council does support designating the building as a landmark, and even sent a letter of recomendation to the mayor in May.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM:

The first requirement to designate a landmark is that the structure must be at least fifty years old. The library was built in 1965. According to the Historic Council, the ONLY way for them to have legal jurisdiction is if there is a bill introduced to the city council creating an exemption to the ordinance for the Library. There is a precedent in the Murray Hill Theatre, which was designated as a landmark before it turned fify.

So, if you care about this, please follow up on at least one of the following options.

1-write Susan Jenkins in support of the library. Feel free to put in any personal anecdotes about the building's importance to your life here in Jacksonville. Remember, if this building goes, downtown will lose a major architectural icon...and just end up being replaced by something with far less character.

2-write your district council person. It doesn't matter if it's a duplicate of the one you send to Susan. The more districts that show support, the stronger the argument will be. The library, and Susan Jenkins are in Dist. 4. I'm in Arlington, but you Riverside/Murray Hill folks are in Dist. 9 or Dist. 14

3-If you're really motivated, write the newspaper or any local politcos you may know.

4-If we can get Susan to present this at the next city council meeting, try to show up in support. The meeting is on August 9th, so try to move quickly with your letters/emails.

5-IF the City Council allows an exemption, the Historic Council will listen to arguments for and against preserving the building. Last night, Taylor Hardwick was going to speak, but the Council closed discussion on the issue when their lawyers said that they had no legal jurisdiction over the building.

I hope this isn't too much information, but there is more...

To find out your city council representative, district, and contact information, go to www.coj.net and click on the city council link in the upper left hand corner.

For a little info about the library, go to www.taylorhardwick.com

I'm sure he wouldn't mind knowing that you support his design.

Finally, if you are one of those bigtime myspacers with too many friends, please repost this so that the message gets around.

I hope this information is helpful.

Thank you for reading.

Travis Orr

[RiversideGator]

The too little, too late gang strikes again.

By the way, these lefties should be happy that the Feds saved and renovated the horribly ugly Federal Building on Bay Street (another Lyndon Johnson era structure). Doesnt this count as "an icon" from the 1960s for downtown? And what about the attractive Riverplace Tower on the Southbank which is also not in danger? Must we save every 1960s building now? This is idiotic.