Fayetteville, Arkansas

[cowbreath]

There's nothing luxury about Lindsay's apts except that they're located on crappy golf courses. They're little boxes with cheap contents. There are nice apartments in NWA and LR but those aren't them.

Which is why Lindsay is increasing filling these apartments with immigrant families of 10.

Yeah I agree, I think it is sad. I've subtlely hinted at my feelings about Lindsey apartments for a while now on here hoping to see if other people agree. They are the only choice basically if you want an affordable apartment. Even without the golf course it is around the same price basically at other locations. Living in Raleigh, NC, at least the apartments were low priced and were luxury (at least more than Lindsey). The market wasn't too great there at the time, but here it seems like Lindsey takes advantage of his niche and doesn't diversify. Some people need 3 bedrooms and regular kitchen sizes and that is not offered. Nothing else around here is very good. It's nice also to progress to better apartments like ones with garages or townhouses. Anyways, I'll bet that this area has room for competitors who can provide affordable living. When you don't change floorplans I bet that increases the profitability quite a bit, just ask franchises. It could be said the demographic is not changing either and that is why the model fits most of the people out there looking for apartments, but I just don't feel it is right.

[masons_dad1]

Yeah I agree, I think it is sad. I've subtlely hinted at my feelings about Lindsey apartments for a while now on here hoping to see if other people agree. They are the only choice basically if you want an affordable apartment. Even without the golf course it is around the same price basically at other locations. Living in Raleigh, NC, at least the apartments were low priced and were luxury (at least more than Lindsey). The market wasn't too great there at the time, but here it seems like Lindsey takes advantage of his niche and doesn't diversify. Some people need 3 bedrooms and regular kitchen sizes and that is not offered. Nothing else around here is very good. It's nice also to progress to better apartments like ones with garages or townhouses. Anyways, I'll bet that this area has room for competitors who can provide affordable living. When you don't change floorplans I bet that increases the profitability quite a bit, just ask franchises. It could be said the demographic is not changing either and that is why the model fits most of the people out there looking for apartments, but I just don't feel it is right.

I agree with what you're saying about Lindsey needing to diversify with a greater range of floorplans (3br) and amenities, although The Links do have a full-size kitchen floorplans. Lindsey also needs to improve their "rent-controlled" apartment communities as they are roach-infested and in poor condition and are not a lot cheaper than their normal apartments (roughly $70/month cheaper). This area does have room for competitors for affordable housing, Simpson Property Group built the "rent-controlled" Bentonville Commons and Springdale Ridge but, get this, the rent for a 900 sq.ft. 2BR/1BA at the Commons starts at $565/month! My 900 sq.ft. 2BR/2BA Lindsey apartment only costs $490/month and I don't have to meet strict income guidelines. This is a perfect example of how greed is running rampant in NWA and affordability is leaving the area. Given the growth patterns and the greed already displayed in NWA this place should implode in on itself within a decade. NWA will be nothing more than a cheap imitation of Beverly Hills except out in the middle of nowhere.

[cowbreath]

I agree with what you're saying about Lindsey needing to diversify with a greater range of floorplans (3br) and amenities, although The Links do have a full-size kitchen floorplans. Lindsey also needs to improve their "rent-controlled" apartment communities as they are roach-infested and in poor condition and are not a lot cheaper than their normal apartments (roughly $70/month cheaper). This area does have room for competitors for affordable housing, Simpson Property Group built the "rent-controlled" Bentonville Commons and Springdale Ridge but, get this, the rent for a 900 sq.ft. 2BR/1BA at the Commons starts at $565/month! My 900 sq.ft. 2BR/2BA Lindsey apartment only costs $490/month and I don't have to meet strict income guidelines. This is a perfect example of how greed is running rampant in NWA and affordability is leaving the area. Given the growth patterns and the greed already displayed in NWA this place should implode in on itself within a decade. NWA will be nothing more than a cheap imitation of Beverly Hills except out in the middle of nowhere.

Thanks for agreeing about the need for diversification. I guess in that I'm anti-Walmart. They won't see a need to change their processes/products unless it benefits them or people get tired of it. In the end they have low prices on mostly non-quality products, which you end up spending more money on it when you have to replace it when it wears out. Lindsey has done a good job in providing the affordable housing needed by everyone. I'm just tired of it being the only choice and that he hasn't changed floorplans. From a business perspective I just see it as he is cutting costs to roll out more boxes that are easier to make, and maybe spend the extra on designing better mini-golf courses. I would definitely pay $565 for a better or different place than Lindsey, because it is still cheap and renting a home for 900sf would be $100 more. Probably when I lived in a Lindsey it cost $530/month anyways.

[masons_dad1]

I would definitely pay $565 for a better or different place than Lindsey, because it is still cheap and renting a home for 900sf would be $100 more. Probably when I lived in a Lindsey it cost $530/month anyways.

The only catch to the Bentonville Commons for $565/month is the income guidelines. A family of 3 cannot have a gross income of more than $24,000/year. That breaks down to $6780/year or 28% of the family's gross income. That's not as bad for a family with a $24,000/year income, but what about families with a $20,000/year income, or a $10/hour job? The rent is a third of their income. That's pretty high rent for low-income people to pay. The Bentonville Commons is a very nice apartment community with well-designed floor plans and very private entrances, more like townhomes than apartments.

[hogwash]

I've lived in a couple Lindsey places and visited others in NWA and around the state. Its sickening... They always use the same names for those places as well.

[cowbreath]

The only catch to the Bentonville Commons for $565/month is the income guidelines. A family of 3 cannot have a gross income of more than $24,000/year. That breaks down to $6780/year or 28% of the family's gross income. That's not as bad for a family with a $24,000/year income, but what about families with a $20,000/year income, or a $10/hour job? The rent is a third of their income. That's pretty high rent for low-income people to pay. The Bentonville Commons is a very nice apartment community with well-designed floor plans and very private entrances, more like townhomes than apartments.

That place has income guidelines!!?!?! Man that is expensive! You're right if not many other places have lower rent around here that people are greedy here. I'm sure Northwest Arkansas is labeled as a "hot property" right now which will keep up the land prices, but like anywhere I guess the bubble will burst (if we're lucky).

I just can't imagine why this place has such high prices for housing with such a low average income. A lot of the housing is actually sucky, even here in Fayetteville. Some of the houses I looked at off Wedington and Salem were really so small and yet they fit 3 rooms in there. If you live alone in there you'll probably knock yourself out turning a corner and hitting an appliance and no one will be there to help you up. Ok that is enough of me I'm ranting too much. I'm just shocked in the high prices for lack of quality.

I've lived in a couple Lindsey places and visited others in NWA and around the state. Its sickening... They always use the same names for those places as well.

Alright good to hear your opinion too. I like to know others are in my place as to how I feel about it.

[Thia]

I really hate that all the Lindsey apartments look the same from the outside. Even the Cliffs on south 265 have the same character. All that changes is the exterior color and material. If you drive from West Fork to Rogers it seems like there are dozens of same-looking apartment complexes fronting 540. Sure some have more landscaping than the others but they are boring. I always wonder if visitors to the area think they are

[masons_dad1]

I really hate that all the Lindsey apartments look the same from the outside. Even the Cliffs on south 265 have the same character. All that changes is the exterior color and material. If you drive from West Fork to Rogers it seems like there are dozens of same-looking apartment complexes fronting 540. Sure some have more landscaping than the others but they are boring. I always wonder if visitors to the area think they are

[Mith242]

I've been busy lately and have been spending all my time simply replying to new posts and not really posting any new info. I don't have time to post too much info but there's been a lot of press on Fayetteville and it's urban residential design standards. The city has put it on hold after Jim Lindsey smalled the idea. While he has some points I still think there's something the city can do to influence this. Lindsey claims he's never seen any city do anything like this but I'm pretty sure there are cities that do. Anyway I was curious to see if anyone had any comments about the whole thing. When I have time maybe I can try to post a little more info about the whole thing.

[mcheiss]

I've been busy lately and have been spending all my time simply replying to new posts and not really posting any new info. I don't have time to post too much info but there's been a lot of press on Fayetteville and it's urban residential design standards. The city has put it on hold after Jim Lindsey smalled the idea. While he has some points I still think there's something the city can do to influence this. Lindsey claims he's never seen any city do anything like this but I'm pretty sure there are cities that do. Anyway I was curious to see if anyone had any comments about the whole thing. When I have time maybe I can try to post a little more info about the whole thing.

What a cheap ass. He only cares about making his apartments as cheap as possible.

[mzweig]

I've been busy lately and have been spending all my time simply replying to new posts and not really posting any new info. I don't have time to post too much info but there's been a lot of press on Fayetteville and it's urban residential design standards. The city has put it on hold after Jim Lindsey smalled the idea. While he has some points I still think there's something the city can do to influence this. Lindsey claims he's never seen any city do anything like this but I'm pretty sure there are cities that do. Anyway I was curious to see if anyone had any comments about the whole thing. When I have time maybe I can try to post a little more info about the whole thing.

Of course there are cities with design standards. I was on a design review committee for a town in Massachusetts at one point, though our jurisdiction was only over the downtown area. I have also served on a Historic Commission with design review authority. If we didn't like what you proposed you could not build it! For example, we did not allow any vinyl siding on anything, and would reject windows that we didn't feel were keeping with the period of the house.

[Mith242]

His argument was that putting in all of this would make it much more expensive for developers who would in turn pass the buck along to the consumer. That it would end all affordable housing. I don't know, I've always wondered why some people feel the need to make places so cheap and pocket a lot of the money. But that's just speculation. Lindsey could have a point, but I think I'd like to hear someone others speak out on it also. Not sure if I totally trust Lindsey's judgment. That and surely there's some way to find middle ground. Being able to ensure some sort of aesthetics but not make everything out of price to low and middle income people as well.

[Mith242]

On a totally different note, something I keep forgetting to mention. It seems there are more people against splitting the high school. One of the reasons is the fact that two high schools wouldn't be quite big enough to stay in the 7A classification and would drop down to 6A, at least initially.

[strmchsr77]

On a totally different note, something I keep forgetting to mention. It seems there are more people against splitting the high school. One of the reasons is the fact that two high schools wouldn't be quite big enough to stay in the 7A classification and would drop down to 6A, at least initially.

Yeah, I saw this and I have to disagree. There projected growth numbers over the next few years seems extremely low to me. It was only a few hundred, but with all of the major projects going on all around the city I would have to up the estimates quite a bit. That is if all of these projects do get built and are successful.

[masons_dad1]

His argument was that putting in all of this would make it much more expensive for developers who would in turn pass the buck along to the consumer. That it would end all affordable housing. I don't know, I've always wondered why some people feel the need to make places so cheap and pocket a lot of the money. But that's just speculation. Lindsey could have a point, but I think I'd like to hear someone others speak out on it also. Not sure if I totally trust Lindsey's judgment. That and surely there's some way to find middle ground. Being able to ensure some sort of aesthetics but not make everything out of price to low and middle income people as well.

It's true that Lindsey builds the most affordable apartment communities in NWA, but it's by no means "low-income housing". Lindsey uses the term "moderate-income housing" in order to build cheap, yet very profitable housing that lower middle class families can afford, but not within the range of low-income families. Approximately 60% of Lindsey's apartment communities are "rent-controlled" or "moderate-income housing", meaning a prospective tenant must meet strict income guidelines to be eligible to become a tenant. The comparable difference in rent between Lindsey's "moderate-income housing" and Lindsey's non-"rent-controlled" apartment communities is approximately $70 per month. This also means that Lindsey's "moderate-income housing" will include poor maintenance, cockroach and rodent infestatations, and in some cases hazardous living conditions.

The bottom line is that Lindsey's non-"rent-controlled" apartment communities are decent, affordable housing for middle-income tenants. In other words, or Lindsey's own words, to increase the cost of building Lindsey's apartment communities would "end all affordable housing" in NWA.

[cocothief]

Lindsey has a good point about design standards making it harder to construct affordable housing in Fayetteville.

The city's impact fees, etc already make it harder for lower priced homes to be built in Fayetteville.

As a homeowner, it only helps my property values.

The city seems to want to have its cake and eat it too on this one.

I'm not sure what point Lindsey is trying to make about the standards being illegal.

I don't think we'll be at the point anytime in the near future where housing in Fayetteville is so expensive so as to create some sort of violation of the Fair Housing Act, which I believe he alluded to.

He's a businessman first and foremost.

There's plenty of other parts of NWA where he can continue to crank out his pre-fab formula without protest.

Here's to more DPZ and less Lindsey in the 'ville.

[masons_dad1]

As a homeowner, it only helps my property values.

You actually highlighted the keyword there... "homeowner". NWA already lacks in homeownership compared to the national average, especially in Fayetteville. [edit] Of course the UA has everything to do with Fayetteville's low homeownership. [edit] That's based on the Sperling's latest Census Data. What NWA needs more than more affordable apartment communities is more affordable "homeownership". Developers building homes priced well over the middle-income range of NWA is only making the situation worse and creating a profitable market for cheap apartment builders like Lindsey. Lindsey sees a need and tries to meet that need. They can't be blamed for that, but home builders can be.

Sperlings Census Data for Homeownership

Fayetteville Homeownership: 45.85%

Springdale Homeownership: 73.89%

Rogers Homeownership: 61.24%

Bentonville Homeownership: 63.11%

US Homeownership: 64.07%

Many more apartment communities have been built or are being built in NWA since those Census numbers were last updated. Springdale is the slowest growing city in NWA which accounts for their higher rate of Homeownership.

Edited December 14, 2006 by masons_dad1

[Mith242]

Yeah there's certainly nothing illegal about it. Santa Fe has much stricter building codes and ordinances. They even control how a future building will look, the materials and so on. They've been doing it for quite a while. Although I would also say I think they have gone to that extreme of making the city a place for nothing but the upper class. But anyway back to the point, I'd still like to hear a third party comment on this. I'm just not quite ready to believe everything Lindsey has to say about this because he's directly involved. Of course he doesn't want to have to go to any extra efforts to build anything new.

[masons_dad1]

Yeah there's certainly nothing illegal about it. Santa Fe has much stricter building codes and ordinances. They even control how a future building will look, the materials and so on. They've been doing it for quite a while. Although I would also say I think they have gone to that extreme of making the city a place for nothing but the upper class. But anyway back to the point, I'd still like to hear a third party comment on this. I'm just not quite ready to believe everything Lindsey has to say about this because he's directly involved. Of course he doesn't want to have to go to any extra efforts to build anything new.

Lindsey is meeting a need in NWA which is more than any other developer can say. Why should Lindsey change a successful formula because other developers might feel threatended?

[Mith242]

I don't think this has to do with what other developers feel. I believe all of this started from recomendations from the Dover-Kohl Group at the 2025 City Plan meetings. Now maybe the city didn't follow their exact statements but I don't think Dover-Kohl would have made these recomendations if they weren't feasible. I know at a number of the meetings I went to the concern over affordable housing was also mentioned. I don't see why Dover-Kohl would make these suggestions if they truely would cut out affordable housing when that was one of the things they were addressing. I think this has more to do with the fact of making it harder for Lindsey to build future developments. I just don't think he's an impartial judge on this and we can't go solely off his suggestions about all of this.

[cocothief]

Lindsey is meeting a need in NWA which is more than any other developer can say. Why should Lindsey change a successful formula because other developers might feel threatended?

Lindsey is meeting a need because it makes him money.

He's the Wal-Mart of developers up here.

Cranking out generic apartments in high volume is what he does.

I have observed much of Lindsey's business dealings in NWA.

I am strongly inclined to believe that his complaints are more about his feeling that he may lose a portion of the market he has cornered in NWA with his mass-produced apartments than any geniune concern for those less fortunate.

Bringing up the Fair Housing Act, et al is just a heavy handed attempt to get his way, community design standards be damned.

Its all about the Benjamins with Mr. Lindsey.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

[masons_dad1]

Lindsey is meeting a need because it makes him money.

He's the Wal-Mart of developers up here.

Cranking out generic apartments in high volume is what he does.

I have observed much of Lindsey's business dealings in NWA.

I am strongly inclined to believe that his complaints are more about his feeling that he may lose a portion of the market he has cornered in NWA with his mass-produced apartments than any geniune concern for those less fortunate.

Bringing up the Fair Housing Act, et al is just a heavy handed attempt to get his way, community design standards be damned.

Its all about the Benjamins with Mr. Lindsey.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

Don't get me wrong, I have no respect for Lindsey. Like I said the cheapest difference between Lindsey's "moderate-income housing" and their regular apartments is $70 per month. That's not providing affordable housing to low-income people, that's trimming costs off of existing apartments and the profit is actually higher at Lindsey's "moderate-income" apartments because they don't have to worry about maintenance and security as much. Unfortunately, Lindsey's greed and profiteering has a side-effect of creating more affordable housing in NWA.

[cocothief]

Don't get me wrong, I have no respect for Lindsey. Like I said the cheapest difference between Lindsey's "moderate-income housing" and their regular apartments is $70 per month. That's not providing affordable housing to low-income people, that's trimming costs off of existing apartments and the profit is actually higher at Lindsey's "moderate-income" apartments because they don't have to worry about maintenance and security as much. Unfortunately, Lindsey's greed and profiteering has a side-effect of creating more affordable housing in NWA.

I'd wager that much like Wal-Mart, Lindsey is able to make a go of the cheaper apartments due in part to some economies of scale he achieves through management of his properties.

Lord knows they all have the same floor plans. His maintenance men probably work more efficiently than buttonsewers in a Southeast Asian sweatshop.

He's probably purchasing HVAC units, shower inserts and formica by the truckoad, too.

[strmchsr77]

Don't get me wrong, I have no respect for Lindsey. Like I said the cheapest difference between Lindsey's "moderate-income housing" and their regular apartments is $70 per month. That's not providing affordable housing to low-income people, that's trimming costs off of existing apartments and the profit is actually higher at Lindsey's "moderate-income" apartments because they don't have to worry about maintenance and security as much. Unfortunately, Lindsey's greed and profiteering has a side-effect of creating more affordable housing in NWA.

I don't know guys....if I could find a way to build very average apartments and bring in millions per month, I think I would do the same. I think he is a heck of a businessman. I'm not saying that I would live in them or even that I like them but I could use a few million a month.

[Mith242]

I guess I'm not trying to say I don't trust anything he says at all. Perhaps he does have some points. But I have a hard time believing everything he's said lately and I think it's more to do with his business than his 'concern' over Fayetteville's future like cocothief mentioned. I think the city should look into the situation again but I still think there should be a way for them to move forward with this at some level. Even if it's against Lindsey's wishes.