CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[deleted]

I thought this was pretty well-written:

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/132923/why-the-north-carolina-legislature-seems-to-hate-big-city-transit/

 

[kermit]

Nice Agenda article today on why the NCGA hates transit: https://www.charlotteagenda.com/132923/why-the-north-carolina-legislature-seems-to-hate-big-city-transit/

While I think Dunn has framed his perspective appropriately (the legislature is unwilling to fund transit because cities are framing it as economic development rather than transportation), I don't really agree with his conclusions (state funding will return if cities make transit more about moving people and connect it to places where republicans live). I think the RWNJ in Raleigh will balk at any large funding packages for cities. I was also disappointed in Dunn's casual cost analysis of transit, it does cost more per passenger, but that ignores the fact that users pay their own vehicle and fuel costs on roads so its not an apples to apples comparison.

He also mentions a proposal to examine the feasibility of  "commuter rail" from Charlotte to Gaston County which was put into motion by speaker of the house, Tim Moore -- this was news to me. The linked Gaston Gazette story just says this:

Quote

Peoples said the state is currently studying the feasibility of extending commuter rail service to Gastonia and Kings Mountain at the request of N.C. House Speaker Tim Moore. The study is expected to be completed by the end of the year.

I believe the study actually examines the extension of the Piedmont trains into Gaston County (not a new commuter rail service)

[deleted]

21 minutes ago, kermit said:

I believe the study actually examines the extension of the Piedmont trains into Gaston County (not a new commuter rail service)

Thanks for the clarification...big difference!

[Third Strike]

30 minutes ago, JBS said:

I thought this was pretty well-written:

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/132923/why-the-north-carolina-legislature-seems-to-hate-big-city-transit/

 

The Koch brothers are also involved in preventing transit funding from being passed in parts of the country:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html

[Matthew.Brendan]

Gaston/Kings Mountain, Rock Hill, Monroe, Mooresville. These commuter rail lines should all be under construction right now. Not decades away from reality. Oh well. 

[11 HouseBZ]

Salisbury/ K-town/Concord as well

[Dale]

20 hours ago, Third Strike said:

The Koch brothers are also involved in preventing transit funding from being passed in parts of the country:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html

As an aside, the Kock Brothers had very little to do with Nashville crushing transit. And the pro-transit faction was MUCH better funded.

[Cadi40]

Nashville UPers love to act as if they didn’t ruin transit for themselves. 

[jtmonk]

13 minutes ago, Cadi40 said:

Nashville UPers love to act as if they didn’t ruin transit for themselves. 

While it's sad Nashville didn't pass their transit plan, Nashville UPers and many others in Nashville worked really hard to promote the plan.  Unfortunately it was an uphill battle for them with many roadblocks in the way (mayor scandal, Koch Brothers, expensive plan, etc.).  They'll learn from this defeat, come up with a better plan, and get more people on board to pass it next time.  Also, the Nashville UPers don't "love to act as if they didn't ruin transit for themselves".   They are very passionate about their City just like we are very passionate about Charlotte.  Just think if the tables were turned, don't you think we would be upset and be saying many of this same things and making the same excuses?  Show them a little more empathy.

Back to topic.  Lexington is also working very hard on getting their train station ready in the next few years.  There has been a lot of interest in the Depot District, where the station will be located, and the City is promoting the area largely to commuters to Charlotte.  Doubt commuter rail would come this far but people could still use the train service in place now to commute to and from Charlotte.  The City has been working with Shook Kelley for a number of years on the plans, will be nice when/if it comes to fruition.  

[Cadi40]

Apologies, Just some resentment, I’ll show some more sympathy.

[cltbwimob]

On 7/9/2018 at 10:39 AM, kermit said:

Nice Agenda article today on why the NCGA hates transit: https://www.charlotteagenda.com/132923/why-the-north-carolina-legislature-seems-to-hate-big-city-transit/

While I think Dunn has framed his perspective appropriately (the legislature is unwilling to fund transit because cities are framing it as economic development rather than transportation), I don't really agree with his conclusions (state funding will return if cities make transit more about moving people and connect it to places where republicans live). I think the RWNJ in Raleigh will balk at any large funding packages for cities. I was also disappointed in Dunn's casual cost analysis of transit, it does cost more per passenger, but that ignores the fact that users pay their own vehicle and fuel costs on roads so its not an apples to apples comparison.

He also mentions a proposal to examine the feasibility of  "commuter rail" from Charlotte to Gaston County which was put into motion by speaker of the house, Tim Moore -- this was news to me. The linked Gaston Gazette story just says this:

I believe the study actually examines the extension of the Piedmont trains into Gaston County (not a new commuter rail service)

I found two things in the Agenda article to be of particular interest.  

One is the average cost per mile of freeway that the author of the article quoted ($11 mil per mile for a six lane highway).   I find the number to be suspect-perhaps he meant $11 mil per lane-mile which would be $66 mil per mile of six lane highway.  Still taking his $11 mil per mile of six lane highway as given, that number I am sure includes the cost of a lot of highways that run through flat corn fields in the Midwest.  Urban highways are much more expensive.  IIRC, the cost to widen the recently completed section of US74  in east Charlotte was over $100 mil per mile, and roughly in line with the cost per mile of the Lynx BLE.  The difference is the Lynx BLE can, with some minor adjustments such as 4 car trains, stations to handle 4 car trains, trains running at minimum allowable headways, be equipped to handle ~30k passengers per hour, or the rough equivalent of a 14 lane freeway. For Independence to be able to handle the same amount of people, it would need an additional 6 lane expansion and would likely need to be converted to a full-fledged freeway...a multi-billion dollar proposition.

The second was the legislator from Person county referring to the high cost per passenger-mile. I wonder if he's ever considered the fact that various laws and policy instruments at all levels of government have conspired to make it almost impossible for light rail to compete with roads using the cost per passenger-mile basis metric.  Everything from explicit measures to block or eliminate transit funding, to zoning ordinances forcing lower density development, to the mostly "free" freeway system and a never ending road expansion game, create an environment in which roads will undoubtedly be the winner of the cost per passenger-mile metric.  But that is not because car transport is the superior form of transport.  Rather it is indicative  of the fact that governments provide a laundry list of implicit and explicit incentives to use cars and at the same time provide relatively little help to transit.  It's kind of like lining two cars up for a race, and giving one a half-mile head start while attaching the other one to a ship's anchor.  Then when the car attached the anchor naturally loses the race, rather than attributing the win to the fact that one car got a head start while the other had a 30k lb piece of steel attached to it, you instead cite the inferiority of the car with an anchor attached to it.  Even if  the car attached to the anchor is a Formula 1 car, it's not winning that race.  In the same way, light rail can have many advantages over automobile-based transit in urban environments, but if all the policy instruments in place incentivize people to drive cars, then the car is naturally going to be utilized more heavily by the populace and which will consequently drive the cost per passenger-mile lower for highways compared to transit.

All that said, given the current construction costs for LRT projects- a cost surely to rise-I think Charlotte should consider building out the remainder of the transit system using BRT.  By BRT I mean true bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes , signal prioritization, level boarding stations, nice articulated busses and off-vehicle fare collection.  I suggest this for several reasons.  One is obviously the cost, but implementation timeframe would likely be significantly quicker.   And because of the cheaper costs, more lines than what's currently planned could be added to the system (two candidate lines I thought about were a NW line from Uptown to the Riverbend development via Brookshire Blvd and an Albemarle Rd line from 485 that connects to the Silver line in the vicinity of Bojangles Colisseum) Furthermore, while I don't believe in the driverless car transit apocalypse that has been predicted, if it did happen as predicted, the city would not be dropping nearly as much money in a system that will be underutilized but could still provide high quality transit to those who are unable to afford driverless car fares.  I will make it a point here to say that I believe that in cases where natural extensions/branches of the Blue Line can be implemented then it would be best to just tack on extensions and branch lines (i.e. extend the blue line to Ballantyne via Pineville/Carolina Place and to the Concord Airport via Concord Mills and the speedway; add branches from Tyvola station area to Southpark, Arsley TC, and from UNCC to the proposed Amtrak station in Harrisburg assuming it lands near 485).

Secondly, I believe we should really start planning for commuter rail to our outlying communities because they may be willing to provide funding for transit if it is also directly benifitting them and the region needs better infrastructure to connect bedroom communities to the main economic driver.  I suspect a line from Uptown to Gastonia via the P&N and a line to Salisbury via the NCRR would be easiest to implement and could be done in fairly short order.  Lines to Monroe, Rock Hill and eventually Mooresville also need to be part of the conversation as well as long range planning for a line to Stanly County via the ACWR and a line to Lincolnton.  As an aside, I do not believe that driverless cars will ever be able to compete with Commuter Rail in the sense that the typical length of a Commuter Rail trip would likely be financially unfeasible to replicate in a driverless car and driverless cars will probably never be allowed to go close to 80 mph like most commuter trains can.

Finally, I think a 12-15 route web of Sprinter-branded BRT-lite (i.e. like true BRT without the dedicated bus lanes) covering major commuter routes not covered by LRT/BRT would be a welcome addition to a new transit plan.  I would also like to see a set of free circulator bus routes in and around the major employment centers like Baltimore's Charm City Circulator-perhaps call it the Queen City circulator.  I think Ballantyne, Southpark/Park Rd, the CBD, UNCC/U-city, and Airport/River District  would all be prime areas for such a service.

Edited July 12, 2018 by cltbwimob

[kermit]

Be there or be square.

[Nick2]

Perhaps UPers who attend should have somewhat of a unified message for the best option(s)?

[tozmervo]

As part of "Envision my Ride," CATS is proposing to start an 'express' bus line on Beatties Ford. This would follow the same route as the 7N (uptown to northlake mall), but only stop at 15 stops of the 50. It would be the first test case in the system. Assuming the proposal is accepted by MTC, the service would start with the October service change (as well as many other major route changes)

[southslider]

^limited stop like Sprinter. And intended to mitigate discontinuation of the 590.

 

[kermit]

RE Red Line:

Sounds like MARTA is having success negotiating with Norfolk Southern for a 34 mile commuter rail route to Lovejoy (Clayton County). MARTA plans to build seperate tracks for commuter rail within the existing NS row. The article implies that NS has been responsive in the negotiation process along this moderately busy freight line.

https://saportareport.com/commuter-rail-is-martas-choice-for-clayton-county/

[Tennessine]

On 7/10/2018 at 8:51 AM, Cadi40 said:

Nashville UPers love to act as if they didn’t ruin transit for themselves. 

Strange. We don't go after Charlotte UPers on our side of the mountains.

 

Well, only sometimes  Who turned you sour over there? We have had some unpleasant discussions in the past. Just curious

Edited July 16, 2018 by nativetenn

[Cadi40]

3 hours ago, nativetenn said:

Strange. We don't go after Charlotte UPers on our side of the mountains.

 

Well, only sometimes  Who turned you sour over there? We have had some unpleasant discussions in the past. Just curious

Well, Now that I’ve recouped I will say some were supportive and defendant of me. 

[Tennessine]

1 hour ago, Cadi40 said:

Well, Now that I’ve recouped I will say some were supportive and defendant of me. 

I'm sorry you had a bad experience on our forum. I have seen some Nashville UPers at their worst. Some people say some regrettable things toward others, and it's almost guaranteed to happen when it takes a nasty turn to politics. We had a major issue with this last November, but some of our more volatile members have left the forum by choice.

I have to ask, what exactly caused the trouble? 

[Nick2]

Silver line really needs to happen. It should go from the airport (or maybe the river district if it comes to fruition) through uptown underground beneath stonewall and then out to Mathews. Those millions of people at the airport could be venturing into the city for their 4 hr layover and spending their money at Charlotte businesses. And of course having the blue line connected to the airport through rail is something I think is very important. The red line would be awesome but ridership likelihood is much much lower.

[CTiger]

What are the current ideas for how a light rail station will connect with the airport?  I haven't seen any plans that give an idea of where the station would be, and how passengers will get from the light rail stop to the terminal.  I am worried that if the station is all the way out on Wilkinson somewhere and the trip from the station to the terminal is a pain in the neck, that this will end up being a pretty underwhelming project.

[Dale]

9 minutes ago, CTiger said:

What are the current ideas for how a light rail station will connect with the airport?  I haven't seen any plans that give an idea of where the station would be, and how passengers will get from the light rail stop to the terminal.  I am worried that if the station is all the way out on Wilkinson somewhere and the trip from the station to the terminal is a pain in the neck, that this will end up being a pretty underwhelming project.

I believe it's the case that most US cities that have an 'airport rail rink' require a transfer, like NYC, with few being 'one-seat rides', like Atlanta.

[Desert Power]

8 hours ago, Nick2 said:

Silver line really needs to happen. It should go from the airport (or maybe the river district if it comes to fruition) through uptown underground beneath stonewall and then out to Mathews. Those millions of people at the airport could be venturing into the city for their 4 hr layover and spending their money at Charlotte businesses. And of course having the blue line connected to the airport through rail is something I think is very important. The red line would be awesome but ridership likelihood is much much lower.

It would be a mistake not to run a rail line to the Ballentyne-esque office park they are planning at River District.

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

I believe it's the case that most US cities that have an 'airport rail rink' require a transfer, like NYC, with few being 'one-seat rides', like Atlanta.

Yes, this is the latest I have seen.  Given the airport layout, I'm not sure they would need anything but a stop at the main terminal entrance.  Our terminals aren't split into separate buildings like a SFO for instance. 

[Dale]

1 minute ago, Desert Power said:

Yes, this is the latest I have seen.  Given the airport layout, I'm not sure they would need anything but a stop at the main terminal entrance.  Our terminals aren't split into separate buildings like a SFO for instance. 

Barring a central terminal station, a frequent shuttle to an off-site station, direct to downtown from there, wouldn't be such a hassle.

Vancouver's Sky Train is one seat, from airport to downtown, is a dream, but costs about $9-billion to build.