Winston-Salem

[orulz]

By the way, I made that map in Adobe Illustrator. It took a long time to make (well, a lot of that time was spent learnign since I'd never used Illustrator before.)

I've been working on a revised version with a couple more potential routes (notably a few connections to Hampton Roads, VA) as well as some corrected errors.

[james_rivers]

I'm sure that in time that will change, but it is sort of a shame to see that style of segregation. I really wasn't aware that it existed at all, at least not like you describe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Norff,

Other users have made the segregation point pretty well, but I'd like to back up my "fence" comment so you don't think it came from thin air.

In the West End, an upscale area of Winston that's within easy biking distance of downtown, schools and parks, there's a street that borders a significantly poorer neighborhood. I don't think that the poorer area is part of the "historic district" of the West End.

Anyhow, I have a friend who lives on the border street (I think it's 4th) and if you walk from his back yard onto the lot that sits behind him, the economic drop off is instant. But, you can't do that, b/c there is a fence behind his house that separates the lots and huge bushes on his side to keep either side from seeing the other. The fence runs the length of the border as far as I could see. My friend pointed out that it's not just a class line, but also a race line (as those two tend to run together, at least in my experience with the Urban South).

[james_rivers]

In all honesty I did visit Winston back in the fall/late summer and downtown was dead that evening--I mean there were like 5 people out and it actually seemed sort of dark. Elm street in Greensboro was bustling with activity--I was shocked by that alone. I'm not saying that Greensboro nightlife is better than Winston nightlife, but giving an example of how timing is everything when you're forming an impression of a place. Don't judge based on one event/visit.

And what is up with this off-topic Charlotte and Raleigh bashing? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To jump back a page (again), here's a quick Winston nightlife update. There are a few ventures into kicking up downtown, especially for those with disposable income. Recently, downtown opened a Wine Bar (6th and Vine), Microbrewery (just opened on St. Pattys) and a Mellow Mushroom is coming this summer. These aren't towers, but they are signs of life that weren't there a year ago. The streets are far from bustling and there's not enough interesting places to make you want to walk downtown for fun on a Friday night, but, you know, "baby steps."

[twincity]

Winston-Salem's vibrancy is not as obvious as other NC cities because its not concentrated in one area ( ex. Tryon in CLT and Elm in GSO). but its there. The most successful areas of downtown are at the edegs. The always overlooked Burke St., on the far west side has plenty night life. The only thing that its lacking to accomdate the heavy foot traffic is decent lighting and sidewalks. Everytime I visit the Arts district there is plenty of foot traffic and very little available parking. All the new construction and proposals on Trade are a sign of success. Now Liberty St. will see the same.

Yea you're right james, but still keep in mind that 4th street will drastically change for the better this summer. the Nissen Apartments and the 2 new hotels will add plenty more life directly to 4th. The Nissen tower will be complete sometime this sumemr, the Marriott will be complete in May and the Embassy Suites in July. These are labeled as the 2 best hotels in the Triad (arguably) with top notch convention facilties. Plus 6 restauraunts are planned to open up this spring/summer, in the 4th street area. that does not inlcude the new microbrewery and the Paisley Pineapple proposed for Liberty.

[ncguy06]

I know its off topic but have any of you been to The Grecian Corner(right in front of Baptist Hospital). Man that place has awesome food!!

by the way grecian(greek) looks like its spelled wrong but its not. lol

[eddard]

I know its off topic but have any of you been to The Grecian Corner(right in front of Baptist Hospital). Man that place has awesome food!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, it's excellent!!

I don't live far from the there but I tend to forget about it

Did you know that they filmed part of the movie "Mr. Destiny" there? It's the pizza parlor Jim Belushi takes Linda Hamilton to on their date. The next time you are there, look on the wall to your right as you go into the rear dining room. There is a collection of pics from the filming.

I always wondered why they changed the name of the place to Mr. Pizza in the movie instead of just calling it what it is.

IMO, Grecian Corner sounds a lot more catchy

Have you tried Burke St. Pizza just up the hill?

[ChiefJoJo]

No Airport representation

No amtrak

Worst bridges in the state

and now a delayed ...again urban loop.

I say this Winston's greatest problem.  The transportaion infrastructure needs a big update.  The Northern beltway would have corrected a lot of traffic issues on the western side of the city,  but now it is delayed once again for another 3 years.  This time, blame it on lack of funds.  NCDOT is so backwards in there thinking. and almost blind to certain facts.  Greensboro just widened I-40 to 10 lanes, the urban loop is being constructed, Jamestown is getting a by-pass? and now High Point is finishing up its bypass.  What road construction is going on in forsyth county?...2 bridge replacements on Bus. 40.  What does it take for NCDOT to see that Forsyth County, maybe in a short period of time, will need much wider highways and twice as many thouroughfares.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know a lot of specifics about that project but i do know that it has been the subject of at least one lawsuit, and it has not had a lot of support from the community--indeed a lot of opposition. Bottom line is that NCDOT doesn't have the power to build a new road if there is significant local opposition. There is a process and sometimes it can be painstaking for those that support new roadway construction.

FYI:

Info on the Beltway project is here. Here is the thoroughfare plan for Winston-Salem and this is a link to the MPO's 2030 Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP). This is the SE High Speed Rail Corridor Website.

[twincity]

opposition was in the past. The beltway was back in the news a few months ago, providing information workshops detailing the effects on neighborhoods and the route it would travel. No opposition was presented...of course, some still remains like with any major project, but this beltway was well supported from both Winston-Salem leaders and residents;and suprisingly Greensboro leaders. The turnout was even greater than the past. This time, its all about lack of funds.

[ChiefJoJo]

opposition was in the past.  The beltway was back in the news a few months ago, providing information workshops detailing the effects on neighborhoods and the route it would travel.  No opposition was presented...of course, some still remains like with any major project, but this beltway was well supported from both Winston-Salem leaders and residents;and suprisingly Greensboro leaders.  The turnout was even greater than the past.  This time, its all about lack of funds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There really isn't alot of money right now to do these projects. Most areas--especially the Triangle--will suffer from the lack of funds. Projects are more expensive to construct, and there are often plenty of road-blocks (pardon the pun). If the project had moved ahead on it's previous schedule, it would likely be on better footing at this point, so that's the way it goes, I'm afraid. People often ask why it takes so long to get these projects built. The question always comes from those who favor the projects--there is an entire group of environmental resource agencies and local citizens groups that do not want these projects built, and for them, I'd guess they'd say it doesn't take long enough.

[yadkinv]

The Grecian Corner was originally a Minnie Pearl Fried Chicken.

Also, it seems that no matter what, Winston-Salem is off the beaten path - air, rail, and interstates.

[orulz]

One feather in Winston's cap is how Business 40 and Hwy 52 intersect immediately adjacent to the CBD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I Was just reading through old threads and came across this post.

How could a massive cloverleaf intersection between two controlled access highways immediately adjacent to the CBD be a good thing? "Because it makes it easy to find downtown!?" In any other city all you have to do is drive on any interstate through the city and look for the sign that says "Downtown." Seems like the presence of these two highways that intersect at the CBD are an obstacle for the growth and development of downtown.

Don't get me wrong; Green 40 and US 52 aren't too bad as far as urban highways go, because they're not too wide and have plenty of bridges maintaining surface street connections, but even so having a highway there can't possibly help things out. For one thing, as Norff Carolina pointed out, Winston-Salem Union Station is on the opposite corner of the cloverleaf, which means connecting it with downtown is going to be a monumental task.

At any rate, we'll see how things develop from here. Things aren't happening too fast in Winston (or anywhere else in the state besides Charlotte for that matter) so don't be holdin' your breath. But I'm sure the result will be a positive one.

[twincity]

I have to disagree. Its a fact that highways, no matter what type of intersection, spur (not hinder) development for downtowns, especially high rise. This is probably a key reason why W-S has the skyline it has today. when developers put time and creativity into a tall building, they want their efforts to be noticed. US52 and Bus. 40 provide excellent visability. Like ive always said, this is probably a key reason why Greensboro and Durham have weaker skylines, with very little signs of anything tall in the near future. Notice how 2 of Greenboro's tallest front I-40 hard with a 3rd proposed near US68/I-40. Also US 52 is a major reason for the development of the 180 research park.

Think of the cities that have highways that travel into or very close to downtown, and then think of how well developled the CBD is. I-95 cuts right through Richmond, which is seeing a healthy number of proposals.

Union Station is being pursued by WSSU. I dont know if they plan to redevlop the building into classrooms or convert it back to a train station. If they do, i dont think it will be the main stop in the city. Another station is proposed in PTRP to serve downtown. Even if Union Station ends up being the main hub, it wont be a monumental task, aas stated. The tracks, bridges, intersection etc. are already routed into downtown. Only thing needed is some rehabilitation which is happening now throughout the city.

[JunktionFET]

The urban freeway thing is an interesting issue and it goes both ways. For one, unfortunate as it may be, downtowns with easy freeway access often have a greater chance at being an employment hub--simply because most suburban residents are lazy and don't wish to navigate a bunch of grid streets and stoplights on their way to work... they just want to take a minimal number of large roads and get there. Suburban office parks are convenient, but a convenient and safe downtown will win over most people.

On the other hand, freeways (partially elevated in this case) are ugly, noisy, and very often act as socioeconomic dividers in a city... i.e. cross under the viaduct and you're in the ghetto, etc. From what I remember of the I-40/US52 monster in Winston, it does a great job of separating downtown from the south and east side, and that isn't necessarily a great thing.

The presence of these two freeways in downtown Winston does help PTRP in a way because it forces higher density development--crossing either freeway would be extremely expensive.

One of the most elegant solutions is placing the freeway in a cut and capping it, or just bury the whole thing. You can effectively keep your convenience while preserving connectivity. Maybe someday an option like this will be persued. I think it would be possible in sections along I-40 and US52.

And regarding the old Union Station, as just a matter of principle I wish there was a way for Winston to reclaim it for active passenger rail and multimodal use. I've been led to believe that Winston is very attached to its history, and I would think that if any city in the state persued such a project, it would be Winston. I suppose time will tell.

If there is a HSR routing through Winston, Union Station may well be considered as a more primary train hub in the city. If restored to full multimodal use, the presence of the station could help drive some very nice development immediately nearby--maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing

Raleigh long since levelled its old Union Station and even the tracks that fed it, Charlotte had two stations at one time and both have been levelled, Durham killed its historic station, so did Cary. I'm glad Greensboro has preserved and upgraded their old Southern Railway station, and I can't wait to use it! Are they the only major city in the state that has reclaimed their historic depot into a functional multimodal station?

[yadkinv]

I agree with TwinCity, but will take it one step more. Specifically, it cannot just be any old highway running through downtown, it should, nay must, be an Interstate designated highway. So, it is unfortunate that the "new I 40" in W-S was not designated I 840 as it was completed before that was assigned to Greensboro's beltway. However, since that is now done, what is now Green 40 (some said it's "too bush" for a city like W-S; the NC Highways site, I think) should, nay must be designated I 1040, which of course, we be the firast 4-digit Interstate in the nation. This is necessary because all of the even digits for I 40 are now taken in the State.

US 52 is also not good enough. It should be I 74 (actually I 73 - read the history), but NCDOT has "decided" to assign that designation to the eastern leg of the W-S beltway. This is clearly a violation (regardless of previous comments of the numbering mechanism applied through out the nation). Anyway, that's how NCDOT sees it now with I 274 assigned to the western leg, which should confuse things nicely, but it's better than no Interstate designation at all. Also, at least US 52 by the PTRP should end up with an Interstate designation, since the latest NCDOT version extends I 285 north of it's original junction with I 40 to its junction with I 74 and I 274.

Regarding the old train station, it seems likely that WSSU will acquire it, which is really too bad, since who knows what they will do with it? It is an extraordinary example of art deco style, and really should be preserved. Hey, why not move it to PTRP? If, the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse can be moved, certainly the W-S train station can be as well!

[orulz]

I have to disagree.  Its a fact that highways, no matter what type of intersection, spur (not hinder) development for downtowns, especially high rise.

I guess I didn't really do a good job at explaining my thoughts on the subject. Of course the highways are a boon to downtown development; however, they nearly guarantee that anything that happens downtown will STAY in the northwest corner of the US-52/Green 40 intersection. I don't know the town very well but it seems from reading the posts here that the areas to the east and south of downtown are relatively neglected. So, great things may happen downtown, but it will be very difficult for those great things to spread to the other side of 40/52.

Also, I'll say my opinion that a successful downtown is not measured by how many tall buildings it has. The large employment centers often provided by skyscrapers are important, but the activity down on the street is an extremely important part of the equation as well. Controlled-access freeways, particularly elevated structures, are black holes for pedestrians. They're scary and inconvenient to cross - so anything on the other side of the highway can barely even be called part of downtown.

Think of the cities that have highways that travel into or very close to downtown, and then think of how well developled the CBD is.  I-95 cuts right through Richmond, which is seeing a healthy number of proposals.

I can see that our opinions differ on the subject of I-95 in Richmond. The first thing one notices is how it cuts through like five feet from Main Street Station (probably no more than 20 feet from it, for crying out loud.) That's unbelievably insensitive to such a beautiful, historic, and functional architectural gem. I haven't been to Richmond for a long time, but aren't all of the skyscrapers located to the west of I-95, anyway?

Union Station is being pursued by WSSU.  I dont know if they plan to redevlop the building into classrooms or convert it back to a train station.  If they do, i dont think it will be the main stop in the city.  Another station  is proposed in PTRP to serve downtown.  Even if Union Station ends up being the main hub, it wont be a monumental task, aas stated.  The tracks, bridges, intersection etc. are already routed into downtown.  Only thing needed is some rehabilitation which is happening now throughout the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Regarding the old train station, it seems likely that WSSU will acquire it, which is really too bad, since who knows what they will do with it?  It is an extraordinary example of art deco style, and really should be preserved.

I found this article stating that $1.3 million dollars were allocated towards the purchase of Union Station in 2004. Did that purchase fall through?

Hey, why not move it to PTRP?  If, the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse can be moved, certainly the W-S train station can be as well!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That'd be pretty cool, except for the whole money problem. Do you know how much it cost to move the hatteras lighthouse? When all was said and done, About FIFTEEN MILLION dollars for its half-mile journey. You'd have to move the station about that same distance, but you have those pesky highways in the way, so it would probably end up costing even more. Nah, it'd be better to have the two-station setup seen in the map posted by Norff Carolina, where intercity trains are served at Union Station, but commuter trains stop there for WSSU and transfers to intercity trains, and then continue through to 4th St.

[orulz]

Are they the only major city in the state that has reclaimed their historic depot into a functional multimodal station?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Multimodal station? Perhaps. But there are plenty of old train stations still being used as train stations in the state. Most notable, perhaps, are Rocky Mount and Salisbury.

[yadkinv]

I'm not sure the highway intersections drive the develoment so much. If the impetus, and other growth factors are present, a way will be found as demonstrated in numerous slightly larger cities nationwide. Even if it is a factor, it adds to density, which is important to many skyline buffs. Also, if the highway is elevated, pedestrian friendly ways can be under, and if not, they can be over, although more expensive. There is, in Winston-Salem already The Strollway, a delightful pedsestrian way from Trade & Fourth across Green (I can barely type it) 40 all the way to the new Old Salem Visitor Center, and which is yards from the Southeast Gateway (I know it's now simply The Gateway, but I prefer Southeast Gateway). So, there are ways of hooking up areas if warranted.

Regarding the train staiton, the comment was meant to be humurous. My concern is that WSSU wull not keep it as a train staion, which would truly be a shame.

[JunktionFET]

yadkinv, in regards to the "interstate" designation... I do believe that is important to a certain extent, in fact I have made the exact same argument in regards to Raleigh. But I've noticed that most people don't pay much attention to signage. Raleigh's Beltline didn't change in popularity or in development style when it was resigned I-440... it is still known by long-time Raleighites as "The Beltline" or "US1". Reasonable proximity to an interstate is probably a more important consideration, and all of NC's cities definitely have that.

Hell, I still call Green-40 in Winston "I-40" just out of habit. Overall, I think that our state has some of the most unusual freeway signing. Why all the "green" routes in the Triad? Why is the northern portion of Greensboro's urban loop called I-840 (why not use a 3di number from I-85)? Did you know that one section of the urban loop will be a multiplex between West, North, and South (or East, South, and North) interstates? WHY?? Why is I-540 numbered like a spur when it will end up being a loop? North Carolina spits in the face of Interstate naming conventions, it stands to reason that Winston-Salem will end up so illogical. If it made sense, it would be an oddity in the state.

[twincity]

you make some good points orulz. while dowtown has expanded pass the bus. 40 boundary, i doubt it will ever cross us52. that side of the city, known as East Winston, sees very little new development. the only driving forces in building up east winston is WSSU, Liberty CDC, and the Housing Authority. there have been some new activity in recent months, new constrution and a new company at Winston-Salem business park and development of the Airport Business Park, but it doesnt compare to the attention that the rest of the city is seeing. Chancellor Harold Martin calls US52 the mythical divide, and is determined to change all that.

[yadkinv]

In the past, WSSU has been part of the barrier unintendedly, of course. You are correct, and more power to the Chancelor for vowing to change that, and presumably he will do so. Actually, with the "new" WSSU in the game, the impetus from PTRP, and the imminent rail system in the Triad, I think development east of I 285 (please, not US 52) is inevitable at first as spill over, and then by design!

[orulz]

I 285 (please, not US 52)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe that US 52 will ever be designated an interstate. The standards for curve radius, shoulder width, exit intervals, and clearences for interstate designation have risen significantly since the time that some other urban interstates were first designated. Green 40 in Winston, the segment of I-240 through downtown and west Asheville, and I-440 between Wade Avenue and I-40 in Raleigh would never earn even a "3DI" designation today. Right now, US 19/23 in north Asheville is called "Future 26" even though it is the exact route that 26 will follow. Why? It's not up to interstate standards.

In order to convert US-52 to an interstate, every single overpass and underpass would have to be ripped out, the lanes and ROW widened, and curves straightened to make it work. That might actually happen in a rural area, but considering it goes right through the heart of Winston, no way. That's a hell of a lot of money just for the supposedly lucrative interstate designation. You might be able to squeeze a Green 73/74 out of it with fewer improvements, but then why bother? everybody already knows of it as US 52, and only the stupidest of out-of-town drivers would look at a map and not see that it's a controlled-access freeway.

If you give it a 2di designation, you would end up having through traffic going directly through your downtown. There would be awful conflict between rush hour commuters and through trucks/buses/whatever. Once again, the I-95 in Richmond scenario: In my limited experience, that sure ain't the smoothest-flowin' piece of interstate in the world, particularly at rush hour. Through traffic is expected to detour onto I-295. But that makes no sense to me... the main through-route is considered a detour? It should be exactly the opposite, with I-95 as the loop through the suburbs, while I-295 goes closer to downtown, only serving traffic with local destinations.

[twincity]

According to the latest interstate designation, US 52 will be designated as I-285, this is coming from NCDOT. the designation should take effect after the widening project is finished, which will be after the completion of I-74. the new ineterstate will be 6-8 lanes between I-40 and the I74/I285 interchange on the northside. Unlike the current construction on Bus. 40, US52 wil not only be more streamline, but wider with all new bridges.

Here is a link to this project's website with the details. The work is well underway determing how to implement this project.

http://www.us52study.com/

an excerpt form the website:

The Plan calls for the widening of US 52 to a continuous six-lane freeway along the 12-mile corridor with additional lanes provided along sections of the corridor that are expected to have higher traffic volumes.

Generally, the Locally Preferred Alternative follows the existing US 52 highway alignment except at three locations: 1) Between I-40 and Mock Street, the highway is realigned to the west of the existing highway to eliminate sharp curves; 2) Between Business 40 and Martin Luther King, Jr. Drive, the highway is realigned to the west of the existing highway to accommodate four additional lanes; 3) Between New Hope Road and the airport, US 52 is realigned to the west of the existing highway to eliminate a sharp curve. Within this area, Liberty Street is relocated to the east of US 52 and becomes a continuous route from 12th Street to the airport. An improved interchange at 27th/28th streets will provide excellent access to the Liberty Street corridor.

Northbound and southbound auxiliary lanes will be added along US 52 at locations of higher traffic volumes between I-40 and Waughtown Street, (future) Salem Creek Parkway and Business 40, and Business 40 and Martin Luther King Jr. Drive. At the University Boulevard and Hanes Mill Road interchanges, a northbound collector-distributor road and a southbound auxiliary lane are provided between the two interchanges because of their close proximity. These types of improvements will help to reduce weaving conflicts for traffic entering and exiting the freeway.

To meet interstate highway requirements, interchange access is consolidated at 12 interchanges over an approximate 12-mile corridor. Full interchanges will remain at I-40, Business 40, Martin Luther King, Jr., Drive, 27th/28th Streets, Akron Drive, Germanton Road, University Parkway and Hanes Mill Road. The Waughtown Street interchange will be upgraded to a full interchange and the 3rd Street interchange will remain a partial interchange. New interchanges are proposed along US 52 at (the future) Salem Creek Parkway and Motor Road.

The overall traffic capacity along US 52 will be increased to meet the forecasted travel demand for the year 2025; this will reduce congestion, particularly at peak travel periods and improve safety of travel along the corridor.

The estimated construction costs for the Locally Preferred Alternative is approximately $425 million and the estimated right-of-way acquisition costs is approximately $35 million (all 2002 dollars). The estimated right-of-way costs do not include costs associated with relocation of displaced properties. The right-of-way impacts are expected to affect approximately 90 buildings and approximately 442 parcels through either partial or full acquisitions for the proposed US 52 Corridor project.

[Metropolitan's]

Winston-Salem is a great city, I belive Winston and Durham will go at it for the next 20 years there both about the same size in popluation and colleges wake and duke are just about the same. I belive If Winston-Salem does not make a move Durham Fayetteville and other cities will over take winston in both poulation and size.

[twincity]

^ Winston's competition is Greensboro and Durham. I seriously doubt, Fayetteville will catch up with Winston...even with their mass annexation. IMO, Fort Bragg is what's keeping that area somewhat thriving.

[RALBOI]

Winston-Salem is a great city, I belive Winston and Durham will go at it for the next 20 years there both about the same size in popluation and colleges wake and duke are just about the same. I belive If Winston-Salem does not make a move Durham Fayetteville and other cities will over take winston in both poulation and size.

Until Winston completes it's next up coming annexation,Durham has already pasted it in population growth according to the latest census reports.