Proposed Downtown Amphitheater

[Cookin_peacocks]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

I concede that they probably do mean 1500 - 1700 units between the two parcels. Even as ambitious as Flaherty & Collins proposal was, it was only 696 residential units and 100,000 SF of retail.  To get 200 - 250 units in one building is a very large residential building (20 stories or more). Studio Park's new tower is just under 200 units. 

Keep talking dirty to me .. 

 

Anyways, this is very exciting and will hopefully transform the city while. You'd be amazed at how this changes outsiders views on a city that may encourage migration.

[GR_Urbanist]

I just hope they start on something before I'm 60.

This has to be the longest-running series of teasers and rug pulls I think we've ever seen on this forum.

[GRDadof3]

23 minutes ago, GR_Urbanist said:

I just hope they start on something before I'm 60.

This has to be the longest-running series of teasers and rug pulls I think we've ever seen on this forum.

I think that award goes to Lyon Square, the rapids restoration, and Calder Plaza. But it's a close runner up. 

[Cookin_peacocks]

So what's the next step? What's the next hurdle?

[Khorasaurus1]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

I think that award goes to Lyon Square, the rapids restoration, and Calder Plaza. But it's a close runner up. 

I think Lyon Square has to be the winner, because the others all have obvious impediments (the complexity of the rapids project, the limitations on changes to Calder Plaza due to it all being "part of the sculpture", the number of moving pieces along Market, etc). But Lyon Square is just a city-owned road/plaza that could be renovated basically at any time and for 20 years it just...hasn't happened. 

3 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Wishful thinking but I hope when this amphitheater kicks off in a few years (and it will seem like a MASSIVE project right next to the s-curve), I hope that we see simultaneous developments on some of the rest of 201 Market and at Market and Fulton. Have our own version of Water Street in Tampa (which has been fun to see rise over the last few years from previously vacant lots and parking lots). Let's GOOOO!!!!! GR!!!

I'm not totally sure this is wishful thinking. Given the demand for housing, and the fact that they aren't going to want the amphitheater to open in the middle of an active construction zone, I would assume a lot of it will happen simultaneously. It won't be the same scale as Tampa, but it could be several crains in the air at once.  And if it's anything like the concepts from a height perspective, it (along with the Studio Park tower) could effectively double the size of the skyline. 

[GRDadof3]

15 minutes ago, Khorasaurus1 said:

I think Lyon Square has to be the winner, because the others all have obvious impediments (the complexity of the rapids project, the limitations on changes to Calder Plaza due to it all being "part of the sculpture", the number of moving pieces along Market, etc). But Lyon Square is just a city-owned road/plaza that could be renovated basically at any time and for 20 years it just...hasn't happened. 

I'm not totally sure this is wishful thinking. Given the demand for housing, and the fact that they aren't going to want the amphitheater to open in the middle of an active construction zone, I would assume a lot of it will happen simultaneously. It won't be the same scale as Tampa, but it could be several crains in the air at once.  And if it's anything like the concepts from a height perspective, it (along with the Studio Park tower) could effectively double the size of the skyline. 

Grand Action really wants to see the convention center tower hotel built as well. I'm having a hard time thinking of something that Grand Action wanted that didn't happen. 

16 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

So what's the next step? What's the next hurdle?

City services have to be moved off of 201 Market, which I believe they said they were targeting 2023. 

"The CAA could close on the property by June 30. But before that happens, officials say they need to lock up funding, firm up the amphitheater’s design, and finalize other details.

Details presented by Grand Rapids city officials show a variety of funds are being sought to pay for the amphitheater.

Among them: $81 million in donor, state and private investment, as well as $15 million from property on the Market Avenue site the CAA could sell to private developers. The Grand Rapids Downtown Development Authority or the City of Grand Rapids Brownfield Authority would also borrow $20 million to finance the project."

 

I'm optimistic more than ever on this because Grand Action/AHC and several other groups forked out their own money to move the sewer lines, to the tune of over $20 Million I believe. That's a big lift for them to move utilities if they weren't optimistic they would get it done. 

[GRDadof3]

Another step closer.

https://mibiz.com/sections/real-estate-development/convention-arena-authority-approves-24-3m-amphitheater-land-purchase-further-study-on-managing-downtown-venue

"Project construction could start within the next year pending the final sale, he said."

and... interesting 

"The CAA is poised to purchase 11.6 acres of the 16-acre 201 Market property that’s owned by the city of Grand Rapids. The CAA plans to develop about 7 acres for an amphitheater, while the remaining 4 acres will be for parking as part of the estimated $116 million project, MacKeigan said. "

 

I hope the 4 acres of parking is temporary and developed eventually. Or a ramp with liner development. 

 

 

[cstonesparty]

4 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Another step closer.

https://mibiz.com/sections/real-estate-development/convention-arena-authority-approves-24-3m-amphitheater-land-purchase-further-study-on-managing-downtown-venue

"Project construction could start within the next year pending the final sale, he said."

and... interesting 

"The CAA is poised to purchase 11.6 acres of the 16-acre 201 Market property that’s owned by the city of Grand Rapids. The CAA plans to develop about 7 acres for an amphitheater, while the remaining 4 acres will be for parking as part of the estimated $116 million project, MacKeigan said. "

 

I hope the 4 acres of parking is temporary and developed eventually. Or a ramp with liner development. 

 

 

I can't imagine them building the amphitheater without ANY on-site parking.  A liner-wrapped ramp would make tons of sense for that development vision...

[joeDowntown]

Personally, I think the giant whale for GR has always been the post office. Everyone knows it’s outdated, could be moved, and impedes development.. I’ve thought everything from political clout to changing times would fell this beast, but she’s still standing. And flipping the bird at the rest of downtown GR. LOL.

Joe

[WMrapids]

11 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

"The CAA is poised to purchase 11.6 acres of the 16-acre 201 Market property that’s owned by the city of Grand Rapids. The CAA plans to develop about 7 acres for an amphitheater, while the remaining 4 acres will be for parking as part of the estimated $116 million project, MacKeigan said. "

So they are definitely following this plan, but without any buildings or park, just parking.

Not sure how I feel about that to be honest. Not doubting they will build the amphitheater, but I don’t think we will see anything as bold as the Progressive “courtesy rendering” any time soon. I would certainly love to be proven wrong though…

Edited April 2, 2022 by WMrapids

[GRDadof3]

8 hours ago, WMrapids said:

So they are definitely following this plan, but without any buildings or park, just parking.

Not sure how I feel about that to be honest. Not doubting they will build the amphitheater, but I don’t think we will see anything as bold as the Progressive “courtesy rendering” any time soon. I would certainly love to be proven wrong though…

I think something will finally happen with the Market & Fulton site, now that the sewer work is being done. I didn't even know that was something impeding developing that site.

Whether anything gets built on 201 Market right away, along with the amphitheater, remains to be seen. I'm going to guess 1 building or cluster of buildings, and the riverfront park directly adjacent to the amphitheater. 

It'll be 2030 before it's a major new epicenter of the city. Which is kind of what happens in every other city.

[walker]

10 hours ago, WMrapids said:

So they are definitely following this plan, but without any buildings or park, just parking.

Not sure how I feel about that to be honest. Not doubting they will build the amphitheater, but I don’t think we will see anything as bold as the Progressive “courtesy rendering” any time soon. I would certainly love to be proven wrong though…

Looking at this rendering just now, even if they were to do this as drawn I don't think it would be anything but mediocre.  It looks like a soul less big city suburban office park.  The rendering looks nice but all the buildings are islands onto themselves, there is no interaction between them or the rest of downtown.  It's sort of like the usually empty plazas of our 60's downtown urban renewal area, or like Renaissance Center in Detroit separated from the rest of downtown Detroit.

Still, I guess it's several steps up from just a big parking lot.    

[Prankster]

11 hours ago, WMrapids said:

So they are definitely following this plan, but without any buildings or park, just parking.

Not sure how I feel about that to be honest. Not doubting they will build the amphitheater, but I don’t think we will see anything as bold as the Progressive “courtesy rendering” any time soon. I would certainly love to be proven wrong though…

When have we ever seen anything move quickly in this town? For good or bad, the city leaders have always been a deliberate and cautious bunch of folks. 

[Guest]

Well, it will most likely be built in phases.  It would make sense to build the amphitheater and create a surface lot with the remainder of the land, then slowly split it out to developers.  I don't think a surface lot would be permanent.  It would be cool to have hotels and residential looking toward the stage, it will probably be covered and you wouldn't be able to see the artists, but you sit out and listen to some music.

If there is a surface lot, I wonder if they will allow tailgating.  At Tinley Park (outside Chicago) they actually passed an ordinance that tailgating was not allowed and when I was there a few years ago they were strictly enforcing it.

[WMrapids]

3 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Whether anything gets built on 201 Market right away, along with the amphitheater, remains to be seen. I'm going to guess 1 building or cluster of buildings, and the riverfront park directly adjacent to the amphitheater.

How much do you think it would take to make a park there?  You think there would be contamination issues due to the facilities there?

1 hour ago, walker said:

Looking at this rendering just now, even if they were to do this as drawn I don't think it would be anything but mediocre.

I don’t know if I would go as far as saying it will be mediocre. 12,000 seats is a good size for an amphitheater, so they’re at least putting in some effort there.

On 4/1/2022 at 12:39 PM, GRDadof3 said:

"The CAA is poised to purchase 11.6 acres of the 16-acre 201 Market property that’s owned by the city of Grand Rapids. The CAA plans to develop about 7 acres for an amphitheater, while the remaining 4 acres will be for parking as part of the estimated $116 million project, MacKeigan said. "

What is different between what is underway and what was originally proposed is that this amphitheater and parking will take up the majority of the 201 Market area (about 70% of the whole area south of 131).

What I meant about something “bold” is something more than just an amphitheater and some parking for 201 Market, because with what they are pushing, that’s what it looks like it will be, not a new “epicenter”. That’s why it was a better option to have the amphitheater being at the Charley’s Crab location; it would allow for more diverse and interesting development south of the s-curve. This makes me feel like 201 Market will be a one-trick pony amphitheater, only open for a few months, plopped into an area that is dull in its current state.

Sorry for the rant, but I’m really hoping that there is more than the amphitheater and some parking upon groundbreaking. At least a few liner buildings spread out so the amphitheater doesn’t look so out of place. Something that is integrated and natural. But like with everything else before, it’s better to just wait and see. 

[joeDowntown]

Is the goal to make a hotnew epicenter that shifts downtown south? I think it’ll be a good riverfront development that extends downtown and provides access to parks. I guess I never thought this as “the new core”. 

I think you’ll eventually see a lot of development on ancillary lots (dog park, the building and lot next to the Woods, other lots between grandville and Market. 

I think we’ll be happy overall. Hard to gripe too much when they’re just getting started on “real” plans. 

Joe

[Guest]

Also where did the idea that it would be just an amphitheater and parking come from?

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Also where did the idea that it would be just an amphitheater and parking come from?

It was in the Mibiz article. Granted, this is just Rich Mackeigan of CAA speaking. He would not have anything to do with ancilliary development. 

"The CAA is poised to purchase 11.6 acres of the 16-acre 201 Market property that’s owned by the city of Grand Rapids. The CAA plans to develop about 7 acres for an amphitheater, while the remaining 4 acres will be for parking as part of the estimated $116 million project, MacKeigan said. "

 

4 hours ago, WMrapids said:

How much do you think it would take to make a park there?  You think there would be contamination issues due to the facilities there?

 

DGRI is receiving $55 Million to continue developing the "Grand River Greenway" that has been all over the news lately. Would link greenspace along the Grand River all the way through Kent County, including downtown.

[GR_Urbanist]

16 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Well, it will most likely be built in phases.  It would make sense to build the amphitheater and create a surface lot with the remainder of the land, then slowly split it out to developers.  I don't think a surface lot would be permanent.  It would be cool to have hotels and residential looking toward the stage, it will probably be covered and you wouldn't be able to see the artists, but you sit out and listen to some music.

If there is a surface lot, I wonder if they will allow tailgating.  At Tinley Park (outside Chicago) they actually passed an ordinance that tailgating was not allowed and when I was there a few years ago they were strictly enforcing it.

Surface lots remain for a minimum of 20 years. There is no such thing as a temporary parking lot downtown as it cost too much to tear up in any short timeframe.

If they build this that then I have to wonder what was the point.  If after almost 20 years of this property being touted in grandiose plans, the only thing we get is an amphitheatre half-ringed with a darn parking lot, then it will be a massive disappointment as an amphitheatre alone isnt like a convention center or sporting arena that can be used all year and spark the necessary spin-off developments to remake a place like Market st.

Edited April 3, 2022 by GR_Urbanist

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Surface lots remain for a minimum of 20 years. There is no such thing as a temporary parking lot downtown as it cost too much to tear up in any short timeframe.

If they build this that then I have to wonder what was the point.  If after almost 20 years of this property being touted in grandiose plans, the only thing we get is an amphitheatre half-ringed with a darn parking lot, then it will be a massive disappointment as an amphitheatre alone isnt like a convention center or sporting arena that can be used all year and spark the necessary spin-off developments to remake a place like Market st.

Maybe wait until you see the plans before you trash them.  

[GR_Urbanist]

35 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Maybe wait until you see the plans before you trash them.  

Well I did say  "If after almost 20 years of this property being touted in grandiose plans, the only thing we get...".

We all are really just in the speculation phase, and this whole saga has been rife with big plans, fall-throughs, scale-ups and scale-backs, so at this point I'm cautiously optimistic that the big plans come through, but acutely aware that this is Grand Rapids, and we could just end up with a pavilion and a parking lot.

[GRDadof3]

33 minutes ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Well I did say  "If after almost 20 years of this property being touted in grandiose plans, the only thing we get...".

We all are really just in the speculation phase, and this whole saga has been rife with big plans, fall-throughs, scale-ups and scale-backs, so at this point I'm cautiously optimistic that the big plans come through, but acutely aware that this is Grand Rapids, and we could just end up with a pavilion and a parking lot.

With a price tag of $116 Million? I think it will be more than a pavilion and a dirt parking lot. 

Also, I'm not sure what scale ups and scale backs have been going on for 20 years. The proposals to redevelop the property were back in 2016/17 and didn't go through because of the cost of the sewer relocation and moving city services. Those hurdles have now been taken care of.

I've been reading a lot of the comments online regarding this project and I just laugh and shake my head. People are absolutely ludicrous. Trying not to do the same with these negative posts. 

[WMrapids]

25 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I've been reading a lot of the comments online regarding this project and I just laugh and shake my head. People are absolutely ludicrous. Trying not to do the same with these negative posts. 

It’s easy to be bugged by some of the more ridiculous comments (Facebook), but discussing genuine concerns during the speculation phase is important. They’re spending $20 million on a sewer (which is about the same price 201 Market was sold for), so this project should be under the microscope and face any scrutiny it deserves. Like I said, I’m happy to wait and see what happens with this. But it’s kind of the job of a forum to share ideas and opinions on things, whether they are negative or not. When it comes to the funds being diverted to this project, the public shouldn’t get anything less than what they can agree on.

[GRDadof3]

1 minute ago, WMrapids said:

It’s easy to be bugged by some of the more ridiculous comments (Facebook), but discussing genuine concerns during the speculation phase is important. They’re spending $20 million on a sewer (which is about the same price 201 Market was sold for), so this project should be under the microscope and face any scrutiny it deserves. Like I said, I’m happy to wait and see what happens with this. But it’s kind of the job of a forum to share ideas and opinions on things, whether they are negative or not. When it comes to the funds being diverted to this project, the public shouldn’t get anything less than what they can agree on.

Most of that tab for the sewer work was picked up by private funders. Certainly any use of public funds should be held to scrutiny. But as I said, we haven't even seen early renderings yet. Or anything, other than the overall plan for the riverfront which didn't even include an amphitheater(to this scale anyway). 

But yes:

) Where will people park?

) What about affordable housing?

) Why doesn't the city build a homeless camp there?

) Why doesn't the city fix the roads first?

) Downtown has too many things going on. I won't go there anymore.

) Can't imagine how many flies there will be at concerts.

) I liked it better at Millennium Park.

) This amphitheater will wash away during the first flood.

 

All very good questions. 

[GR_Urbanist]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

With a price tag of $116 Million? I think it will be more than a pavilion and a dirt parking lot. 

Also, I'm not sure what scale ups and scale backs have been going on for 20 years. The proposals to redevelop the property were back in 2016/17 and didn't go through because of the cost of the sewer relocation and moving city services. Those hurdles have now been taken care of.

I've been reading a lot of the comments online regarding this project and I just laugh and shake my head. People are absolutely ludicrous. Trying not to do the same with these negative posts. 

I'm referring to as far back as the infamous "mystery project ^tm " as well. 

This plot of land has been an on again/off again topic for a long time. We've had multiple renderings, start and stops, lots of sometimes confusing statements from people involved. I cant even tell if the actual amphitheater is going to be north or south of the S-curve at this point. Will it have a residential/retail component, or will it just be part amphitheater, part surface parking lot. And goodness knows if we get a rendering and go through the process of value engineering and scale-backs like other famous developments in DT have gone through for whatever reason. This is a lot of money into this, but we all are kind of in the dark. And honestly, an amphitheater alone isnt worth 116 million dollars, and arent that big a draw, so I'm hoping that there is FAR MORE to this that really blows us away.

I'm certainly not one of these Facebook types that likely are going on about fictitious concerns like "How many people are going to get displaced by this?" or "Parking is too scarce and they do this!!?!?!" or "Why not spend the money on homeless people?" boilerplate. LOL!

[EDIT: Nevermind. I looked, they are]

I'm just hoping for another Studio Park homerun, but fearful slightly for another Icon on Bond level fumble, where we get super hyped, and then look at it and say "that's it?".

Edited April 3, 2022 by GR_Urbanist