PROPOSED: Grant's Block

[AriPVD]

Looks like the city went through a lot of planning to develop Weybosset St into a two way street for nothing.

Frankie, what are you talking about? The two-waying of Weybosset is a prerequisite for building a parking garage on the Grant's Block site. Not to mention two-way streets create much better urban environments than one way streets. With or without a garage on the site, Weybosset and Empire should be returned to two way systems.

[Jerry2]

my beef with the argument that no one likes an empty building is that all too often the developers are the ones who make the liability, but emptying the building. Not saying that's what cornish did but certainly it is a tactic that has been used more than once around here. that and the old chestnut that the building came down because no one was interested in buying and rehabbing, which is usually total b*llsh*t. Some examples:

AAA Surgical on Atwells, the Fruit Hill Ave School, The Trolley Barn, etc.

.

The woman is 100% right on this one. While those examples were of a tad higher historical value, this downtown block had storefronts lined all the way around. At one point, if anyone remembers, Johnny Rockets was going to remodel and open up a location in that same block on Union St. where Strawberries and the Hallmark store were behind Dunkin Donuts.

[Frankie811]

The main objective of this project was to get Traverlers Aid and all the homeless people out of the downtown area. Mission accomplished. Now, instead of people hanging around Union St all day they have been relocated to the corners of Broad St & Service Road 7. So now what do we do with this prime piece of land? Since Cornish cannot make up their minds, I say sell it to Johnson & Wales. Classrooms, dorms, maybe a garage...................

[CtownMikey]

I know that the dorms are completely over-loaded... what about a mixed use building of dorms on the weybosset side, parking in the center of the lot, and apts/lofts on the westminster side with retail on the ground?? the dorm side could be 15 stories and loft/apt side could be 20?

[Cotuit]

Until Cornish releases plans, I'll take what the ProJo has to say with a grain of salt, this would not be the first time they got something wrong. As to speculating what should go there instead... Cornish owns the site, they didn't say they aren't or can't build. They've said all along that they need Weybosset to be two-way to get the garage built, and they are going to need to 'work' with the city to get it built. If the city hasn't got their act together yet on a parking plan and hasn't released an official timetable on making Weybosset two-way, what exactly does everyone expect Cornish to do? They could just pave it and park cars at $10 a pop until the city gets it's act together. It sounds like, from what Ari has said, and from what the ProJo printed (bearing in mind thier facts are in question) that Cornish is eager to have anything but a parking lot on this site, though I imagine parking will make up at least a part of any temporary use.

How about instead of speculating what someone else should do with property that Cornish owns, we take advantage of the opportunity we have of having a representative of Cornish among us, and make suggestions about what Cornish should do with the space until they are ready (whatever it is that is keeping them from being ready) to build on the site. Cornish has been very open to public input about Westminster Street, I'm positive if someone suggests something feasible, Ari will bring it to the attention of the decision makers.

Looks like the city went through a lot of planning to develop Weybosset St into a two way street for nothing.

Two-way Weybosset and Empire have nothing to do with Cornish. The city planned that (and two-way Washington) long before the Grant's Block plan came along. It is Cornish that is waiting around for the city to get the show on the road (if you will), not the other way around.

[Frankie811]

Well, I see nothing wrong with many here being upset at seeing such a large parcel of land sit idle for years while plan after plan goes nowhere. I'm wondering if there are any laws or ordinances on the books which dictates exactly what a landowner can do with his/her land in the CBD. I don't care. Ari and Cornish can come up with all the reasons and excuses that they can think of. This is inexcusable. And make no doubt about it. The parents of J&W students have made note of it. What a lovely view from McNaulty and Snowden Halls. This is just an example of one businessman biting off more than he can chew. The Chase family has done wonders for downcity, but clearly this was a blunder. I don't think we should have one or two men dictating what occurs in the CBD downtown ( Chase & Paolino ). If another developer came in Union & Weybosset Sts would probably be under development by now. Cornish has it's hands full for goodness sake. They've done their fair share. Retail is back on Westminster St. It's time to pass the torch.

[Cotuit]

If Cornish truly are in over their heads with this parcel, I'm sure they'd sell for the right price. I hardly see Chace and Paolino as dictating what happens Downcity.

And if the J&W parents are so upset, they should also take note of the number of surface lots J&W itself is currently sitting on in the Downcity/JD area. If J&W needs more rooms, they have plenty of land to build them on.

[Garris]

I have to second everything that Cotuit said. I asked on these boards not so long ago what the status is of the 2 way conversion of Weybosset, something that I recalled was supposed to have already long been done by now. The reason I asked was because I recalled that Grant's Block was dependent upon this needing to be done for its parking pattern.

Regarding the city's master parking plan (including, supposedly, the fate of the idea of the huge courthouse parking structure), we're all still waiting for that...

On one hand, this does show how important the city's role in such things can be. There are several major road/pedestrian projects that aren't just random beautifications, but are critical to the success of projects, neighborhoods, and businesses. The 2-way conversions of Weybosset and Empire really, really need to get done. The intersection redesigns fronting E&B and Westin II really, really need to get done. The restoration of Wesminster through Cathedral Square really, really needs to get moving with timetables, dates, and action. In this election season, we need to hold our leaders accountable for this.

On the other hand, Cornish, which deserves the benefit of the doubt here considering their outstanding efforts to date and obvious New Urbanist leanings and leadership, does need to openly acknowledge how the lack of any structure in the Grant's Block space rips at the public's sense of downtown's "being back." The only thing worse than empty storefronts, of which downtown still has plenty, is empty lots.

I'd rather see Cornish put forward a vision of what they would want there in the future once the stars are aligned (preferably on a huge billboard) rather than a temporary anything which, no matter how good Cornish's track record, is a stopgap that the public here in Providence has learned through experience to distrust.

Whatever the resolution, the ProJo editorial is an unfortunate punch in the gut to downcity's efforts, one that it can ill afford to have, especially if it is truly speculation and without insider info as Ari suggests, which would make it quite irresponsible indeed. Once the Dynamo House comes online and the 195 land opens up, I really think public and development attention will turn away from downcity. I really think that the "W" streets have a 6-8 year window to establish themselves for the future before the spotlight shifts and, like it or not, as things stand, Grant's Block is the most important project there.

- Garris

[Cotuit]

On the other hand, Cornish, ... does need to openly acknowledge how the lack of any structure in the Grant's Block space rips at the public's sense of downtown's "being back."

Indeed, I don't want to come off as an apologist for developers, but with the direction of this thread, I thought I'd comment on the other side. I do think Cornish needs to come clean, as much as they can, about the current state of Grant's, their future plans for the site, and what they want to do in the interim (and realistically, how long they expect that interim to last). If they are looking for a temporary use for the spot, open it up to public input. Tell us they have x months (being optimistic on the timbetable by using months, rather than years) and ask for creative ideas for what could/should happen there for those months.

[jencoleslaw]

And if the J&W parents are so upset, they should also take note of the number of surface lots J&W itself is currently sitting on in the Downcity/JD area. If J&W needs more rooms, they have plenty of land to build them on.

damn straight. AND; Let's not tar Ari with the same brush as all developers. Some of us have jobs that require us to not be as forthcoming with information as we'd like to be. I believe that Ari has been more than accomodating with his tidbit dropping. I would hate for him to feel persecuted by this board over something his employer may or may not be doing, and not share information with us anymore.

and i have LOTS of ideas on what could go there temporarily, besides parking! Hey, that should be a bumper sticker for us "Ask me what I think should go there!"

[Cotuit]

AND; Let's not tar Ari with the same brush as all developers. Some of us have jobs that require us to not be as forthcoming with information as we'd like to be. I believe that Ari has been more than accomodating with his tidbit dropping. I would hate for him to feel persecuted by this board over something his employer may or may not be doing, and not share information with us anymore.

Indeed, I very specifically speak about Cornish, not Ari. I'm sure Ari would love to spill everything he knows if he could do so and keep his job. And I imagine there are things where Ari himself is only being told what he needs to know.

[mental757]

Jen sums it up well. Having said that, I think most of the 'backlash' is due to there being no clear plan (that we know of). I hear people talk about the runway extension at TFG the same way. Supporters of it want action, they want the pavers out there yesterday, but it's not that simple. There is a process that has to take place. It's never easy to be supportive of something that you want to happen, but don't know anything about, or even be sure IF it will happen. If Ari says that something WILL happen, thats more than what almost everyone else (not on this board) knows...

[AriPVD]

Thanks for the defense. I am somewhat shocked and appalled by the broad strokes being painted here, especially those based on misinformation and speculation. With that said, I do understand that the lack of any public comment seems to insinuate that we've somehow abandoned our intentions of building on the site. This is less than correct.

I am becoming more hesitant to post on here simply because I think there is a disconnect that can't be overcome within internet forums. I think people are forgetting or ignoring how many factors affect development, including municipal policy, state policy, federal policy, real estate markets, weather, lawsuits, liability, desire, whim, money, etc etc. I could go on all day. We intend to build a mix of parking, housing and retail on that site as soon as we feel that everything is in place to begin the project. We will be working on temporary programming for the site until construction begins. That is my last comment on Grant's Block in this forum. Thanks.

[Cotuit]

This downtown block had storefronts lined all the way around. At one point, if anyone remembers, Johnny Rockets was going to remodel and open up a location in that same block on Union St. where Strawberries and the Hallmark store were behind Dunkin Donuts.

And all but one of the retail spaces on Grant's Block was empty. And Johnny Rockets never came Downcity, they went to the mall. And Downcity is anything but lacking vacant retail locations. It's not as if taking this building out means that we don't have any room left for retail.

I much prefer the vacant lot as is then the decrepit shell of a building that was there. I'd rather have the light coming in and the passive use that the lot gets now as is vacant, than have to wait a 6 to 36 months for a vacant hulk to get knocked down and rebuilt.

This isn't my opinion of all demos, I'd rather have a vacant AAA Surgical Supply on Atwells, than the hole in the ground that might someday become Belmont Castle for instance.

[DaveRPI]

Thanks for the defense. I am somewhat shocked and appalled by the broad strokes being painted here, especially those based on misinformation and speculation. With that said, I do understand that the lack of any public comment seems to insinuate that we've somehow abandoned our intentions of building on the site. This is less than correct.

I am becoming more hesitant to post on here simply because I think there is a disconnect that can't be overcome within internet forums. I think people are forgetting or ignoring how many factors affect development, including municipal policy, state policy, federal policy, real estate markets, weather, lawsuits, liability, desire, whim, money, etc etc. I could go on all day. We intend to build a mix of parking, housing and retail on that site as soon as we feel that everything is in place to begin the project. We will be working on temporary programming for the site until construction begins. That is my last comment on Grant's Block in this forum. Thanks.

thats too bad that people started to ruin it for ya'

i enjoyed you matter-of-fact posting of this project and others

[Lone Ranger]

I think next time I'll make use of the PM feature.

[bhooley]

Thanks for the defense. I am somewhat shocked and appalled by the broad strokes being painted here, especially those based on misinformation and speculation. With that said, I do understand that the lack of any public comment seems to insinuate that we've somehow abandoned our intentions of building on the site. This is less than correct.

I am becoming more hesitant to post on here simply because I think there is a disconnect that can't be overcome within internet forums. I think people are forgetting or ignoring how many factors affect development, including municipal policy, state policy, federal policy, real estate markets, weather, lawsuits, liability, desire, whim, money, etc etc. I could go on all day. We intend to build a mix of parking, housing and retail on that site as soon as we feel that everything is in place to begin the project. We will be working on temporary programming for the site until construction begins. That is my last comment on Grant's Block in this forum. Thanks.

I hope you know you have more supporters, by far, than detractors. The people in this forum should realize they're lucky to have a resource like you here.

There is a certain attitude here that pops up once in awhile, I hope it gets squashed.

[glassandsteel]

I got your back Ari! I have faith in Cornish considering all they've done. So everyone chill.

[Jerry2]

And all but one of the retail spaces on Grant's Block was empty. And Johnny Rockets never came Downcity, they went to the mall. And Downcity is anything but lacking vacant retail locations. It's not as if taking this building out means that we don't have any room left for retail.

That's where you are wrong. The Grant's Block colossal site held Mama's Metro Cafe, Dunkin Donuts, Continental Clothing,and a beauty supply store....as well as Travelers Aid. It wasn't the prettiest block nor the cleanest but it added to the urban streetscape.When Travelers Aid left, that building could have been made into temporary offices for state workers,displaced rtists, or leased by any of the colleges that are choking the downtown area. As far as vacant retail downtown, it has already been expressed numerous times that there are only a few landlords who are holding out like Pierre Burgersnot and Paolino who have nothing to gain by leasing their extensive properties out. A loophole in the system allows them to remain vacant and earn them a bigger write-off at the end of the year. Both "developers" or whatever you want to call them are nothing more than real estate speculators who are waiting for the right time to unload these properties to fatten their wallets while they have absolutely no obligation to the city or care to engage in civic pride of the revitalization of downcity. They would rather see downtown succeed because they will profit from that, but they are counting on the appreciation of the past few years to continue to coast along . And if they can get some schmuck to pay their exorbitant rents along the way in a poorly maintained building, why not? They're not stupid. They're business people taking advantage of the fact that PVD does next to nothing pro-active in terms of remediation of this problem.

I much prefer the vacant lot as is then the decrepit shell of a building that was there. I'd rather have the light coming in and the passive use that the lot gets now as is vacant, than have to wait a 6 to 36 months for a vacant hulk to get knocked down and rebuilt.

[Frankie811]

Here are my last comments concerning this subject. Exactly how many major colleges or universities, which are located in the downtown or CBD of a major city, have so many vacant lots in such close proximity to it's main campus? Take a look at Weybosset St and the surrounding area. What a disgrace. And look at what we have sitting across from J&W's main dorm. A large surface parking lot no doubt. Call it what you want but there are cars parked there and the movie "Underdog" is finished filming downcity so there is no excuse there anymore. Not to mention that I've seen homeless people make this lot their home. What's next? A tent city!? Parcel 9 in Capitol City ( GTECH ) would probably be vacant now if former Mayor Vincent Cianci let it be. He forced Capital Cities Property to market and develop that site into what it is today, even though the 1st proposal didn't quite make it. I will do whatever it takes politicially to persude Providence's mayor to declare this land eminient domain so that it can be fruitfully marketed and developed into a useful project. If "Buff" ( good grief ) Chase really cares about downtown Providence he'll let this one go. What a shame!

[Cotuit]

That's where you are wrong. The Grant's Block colossal site held Mama's Metro Cafe, Dunkin Donuts, Continental Clothing,and a beauty supply store....as well as Travelers Aid. It wasn't the prettiest block nor the cleanest but it added to the urban streetscape.When Travelers Aid left, that building could have been made into temporary offices for state workers,displaced rtists, or leased by any of the colleges that are choking the downtown area.

There was only one tax paying tenant in that block at the time that Cornish demolished it, and it wasn't Cornish who made the other tenants leave.

Do you have any idea what it would have cost to create temporary uses in that rotting hulk that met post-Station Fire codes? I can tell you for sure, that no one was going to touch it on a temporary basis. Thanks to decades of neglect and the poor initial construction, the only option for that block was demolition, be it Cornish or someone else. Certainly no college or university was going to risk putting any of thier students in that fire trap.

The crazy homeless people accosting passersby on the Weybosset side of this building in front of the vacant shops was doing nothing to add to the city's streetscape. I stand by my assertion that we are better off with a passively developed vacant lot than we were with what was there.

but any new developments that do come up in PVD....I would like to see cater to somebody that is looking for a long-term investment rather than a quick buck whether that be people,universities,corporations, or whomever investing...

You need to stop mis-targeting your wider frustrations. Believe me I feel your pain on these issues, but you know Cornish is not in this to make money and run. They are investing all they have in remaking Westminster Street.

[Cotuit]

Here are my last comments concerning this subject. Exactly how many major colleges or universities, which are located in the downtown or CBD of a major city, have so many vacant lots in such close proximity to it's main campus?

Like I said, why don't you ask the major property owner of most of those lots, Johnson & Wales University itself why it is sitting on all that land and not developing it? There are plans for Grant's Block, and not only that, there is a brilliant temporary urban space there. That's way more than J&W is doing with it's vacant property.

I will do whatever it takes politicially to persude Providence's mayor to declare this land eminient domain so that it can be fruitfully marketed and developed into a useful project. If "Buff" ( good grief ) Chase really cares about downtown Providence he'll let this one go. What a shame!

That's brilliant, let's chase Buff Chace out of town, that would be great for Providence.

[Garris]

I usually hate to wade into such emotionally tumultulous waters, but I have to say I'm more than mystified (and personally disappointed) at all the vitriol aimed at this project's (and Cornish's) way.

Goodness, look at all of the vaportecture around town that is actually is likely worthy of criticism... Capitol Cove, the Produce Warehouse, all of the street redirections, Providence Piers, The Union Station and Citizen lots, etc, etc. Why this project, which I'm absolutely sure the parties involved would desperately want to do when/if able, is getting people so angry while these other proposals fly under the radar of outrage is beyond me.

And why anyone would look to J&W which, despite some good work, is nevertheless sitting on tons of underdeveloped property and whose presence across the street from many Weybosset storefronts haven't prevented them from being perpetually empty is also hard to understand.

There's so much going on Providence development-wise, so much that is good, and so much that is worthy of suspicion (ex: homes destroyed on Federal Hill for surface parking) that I think we really, really need to tone down the emotionality here and give Cornish some wiggle room. We all know the trends that are happening locally and nationally (anyone see the NYTimes articles about the Las Vegas and Miami project implosions?) to intellectually understand this process.

- Garris

[mr2448]

Here are my last comments concerning this subject. Exactly how many major colleges or universities, which are located in the downtown or CBD of a major city, have so many vacant lots in such close proximity to it's main campus? Take a look at Weybosset St and the surrounding area. What a disgrace. And look at what we have sitting across from J&W's main dorm. A large surface parking lot no doubt. Call it what you want but there are cars parked there and the movie "Underdog" is finished filming downcity so there is no excuse there anymore. Not to mention that I've seen homeless people make this lot their home. What's next? A tent city!? Parcel 9 in Capitol City ( GTECH ) would probably be vacant now if former Mayor Vincent Cianci let it be. He forced Capital Cities Property to market and develop that site into what it is today, even though the 1st proposal didn't quite make it. I will do whatever it takes politicially to persude Providence's mayor to declare this land eminient domain so that it can be fruitfully marketed and developed into a useful project. If "Buff" ( good grief ) Chase really cares about downtown Providence he'll let this one go. What a shame!

Well if everyone makes their last statement on this subject, perhaps it should be closed down and never discussed again.

Unlike most of you I remember when most of the vacant lots you currently see along Westminister Street, Washington Street , Union and Acorn Streets, etc had buildings on them. Westminister was the retail center of Rhode Island and upper Westminister was lined with specialty shops. The 50's and 60's saw the end to that. Surface parking lots were the rage. City Hall Hardware, a hardware and appliance shopping store, was in 4-5 different buildings in this area. They needed surface parking to compete with suburban stores and kept consolidating and added parking. Did it work? Obviously not.

These lots are still vacant, even with plans over the years. The only new building has been the Federal Building that has the IRS and SS in it. I would prefer that these vacant expanses be built on rather than the continued demolition that has taken place the last 6 months in the down city area. The Grant building could have had continued first floor retail and then the upper floors could have been closed as they probably have been for a long time. In fact many other buildings have had their upper floors closed off for many years.

As I stated before the Grant Block should have been torn down only when financing was completed and this should always be the case before construction on sites that are not vacant. It only takes a week to bring down a building, but in some cases it takes upwards of 50-60 plus years to put one up in DC Providence.

We need to get rid of the tax advantages currently in place for the Paolino family, I meant holders of vacant DC property, which holds many of these vacant lots. As the value of the land increases their write off increases. There needs to be a tax on unimproved vacant(parking) lots in the DC area. We need multiple floor parking rather than surface parking. If you need surface parking then pay dearly for it.

Curious, does anyone know if all the new college holdings, J & W, Brown, RISD, are tax exempt? If so, will the Capitol Center projects bring in enough taxes to replace their tax loss?

One last note. Ari, I really appreciate the knowledge advantage you bring to this forum. Also, the loyalty you have to your employer. Just try to convince them to go with the original plans and keep the renaissance going.

Mark

[Cotuit]

Curious, does anyone know if all the new college holdings, J & W, Brown, RISD, are tax exempt? If so, will the Capitol Center projects bring in enough taxes to replace their tax loss?

They are tax exempt, however, all three of those schools do make payments in lieu of taxes to the city. I do not know if those payments cover the actual lost tax value or not, I assume not. One could argue, and one would be right to a degree, that the tax exempt university properties generate more businesses which pay taxes, although the ring of vacant property around J&W disprove this theory. I don't know about Brown, I believe they have a few surface lots in the JD that they are waiting for 195 to come down to develop, the lot across from the BioMed Building on Ship Street being one of those if I am not mistaken. RISD only owns one sizable surface lot, and that is on the east side of the river on South Water Street. They have other parking lots, but not vast seas of parking, they could and should be built on though. RISD doesn't own any surface lots Downcity, I'm sure it wishes it did though.