RFP - 201 Market

[Khorasaurus1]

I think the best way to look at this is that the parks/pathways/amphitheater are going to be developed first, and, while they will be phased and built out over several years, they should progress relatively smoothly. Then, the spots where they show buildings will be development sites, dependent on the market for their timing, form, and use.

I am a little confused by the idea of a pedestrian bridge over 131 in the Charlie's Crab area. 131 is already elevated through there, so a pathway to get over that is going to need a long ramp on both sides to meet ADA. Or some sort of helix, but they don't show that. Just seems like that could be an eyesore right on the river. Also, there's going to need to be an underpass pathway anyway to connect to the pedestrian bridge across the river under the 131 bridge. 

Now, a pedestrian bridge over 131 to connect Rapid Central Station/Founders to Heartside Park and/or one to connect Ehlers Station to Downtown Market would make a lot of sense and enhance this riverfront project in addition to those sites. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Khorasaurus1

[GR8scott]

Reminders of the mystery project for sure, interesting the Grand Action website looks like its straight out of 1998

[RegalTDP]

Thought the proposed sites for the soccer stadium were interesting.   Big fan of the Padnos site (as we've discussed here before).  Hadn't thought of Wealthy/Grandville area... Putting a stadium there makes sense to me, but I hope they don't tear down the Century Antiques warehouse for it.  I don't like the northern site by YMCA... Feel that land is better utilized for other development.

The one I really don't get is the  Butterworth Street site, that seems to be on top of the Goei Center.   That block isn't very wide, and I don't think you'd be able to fit a stadium any bigger than Houseman there.

12 hours ago, Khorasaurus1 said:

I am a little confused by the idea of a pedestrian bridge over 131 in the Charlie's Crab area. 131 is already elevated through there, so a pathway to get over that is going to need a long ramp on both sides to meet ADA. Or some sort of helix, but they don't show that. Just seems like that could be an eyesore right on the river. Also, there's going to need to be an underpass pathway anyway to connect to the pedestrian bridge across the river under the 131 bridge. 

This is only my interpretation, but the bridge seems to be an extension of the "Green Ribbon," which is modeled on NYC's High Line.  If they do it right, it'll be an elevated green space and visually appealing for people to cross.   I would think elevators at the base would still be warranted for ADA purposes, because it'd be quite a slope.

Edited February 26, 2021 by RegalTDP

[joeDowntown]

11 hours ago, RegalTDP said:

Thought the proposed sites for the soccer stadium were interesting.   Big fan of the Padnos site (as we've discussed here before).  Hadn't thought of Wealthy/Grandville area... Putting a stadium there makes sense to me, but I hope they don't tear down the Century Antiques warehouse for it.  I don't like the northern site by YMCA... Feel that land is better utilized for other development.

The one I really don't get is the  Butterworth Street site, that seems to be on top of the Goei Center.   That block isn't very wide, and I don't think you'd be able to fit a stadium any bigger than Houseman there.

This is only my interpretation, but the bridge seems to be an extension of the "Green Ribbon," which is modeled on NYC's High Line.  If they do it right, it'll be an elevated green space and visually appealing for people to cross.   I would think elevators at the base would still be warranted for ADA purposes, because it'd be quite a slope.

Also, if you look at the site plan, the pedestrian bridge on the ribbon starts at the back of the amphitheater. So I'd imagine the elevation would be at its highest point. So handicap accessibility, height, etc. might already be solved by the amphitheater.

[HomePortSupplyCo]

Could this warehouse be integrated into a broader riverfront park as a covered park structure?  Strip all the walls and leave the support beams and roof.  Add artificial turf with some small undulating hills and walkways, small playground, etc.  Would be a draw in rain/snow/heat.  Seems like it could be a very unique repurpose of an existing structure.  A quick/limited search didn't pop up anything like it.  Maybe because it wouldn't be possible due to structural reasons in high winds?

or a covered piazza with "outdoor" cafe's/restaurants on the fringes?  Cut an oculus or two in the center for extra sunlight and airflow?

[Raildude's dad]

That "warehouse" is a heated  vehicle storage building.  There are some offices in the NW corner IIRC. The floor(s) had many issues, slabs sunk and tipped. It has been many moons since I was in there.  It's two buildings based on the roof and my recollection. . The smaller building to the NW houses the garbage trucks.

Back then it was called "The City Island". I don't know if it's still referred to that way. The story from the Streets and Sanitation manager  was there was an island there and the city filled the channel on the east side of the island and then built the first building. . The settlement in the building was from the fill settling.

Just a segway. The person that got the job was Greg Sundstrom who eventually became City Manager. He and I ended up working together a couple years later, he at the City and me at the County The two of us were working on fund raising for a non-profit and his boss (the guy that interviewed both of us)  told us we were doing too good of a job, we needed to slow down.  LOL BTW - I don't regret not getting that job or the other job at the city I interviewed for some years later.

[civitas]

1894 Map shows a steamboat basin that effectively created an "island".  There's a history of the Barrett boat building company somewhere (GRPL?).  The railroads put the steamboats out of business.  Ironically, the RR was required to install a swing section to their new bridge over the river (north of Wealthy) to allow steamboats access to downtown.  

[joeDowntown]

The history of the bridge is pretty interesting (and sounds like a fairly unique bridge). 4 years after building the swing bridge, the river was considered not navigable.

https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/?bridgebrowser=truss/grswing/

[walker]

Downstream, the old railroad - now pedestrian bridge at Millenium Park, is also a swing bridge.  If you inspect closely, you can still see that much of the turning mechanism is still there:

hopewell indian mounds bridge

Edited March 9, 2021 by walker
typo

[GRDadof3]

11 minutes ago, walker said:

Downstream, the old railroad - now pedestrian bridge at Millenium Park, is also a swing bridge.  If you inspect closely, you can still see that much of the turning mechanism is still there:

hopewell indian mounds bridge

Wow, I've been over that bridge many times and never realized it was a swing bridge. 

[GR8scott]

Makes me wonder what happened to make it unnavigable? Also why there is such an uproar on restoring that to increase access to the river? This development would be a great spot to incorporate watercraft in the downtown area, docks, slips, a ferry or the like would be awesome. 

[HomePortSupplyCo]

Another view of the property with islands depicted in 1868 with a riverboat shown tied up just north of Wealthy on the east side and another steamboat almost to the Blue Bridge on the west bank.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/736957466/grand-rapids-1868-aerial-view-map-on?ref=shop_home_active_38&frs=1

[JimiThing]

A temporary dog park just opened in front of the new building on Market (where the Planet Fitness is planned). Looked pretty busy driving by around 6pm today. Not expecting this to be around for a grand opening of a major amphitheater  across the street, but I couldn't help but chuckle (and then squirm) at the thought of a bunch of drunk/etc concert-goers converging on a puppy park before a Phish concert.

Interested to see how this plays out though. A dog park may be a good way to really build a sense of community that has been somewhat lacking for downtown area residents. There are few easier ways to meet strangers that you wouldn't otherwise talk to. Has anyone here been down there yet?

[GR_Urbanist]

It's been around for a little while. It really was a necessity for DT residents. Honestly, there needs to be at least 3 more, as this one is located too far away for a lot of people living there. I also hope this one  can be developed into something more built-out so it can more attractive for people to just generally hangout at it.

[Raildude's dad]

15 hours ago, GR8scott said:

Makes me wonder what happened to make it unnavigable? Also why there is such an uproar on restoring that to increase access to the river? This development would be a great spot to incorporate watercraft in the downtown area, docks, slips, a ferry or the like would be awesome. 

In the summertime, low water the river is shallow.  A lot shallower than you would think.  There was a channel between 2 rows of timber piles in places. Supposedly you can still see part of them although I haven't personally. Hibma and Meekhof's 's proposal was to dredge the river from the Bass River Recreation Area to GR. The Corps have a navigation channel from the Rec Area to Spring Lake.  No one has mined at Bass River since the 50-60's? The sand was barged down to Grand Haven by Construction Aggregates IIRC.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Raildude's dad

[joeDowntown]

12 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

It's been around for a little while. It really was a necessity for DT residents. Honestly, there needs to be at least 3 more, as this one is located too far away for a lot of people living there. I also hope this one  can be developed into something more built-out so it can more attractive for people to just generally hangout at it.

I would think this is temporary (since maplegrove(?) owns the property and will probably develop it at some point). I’d have to think a dog park will be part of the plan at the Market site. 

I agree on the need for more dog parks.  I’m amazed at the number of dogs in the city. 

Joe

[Khorasaurus1]

22 hours ago, GR8scott said:

Also why there is such an uproar on restoring that to increase access to the river? 

Restoring navigability would involve dredging a huge portion of the river, kicking up mud and pollutants that would end up on the properties surrounding the river. It would also be massively expensive, and serve little benefit, as there are tons of places to boat around the region, and a GR-to-GH trip in a small craft would be hellishly long. 

[RegalTDP]

On 3/10/2021 at 12:53 PM, GR8scott said:

Makes me wonder what happened to make it unnavigable?

Back to the historical question, I don't know the answer, but here are two things that were happening back then:

1) The steamboats of the era shut down because they went out of business, not because they couldn't navigate the river.  They were made obsolete by interurban rail (yeah, we used to have that), which itself was made obsolete about twenty years later when cars and buses took over.  If steamboats were still a viable business after 1910, they could have maintained the infrastructure to keep the river navigable, but they didn't.

2)  Back then river was muddier & stinkier due to pollution & shallower due to the hydroelectric plants.  You can look for historical photos on the web, but there were some moments captured back then of the river going through downtown as just a muddy riverbed, because all the water had been diverted to the plants.  May have had something to do with it, or maybe not; the steamboats might have been far enough downstream from there.

Edited March 13, 2021 by RegalTDP

[Allison Slater]

All of that water would have joined back into the river before reaching the steamboat landings.

[joeDowntown]

In the general area. 173 apartments. I’m surprised  the building doesn’t look big enough (obviously it must be)  

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2021/03/proposed-grand-rapids-apartment-building-approved-for-36m-in-tax-incentives.html

[GR_Urbanist]

Wow! I used to have storage space in that building years ago. Remember it being incredibly creepy. 

I think I can see it having that many units if they totally gutted the interior. Whatever they do, making it into a place to live is going to be a real effort, especially with a busy truck route outside your front door, no access to the river, and an active train track to your IMMEDIATE rear.

[Cookin_peacocks]

2 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

In the general area. 173 apartments. I’m surprised  the building doesn’t look big enough (obviously it must be)  

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2021/03/proposed-grand-rapids-apartment-building-approved-for-36m-in-tax-incentives.html

Great to see, but no ground floor retail? 

[HomePortSupplyCo]

11 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Wow! I used to have storage space in that building years ago. Remember it being incredibly creepy. 

I think I can see it having that many units if they totally gutted the interior. Whatever they do, making it into a place to live is going to be a real effort, especially with a busy truck route outside your front door, no access to the river, and an active train track to your IMMEDIATE rear.

After looking at this site, 475 Market across the street on the river may have been included in the purchase??   Site also has some interior pictures and prelim plans for basement parking.

http://470market.com/

[MJLO]

Boy I sure hope this is a catalyst for futher investment down Godfrey.  So may cool old factories and warehouses that could be repurposed. 

[Khorasaurus1]

17 hours ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

Great to see, but no ground floor retail? 

The retail market is going to be in rough shape for a while. Though creating a few storefronts for some convenience businesses would have made sense.