>> Providence Downtown Area

[AriPVD]

I'm not really sure the argument here. The market decides what is going to happen downtown, not some benevolent dictator mayor or developer. This isn't social engineering, it's economics. If downtown truly is the most central and attractive neighborhood in the city (I'm not arguing either way), then it will also become one of the most expensive. That cannot or should not be avoided. As far as I'm concerned, this whole gentrification argument is absurd...the place barely had a hearbeat a few years ago (and believe me, it's still weak, but improving).

[virgo20]

I'm not really sure the argument here.  The market decides what is going to happen downtown, not some benevolent dictator mayor or developer.  This isn't social engineering, it's economics.  If downtown truly is the most central and attractive neighborhood in the city (I'm not arguing either way), then it will also become one of the most expensive.  That cannot or should not be avoided.  As far as I'm concerned, this whole gentrification argument is absurd...the place barely had a hearbeat a few years ago (and believe me, it's still weak, but improving).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no gentrification argument. We all have a desire for "Downcity" to succeed. This is not N.Y.C. or even Minneapolis for that matter. Downcity is consisted of several blocks guided by 3 main thoroughfares. That's it! Providence is the 2nd largest city in New England and a destination for people from all over the state, S.E. Mass., and nearby Connecticut.( not to mention the Rt. 95 travelers)People don't come here to go grab a coffee at Starbucks.They come here because it's exciting to them.People from Fall River, New Bedford, and Brockton come here because it's a different environment than where they're from.They come here for the clubs.They come to eat at a nice restaurant. They go to PP mall. It's a destination..My argument has to do with the vibrancy factor. Many people will not come here if you take away some of the reasons that brought them here in the 1st place.If you populate an area with a certain demographic, it will attract businesses and establishments that cater specifically to that demographic.That works in certain areas of the city,but shouldn' t be the focus of Downcity.Downcity should reflect the city as a whole and be a destination for visitors alike.The slow heartbeat that exists now is because of the nightly entertainment .(clubs, venues) We are not redeveloping the Love Canal.This is a small city that can live or die with a few decisions...In Cotuit's vision, he imagines one end being Newbury St.'ish and the other end catering to the locals..( Target?) This would be great if we had the size of Manhattan..We don't...I stand behind my thought that Downcity should be a mix of Downtown Crossing,Landsdowne Street, and Newbury mixed in one...That would continue to attract and draw new people from all over to a vibrant Downcity...And if prospective new residents can't deal with that...Tell'em to move to Barrington!!!!!!!

[Cotuit]

Social engineering or not, we will see a mixed income group living Downcity simply through all the RISD and J&W students living there. Businesses will migrate Downcity to cater to these less-afluent 20-somethings.

[Garris]

There is no gentrification argument... <SNIP>

[Frankie811]

I've read nothing at all about this so called 1am bar closing time. This would have been big news if it were true and would have been reported in the media. But I will make inquiries. I've been in bars in Albany, NY at 3 - 4am and it's true, people will trickle out over time. Not everyone has the money to sit in a bar and drink all night.

[Recchia]

The 1am closing time is ridiculous. My fear is that the powers that be actually think this will lure more people to want to live downtown, since who they're trying to lure are wealthy empty-nesters, who are not the liveliest bunch I wouldn't say.

[Mij]

The 1am closing time is ridiculous.  My fear is that the powers that be actually think this will lure more people to want to live downtown, since who they're trying to lure are wealthy empty-nesters, who are not the liveliest bunch I wouldn't say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would think the oppisite, Empty nesters looking towards the city would already assume that this is the center of all the action. Even if clubs/bars had to close there are still pizza joints and college area along thayer and weybosette that would provide the same asthetic pleasure the college/club goer seeks. As the old saying goes when there is a will there is way. It would seem logical to have the clubs/bars open later, for the trickle effect.

[Cotuit]

Closing the bars early shifts the problem. People will now be having late night house parties all over the city with police having to respond all across the city, rather than being able to focus their resources Downcity.

[virgo20]

The 1am closing time is ridiculous.  My fear is that the powers that be actually think this will lure more people to want to live downtown, since who they're trying to lure are wealthy empty-nesters, who are not the liveliest bunch I wouldn't say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is exactly the rationale of many political leaders and residents in this city.Close up and create Wayland Square Downtoen...

[virgo20]

So who is in this demographic you fear so much?  More than you wanting true diversity, it feels more like there are people you don't want.  Again, if you're afraid of Mom and Dad Suburb moving in, don't...  They aren't going to be here, and no amount of luxury condos will attract them.  Who is it you don't want?

I again feel the cold breeze of class warfare here, that there's a group we want to keep out.  Again, it feels as if there is desire for a hip, slick, edgy, artistic demographic vs keeping out a perceived staid, professional, preppy demographic.  The world doesn't work in such black and whites.  There's significant overlap between the two groups.  Again, the people I know who've moved into the lofts downtown and in the jewelry district are a pretty amazing, diverse bunch of people already.  Where is the problem? 

That's not quite what he was imagining, but I feel that your vision and his are off by maybe a smidge...  He's seeing everything happen within the downcity area as well, but with perhaps a bit of organization rather than a random collection.  Again, not a huge degree of difference...

I agree 100%...

I can't help by agree with Ari here...  I don't quite get the argument you, Ruchele, et al are making here either...  I get what you want, I just don't understand the how.  What logistically do you want to see differently?  What is happening that shouldn't, and what isn't happening that should?  Who should be doing these things and when? 

I can't help but feel you, myself, and others here are making much the same points, but with different vocabulary. 

Diverse downtown desired: Check

Mix of different retail and entertainment options: Check

Targeted towards locals and visitors: Check

Again, I understand the starting point...  What's your destination, and how do you propose the process work differently to get there?

- Garris

PS: If that rumor regarding the club bans and restrictions are true, it's yet another example of a municipality shooting itself in the foot (lets see if we can do that and repeal the historic tax credits in the same year!)  It may be time to start e-mailing city officials again...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This debate could go on forever, Garris. You ask me what I would like to see different and I'll tell you. As they have in N.Y.C. and New Jersey, I would like to see some of these buildings turned to co-ops as well as new co-op high-rise construction. This would provide homeownership opportunities to a wider segment of the population.(much more affordable than condos) For those of you who don't know the difference, condo owners only own the airspace within their dwelling and a condo association declares what repairs can be done.etc....Anyone can buy a condo with a downpayment and/or good credit. A co-op is different in the fact that they are a lot cheaper and every tenant has a vested share in the buiding. They own all the "commonplaces" together and are subjected to a review process before they will be accepted to live there. They visit the person's primary residence as well. A co-op board can reject somebody if they don't think that they will contribute to their share. They attract people that are vested in their respective communities. They are very common in N.Y. and Boston has 6 co-op units with 1 planned.I would take Pierre von FuVkberger's building by eminent domain(the old Projo),replace the windows to a universal array acrooss the board, and put a supermarket or large bodega that caters to everyone....not Trader Joe's, EastSide Marketplace..but rather something along the lines of Academy Supermarket or C-Town.There's underground parking and it is a great centralized location for Downtown.(convenient to RISD students, City Hall workers, and resdents) This location would spur other economic activity as well in and around the immediate area...I would create some sort of a tax break for people that live or are willing to live or locate a business downtown..( real estate taxes for homeowners and year-end deductible on income taxes for renters) I would provide better signsge to destinations and put kiosks at key central points in the city to lure visitors Downtown.( Federal Hill,Thayer St., Wickenden,etc.)I would eliminate ALL RIPTA routes outside the borders of the main core cities..(Prov., Pawt.,Central Falls, Cranston, Ea. Prov. only)They should take this grant from the government and re-focus their attention on promoting ridership within this area alone..(350K + people)They should increase trips and market extensively to this very dense area with the gas increase scandal.If people choose to live in outlying areas, then they should buy a car and pay the $$ to commute.If they can't afford it, oh well!!!RIPTA is blowing money buy offering trips to Newport, the beaches, Scituate?, and North Kingstown while pissing every hard-working person that truly needs it.If you want to live in a bedroom community, then you should be able to afford it!! It's always some idiot that lives in a sprawling subdivision in West Grenwich or so on the news complaining about his increase in gasoline expenses..Hey Pal!! Nobody told you to knock down 15 acres so you could build your dream house , destroy nature, and contribute to sprawl..You did it to save on real estate taxes and now you're going to have to pay that back 10 times over in gasoline increases to commute to your job in Providence!!!!!!Nobody forced you to buy a gas-guzzling Hummer just so you could really feel like you're "ruffing it." This is a time that Providence and many cities in the Northeast should shine.We need to capitalize on these government grants much like we did with the river relocation money. When I say creating destination, this is what I mean.You can argue with me for many moons, Garris, that the objective is to not try and create an upscale atmosphere.It's the main reason why Traveler's Aid was relocated and why other existing Downcity businesses were not found suitable homes within the core while upper floors are being renovated. ( New Image, Continental) It's also the main reason that many businesses have closed up shop. What commercial tenant is going to pay the exorbitant rent increases in the core when they can pay relatively the same to locate at PP mall with secure parking and plenty of foot traffic?(Hence the closures at Payless, Urban Kitchen, Brewed Awakenings, Kinko's, Honorbilt, etc.)Furthermore, I think that Providence and other N.E. cities should center their revitalization and marketing efforts on transportation, affordable homeownership opportunities, and implementing a "Main Streets" program similar to Boston. With homeownership comes responsibility and people vested in their communities. I'm gay and newly single.I don't want to buy a house in Elmhurst with a white-picket fence.I would love to buy a co-op in Downtown though...If you want to combat sprawl and preserve character which is the mindset of the majority of New Englanders, create initiatives for people to move to the cities.(tax initiatives, better transportation,convenience) With a smorgasbord of available options and a more vibrant area demographically and physically, people will come. People, in an area as small as Prov. or any other N.E. city will not STAY here if the area is created into a homogenized "gentrified" landscape. They want something different! They want an area that is lively, entertaining, and entices people from all over and currwntly Downtown is loding that image...Take the extra $$ and re-invest in transportation. ....P.S. Although i did not include Warwick in the metro, I believe RIPTA should do an express to the airport only!!!

[AriPVD]

you're forgetting something---this stuff costs SO MUCH MONEY. you cant simply ignore economics or expect the government to pick up the tab.

[Recchia]

Virgo, while I agree with you in theory, its simply not realistic. And by the way, not all people living in the suburbs are wealthy and can afford cars. There are plenty of lower income people in North Kingstown (Crossroads RI apartments, trailer parks, old navy housing converted into Section 8) and Warwick, and to deny them a chance at public transportation would be wrong.

I do however, have no sympathy for those living in suburbs and exurbs (who CHOSE for whatever reason--bigger house, bigger yard, better schools, no minorities, whatever they're thinking...) who now have to pay tons of money for gas. They chose it, so they can deal with it. We still need RIPTA to serve many parts of Warwick and the northern Route 1 corridor in North Kingstown (and yes, other "suburban" areas around the state that need it) though. There are plenty of people that rely on it in those areas, and in fact, there are parts of NK that if you were to drive down the street, you would think you were in Providence (take a ride through the Yorktown neighborhood). Who are we to say that they can't be offered public transportation?

[AriPVD]

You can find the Old Providence Journal Building and the Kresge Building listed for sale on loopnet.com:

Old Projo Building

Kresge Building

OldProjo: $8,000,000

Kresge: $6,000,000

[virgo20]

you're forgetting something---this stuff costs SO MUCH MONEY.  you cant simply ignore economics or expect the government to pick up the tab.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you talking about money ? Procciacianti is investing 700 million in downtown without public subsidy? Did you read the JOURNAL TODAY? What government funding do you talk about? I didn't imply that HUD should investigate into expanding the Prov. Housing Authority Downtown?RIPTA just got a multi-million dollar grant from the federal government...So let's see...Let' continue running these cash-sucking bus routes out to the middle of nowhere in Rhode Island so we can lose all our money and accomodate a few people that have DECIDED to move to these areas without enough $$ to buy a car...Let's make public transportation in the core cities the most horrendous experience to gain more ridership.Who cares if they're late for work?What money are you talking about? Homeownership opportunities should be more available and accessible to middle-income residents in the city.I'm not advocating public housing ,but some sort of a cap or creating units that reflect wages and inflation. As far as the economic conditions dictating what development should go where, that is a bunch of sh*t! Providence and the powers that be determine what type of development they want.....not the people! A lot of new development and the re-structuring of the zoning laws will help add a lot of $$ to the tax base thereby benefitting all residents.However, I think with Downcity being the exception(CBD), this should be everyone's business and new development should reflect the population as a whole....After all, we all own Downtown..We pay taxes.This is our city and we all share one common thing...!!!

[AriPVD]

I agree with you on the RIPTA issues, mostly. I think its a terribly inefficient system. But you can't force rents down and create certain kinds of housing for certain kinds of people and expect developers to be able to pull off these projects. No one will even attempt, the margin is so small.

[Recchia]

RIPTA just got a multi-million dollar grant from the federal government...So let's see...Let' continue running these cash-sucking bus routes out to the middle of nowhere in Rhode Island so we can lose all our money and accomodate a few people that have DECIDED to move to these areas without enough $$ to buy a car...Let's make public transportation in the core cities the most horrendous experience to gain more ridership.Who cares if they're late for work?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The RIPTA system as a whole needs to be improved, not just the routes that run through the core cities, although these ones should be focused on first yes. And as far as buses running to the middle of nowhere, where are these buses? Okay maybe the one to Pascoag, but the rest of the fixed-route lines all go to populated areas.

Not to defend suburbs at all, cause I hate them, but there are many "suburbs" in RI that are quite dense and compatible with public transportation and not really suburban in nature. Providence, Pawtucket and CF are not the only built up areas in RI. There are dense neighborhoods in Warwick, West Warwick, North Kingstown, Woonsocket, Cumberland, Lincoln, etc. and lets not forget Newport, which is a very urban place and more than just touristy Thames Street, take a ride up Broadway and you won't know the difference between it and Providence.

Not to mention the URI 66 bus, which is packed all day everyday with students and employees making their way to work/school. Should we eliminate that too?

[virgo20]

The RIPTA system as a whole needs to be improved, not just the routes that run through the core cities, although these ones should be focused on first yes.  And as far as buses running to the middle of nowhere, where are these buses?  Okay maybe the one to Pascoag, but the rest of the fixed-route lines all go to populated areas.

Not to defend suburbs at all, cause I hate them, but there are many "suburbs" in RI that are quite dense and compatible with public transportation and not really suburban in nature.  Providence, Pawtucket and CF are not the only built up areas in RI.  There are dense neighborhoods in Warwick, West Warwick, North Kingstown, Woonsocket, Cumberland, Lincoln, etc.  and lets not forget Newport, which is a very urban place and more than just touristy Thames Street, take a ride up Broadway and you won't know the difference between it and Providence. 

Not to mention the URI 66 bus, which is packed all day everyday with students and employees making their way to work/school.  Should we eliminate that too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes! Colleges and universities should sponsor their own transportation hubs! As far as woonsocket and Newport are concerned, I think private transportation entities would take over where Ripta leaves off....There are over a half dozen independent van lines in Providence now that have trips to Boston, N.Y.C., New Bedford, Fall River,almost every other hour..and they offer door-to-door! An express bus from the airport would do just fine as well. ..And BTW, how many people actually use public transportation in Warwick? The bus terminals sure aren't full on Post Road. I would like to see the federal grant money put towards these cuts as well as building one rail line that goes from East Greenwich to the So. Attleboro T all along 95 and as an alternative with stops in between. The state is too small and dense to build these all within our nneighborhoods.

[Recchia]

Yes! Colleges and universities should sponsor their own transportation hubs! As far as woonsocket and Newport are concerned, I think private transportation entities would take over where Ripta leaves off....There are over a half dozen independent van lines in Providence now that have trips to Boston, N.Y.C., New Bedford, Fall River,almost every other hour..and they offer door-to-door! An express bus from the airport would do just fine as well. ..And BTW, how many people actually use public transportation in Warwick? The bus terminals sure aren't full on Post Road. I would like to see the federal grant money put towards these cuts as well as building one rail line that goes from East Greenwich to the So. Attleboro T all along 95 and as an alternative with stops in between. The state is too small and dense to build these all within our nneighborhoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you ever ridden the #1, #3 or #20 bus? They all go to Warwick and always seem pretty packed. How about a #12 or 14 rush hour bus? And if ridership=money for RIPTA, then why cancel a bus like the 66 that has EXCELLENT ridership?

They are building and planning commuter rail. Wickford Junction and TF Green are Phase I stops, and then Cranston, Pawtucket, East Greenwich and Kingston are Phase II. Buses should still run at least to northern North Kingstown though, since buses serve a different demographic than commuter rail, which is more expensive and unaffordable for some.

Private entities taking over for Woonsocket and Newport? That would be impossible, no mass transit system nowadays is self sufficient financially. The point is that alternatives need to exist for those who can't afford/do not want cars. Plenty of people in Newport and Woonsocket rely on RIPTA for their daily transportation needs. Have you ever been to these areas? They're not leafy suburbs. Woonsocket is very diverse and urban, and Newport, if you go beyond the mansions and the tourist BS, is very much a diverse city.

[virgo20]

Have you ever ridden the #1, #3 or #20 bus?  They all go to Warwick and always seem pretty packed.  How about a #12 or 14 rush hour bus?  And if ridership=money for RIPTA, then why cancel a bus like the 66 that has EXCELLENT ridership?

They are building and planning commuter rail.  Wickford Junction and TF Green are Phase I stops, and then Cranston, Pawtucket, East Greenwich and Kingston are Phase II.  Buses should still run at least to northern North Kingstown though, since buses serve a different demographic than commuter rail, which is more expensive and unaffordable for some. 

Private entities taking over for Woonsocket and Newport?  That would be impossible, no mass transit system nowadays is self sufficient financially.  The point is that alternatives need to exist for those who can't afford/do not want cars.  Plenty of people in Newport and Woonsocket rely on RIPTA for their daily transportation needs.  Have you ever been to these areas?  They're not leafy suburbs.  Woonsocket is very diverse and urban, and Newport, if you go beyond the mansions and the tourist BS, is very much a diverse city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No..I live in a bubble! I am contributing to this with my own thoughts and opinions ...which is not what you're doing.You seem content on brushing aside my opinions when you have supplied none of your own..What would youl ike to see done differently? We are in "Downcity Topics", right? I originally replied to Garris as he had asked me what I would do differently.I am interested in what you would like to see as I respect someone else's viewpoint.I also don't expect everyone to agree with me, as I would appreciate someone else's input..

[Recchia]

No..I live in a bubble! I am contributing to this with my own thoughts and opinions ...which is not what you're doing.You seem content on brushing aside my opinions when you have supplied none of your own..What would youl ike to see done differently? We are in "Downcity Topics", right? I originally replied to Garris  as he had asked me what I would do differently.I am interested in what you would like to see as I respect someone else's viewpoint.I also don't expect everyone to agree with me, as I would appreciate someone else's input..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I am trying to change your opinions by stating some facts, thats all. I would initially like RIPTA to do simple things to better itself (signage, actually being on schedule, shorter headways, etc. especially on the trolleys, many of the things that have been brought up in the RIPTA threads like the high service routes they have in Portland). Then I would like to RIPTA get into fixed-guideway transit, starting with a LRT oR BRT down through South Providence to Park Ave/Wellington Ave in Cranston (this could realistically become a reality). Once commuter rail is up and running, maybe feeder bus service into certain stations. The RIPTA thread here is full of great ideas, most of which I agree with.

[runturtlerun]

Virgo 20, I tend to agree with some of your points. But, one problem with your argument that I see is the fact that the traditional spoke and hub transit system doesn't exactly exist in Rhode Island. In other words, Providence unfortunately does not provide enough jobs for all of its residents. Many, many service jobs are located outside of the city and routes, such as the 12/14 are the only means, besides a car, to get to them. These are low-wage jobs that Providence residents are dependent upon for their livelihood (i.e. the staff at hotels around the airport).

Now, in my opinion, the issue of sprawling commercial development and the increase in reverse commuting patterns is a whole other issue/can of worms ...

[Frankie811]

Work is almost done on a riverwalk and park along the west bank of the Providence River.

http://www.projo.com/metro/content/projo_2...2.1867a022.html

[Frankie811]

http://www.projo.com/metro/content/projo_2...4.131bb3d1.html

[Cotuit]

From the Dwell on Design - October/November 2005 email newsletter:

A recent trip to Providence, Rhode Island, helped restore my faith in people

[Frankie811]

Hey, where's TheAnk been? He hasen't posted anything in a while and I haven't seen him around for quite some time.